'Aphantasia', Absence of Visual Imagination, Shown Detectable Through Pupil Dilation (unsw.edu.au) 93
Long-time Slashdot reader drinkypoo writes: Researchers at UNSW Sydney have discovered that aphantasia, or lack of visual imagination, can be detected by lack of pupillary response. Pupillary response to both real and imagined objects was measured and compared, and the response to imagined objects was larger in those reporting greater vividness of imagery.
"One of the problems with many existing methods to measure imagery is that they are subjective, that is to say they rely on people being able to accurately assess their own imagery," says Professor Joel Pearson, senior author of the paper. "Our results show an exciting new objective method to measure visual imagery, and the first physiological evidence of aphantasia. With over 1.3 million Australians thought to have aphantasia, and 400 million more internationally, we are now close to an objective physiological test, like a blood test, to see if someone truly has it... We are very close to having objective, reliable tests for extreme imagery, aphantasia and hyperphantasia (extremely strong visual imagery) that could be scaled up to run online for millions of people everywhere,"
Another author on the study sees a larger significance. "These findings further highlight the wide variability of the human mind that can often remain hidden until we ask someone about their internal experiences or invent new ways to measure the mind. It reminds us that just because I remember or visualise something one way, doesn't mean everyone does."
"One of the problems with many existing methods to measure imagery is that they are subjective, that is to say they rely on people being able to accurately assess their own imagery," says Professor Joel Pearson, senior author of the paper. "Our results show an exciting new objective method to measure visual imagery, and the first physiological evidence of aphantasia. With over 1.3 million Australians thought to have aphantasia, and 400 million more internationally, we are now close to an objective physiological test, like a blood test, to see if someone truly has it... We are very close to having objective, reliable tests for extreme imagery, aphantasia and hyperphantasia (extremely strong visual imagery) that could be scaled up to run online for millions of people everywhere,"
Another author on the study sees a larger significance. "These findings further highlight the wide variability of the human mind that can often remain hidden until we ask someone about their internal experiences or invent new ways to measure the mind. It reminds us that just because I remember or visualise something one way, doesn't mean everyone does."
Re: The late 1990s seems like a utopia compared to (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
In other words, a novel way to detect Republicans after being captured and put in a straitjacket. Interesting.
I swear this was the first thing I thought of too. I bet the results tallied across parties would be extremely interesting.
Re: (Score:3)
"I needed to buy some Bitcoin. "
I call bullshit. No one needs to buy Bitcoin.
Blade Runner (Score:2, Informative)
There, I said it.
I bet my ex-wife would have zero response on this test. She's not got a shred of empathy in her head, it's like a foreign land to her.
Re: (Score:2)
Wow, you managed to get a Nexus 6?
Must be expensive!
Re:Blade Runner (Score:4, Informative)
She's not got a shred of empathy in her head, it's like a foreign land to her.
This condition has nothing to do with empathy. It's about being able to visualize something in your mind's eye. Remember the scene from Scott Pilgrim vs The World where Scott visualized putting soy milk in a cup of coffee to throw off the vegan? Aphantasia doesn't allow this visualization.
Since, as usual, there's nothing in the blurb to describe what this condition is, I'll post links to articles so everyone has a better understanding.
Re: (Score:2)
Since, as usual, there's nothing in the blurb to describe what this condition is, I'll post links to articles so everyone has a better understanding.
And? And? The suspense is killing me!
Re: (Score:2)
> And? And? The suspense is killing me!
The lameness filter has no visual imagination.
Re:Blade Runner (Score:4, Funny)
You were supposed to visualize the links in your mind.
You failed the test.
Re: (Score:2)
You failed the test.
I think we're all familiar with the shortcomings of standardized testing...
Re: (Score:2)
Since, as usual, there's nothing in the blurb to describe what this condition is, I'll post links to articles so everyone has a better understanding.
And? And? The suspense is killing me!
I realize I was not specific enough. I should have stated, "I will post links to articles about this condition in a separate post" (or something similar). Which I did. See my post a little further down the page.
Obligatory: Voight-Kampff (Score:2)
Is it to be an empathy test?
Capillary dilation of the so-called blush response?
Fluctuation of the pupil.
Involuntary dilation of the iris.
We call it Voight-Kampff for short.
Re: (Score:1)
Interlinked
Re: (Score:2)
It's not. Aphantasia is not the inability of representing another's emotional state in one's head, it's about forming mental images in one's head.
Re: (Score:2)
"representing another's emotional state" by visualizing yourself in the same state.
but only an issue for low grade code
Re: (Score:2)
What this condition is (Score:5, Informative)
Since, as I stated in an earlier post, there's no description of what his condition is, here are [verywellmind.com] two links [webmd.com] to better explain.
In short, if I tell you to imagine a red apple, you can't do it. Your mind will not produce an image of a red apple in your head/imagination. Same thing if I ask you to picture your best friend's face (when they're not around of course). You won't be able to. From the second link above:
People with this condition may have trouble remembering everyday things, like the number of windows on a building. Most people rely on mental images to jog their memories, so those with aphantasia must use other tactics. They might instead draw on knowledge, memory, or their other senses to help them remember things.
Aphantasia can affect other areas of your life. It might cause you to:
Struggle to remember or “relive” life events
Have a hard time imagining future or hypothetical events
Have problems with your factual memory
Dream less
Re: (Score:3)
As someone who can easily visualize things, I can't imagine* someone living his life like that, I thought everyone was able to do this.
It also explains the lack of imagination of some people I know.
* I fully acknowledge the irony of that expression in this context.
Re: (Score:2)
As someone who can easily visualize things, I can't imagine* someone living his life like that, I thought everyone was able to do this.
It also explains the lack of imagination of some people I know.
* I fully acknowledge the irony of that expression in this context.
To go one step further with a movie reference, if you saw Inception there is a scene early on where they're trying to explain to Saito how difficult it is to have a person create a memory from scratch.
SAITO: If you can steal an idea from someone's mind, why can't you plant one there instead?
ARTHUR: Okay, here's planting an idea: I say to you, "Don't think about elephants."
(Saito nods)
What are you thinking about?
SAITO: Elephants.
ARTHUR: Right. But it's not your idea because you know I gave it to you.
SAITO: You could plant it subconsciously-
ARTHUR: The subject's mind can always trace the genesis of the idea. True inspiration is impossible to fake.
People with Aphantasia are the literal opposite of this. They can't "imagine" an elephant even if they've seen one whereas you or I who are told NOT to think of an elephant will imagine an elephant (which I just did by writing this).
Re: (Score:2)
"Don't think about elephants."
Damn you!
Hey, at least YOU got elephants. (Score:2)
It's a long story.
Re: (Score:2)
People with Aphantasia are the literal opposite of this. They can't "imagine" an elephant even if they've seen one whereas you or I who are told NOT to think of an elephant will imagine an elephant (which I just did by writing this).
We can "imagine" or think about an elephant, just not "see" it.
What we perceive as "imagining" is different to what you perceive.
Re: (Score:2)
We don't get a picture in our heads of elephants but we can still think about elephants. There is no need for something to be visual to think about it.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm jealous. If someone asks me to visualize something, I just can't do it. I used to draw all the time as a child, but I really lost interest in it in my teenage years, and I think this is why. And like the articles mention, it's not just objects; I can recognize faces, but I can't see them in my head. I want to remember what people look like without pictures.
"People with aphantasia do experience visual imagery while dreaming. This suggests that it is only intentional, voluntary visualization that is affec
Re: (Score:1)
I'm pretty sure I'm afflicted with this, as well. The way I try to describe my aphantasia is that I cannot play the game "Memory" where a bunch of cards are placed face down and you're supposed to pick the matching cards. I can't do it. I do not have a way to memorize the pattern. I've found that my "coping mechanism" is an inner monolog of my own that basically replaces the "inner eye." Obviously this is strictly a self diagnosis but I think it fits. I'd be interested to see if this test proved in some
Re: (Score:1)
Oh, that's interesting. I'm quite good at memory games, but I remember things with wordy descriptions instead of images. I've been learning Japanese for a few years, and I use something similar for learning kanji until it sticks. I find that I need to be strict with myself though, and when studying I'll purposely input a wrong answer if I don't recognize it immediately because if I struggle to remember it, then I know it hasn't properly implanted in the 'ol noggin.
I wonder if you were to try playing the mat
Re: (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure I'm afflicted with this, as well.
Not afflicted - it does not seem to be an impediment to life. As you say, we use different strategies.
I'm OK at that game, I can't picture the cards, but remember words associated with them. And spatial memory is different to visual.
Aphantasia does not affect recognition, by the way.
I've found that my "coping mechanism" is an inner monolog of my own that basically replaces the "inner eye."
Some people have no inner monologue. "Imagine" having neither a monolog nor visual imagery. How do those people work?
Re: (Score:2)
Some people have no inner monologue. "Imagine" having neither a monolog nor visual imagery. How do those people work?
Maybe they're just happy? Inner monologue is usually very depressing and self-deprecating. It's like having a second person commenting everything as you go along with your day. It takes a lot of energy and generates fatigue. When I'm in a good mood, I don't actually have a lot of, if any, inner monologue in my head.
Re: (Score:2)
When I'm in a good mood, I don't actually have a lot of, if any, inner monologue in my head.
Do you happen to be in a faraday cage during those good moods? I'm working on a hypothesis.
Re: (Score:2)
Some people have no inner monologue.
See my earlier comment about people not having X also not being aware they don't have X. By "inner monologue" do you mean you can actually hear a voice or voices, or merely that you think a conversation but don't hear it in your head?
Re: (Score:2)
Words in my head, not really sounds. Some people report their inner monologue as having a distinct voice. :)
BTW, "conversation" implies more than one voice in your head, which might not be healthy
Re: (Score:2)
I can recognize faces, but I can't see them in my head. I want to remember what people look like without pictures.
Yep, I can recognise my wife, but I couldn't describe what she looks like.
Re: (Score:2)
A colleague brought up Aphantasia a few weeks ago. Turns out 3 in our group of 15 are unable to create mental images. We all three had the same reaction: "People can actually see things?".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I do. I think I have quite a good memory. But what I remember isn't visually, it's more like a textual description. As I write that, I assume non-aphantasia people will see the things which are described in text...
Re: (Score:2)
I also stopped drawing regularly as I got older, and I think that is a very common experience. I doubt it's related at all to aphantasia.
Re: (Score:3)
[In short, if I tell you to imagine a red apple, you can't do it.]
As someone who can easily visualize things, I can't imagine* someone living his life like that, I thought everyone was able to do this. It also explains the lack of imagination of some people I know.
I think naturally in abstract relations. If you ask me to imagine a red apple, my mind will fill with the network of connections - Snow White, the color relation to the Polish flag, pectin, jam, a doctor a day, my attempt to grow apple trees in my back garden, a google image search for apple clip-art, the Beatles, the garden of Eden, the last time I went shopping, a recent conversation with my wife about needing more apples. I guess a visual rendering of a red apple might pop up somewhere in this sea of con
Re: (Score:2)
The Beatles' apple was green though.
I think they might have had a submarine that was red.
Re: (Score:2)
The Beatles' apple was green though. I think they might have had a submarine that was red.
Yup, anyone who's familiar with their music would know this one.
In the town where I was born
Lived a man who sailed to Tonga
And he told us of his dog
In the land of knee-walking turkeys
So we sailed on to the concert
'Til we found a sea of orange
And we lived beneath the bridge
In our red submarine
We all live in a red submarine
Red submarine, red submarine
We all live in a red submarine
Red submarine, red submarine
And our turtles are all aboard
Many more of them live in a tree
And the band begins to p
Re: (Score:2)
NOW I'm seeing yellow submarines with elephants on them. Gah!! You are an evil person.
Re:What this condition is (Score:5, Interesting)
I have aphantasia and mostly it is a different way of thinking. Imagine walking around your house with all the lights off. Even if you can't see anything you still know where things are. This is just a different way of thinking and since we don't really talk about how we think we don't realize how differently we think from each other.
One of the advantages I have had with aphantasia is working with high dimensional systems. When working with others I find that most people have problems when systems have more than 3-dimensions while for me it doesn't really make a difference.
People with aphantasia still have an imagination they just don't have images. Those are not tied together.
Re: (Score:2)
When working with others I find that most people have problems when systems have more than 3-dimensions while for me it doesn't really make a difference.
Well, I'd expect nothing less from a Vorlon like you.
Re: (Score:3)
For me it's the other way round. I always thought "imagine a red apple in your mind" was just a figure of speech, I didn't think anyone was actually seeing a red apple. I mean how can one see something without it being in front of his eyes? Then I read about aphantasia.
It may explain why I'm very bad at drawing without a model.
But I do have a lot of imagination. It's just not visual.
I wouldn't be surprised if this "condition" (it's more one of the many ways the brain works really?) affects proportionately m
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't be surprised if this "condition" (it's more one of the many ways the brain works really?)
We don't know what the causes are, so it's hard to say.
affects proportionately more programmers than the general population.
Do people with aphantasia more naturally become programmers because they are self-trained at working with abstractions? Do programmers develop it because they are working with things you can't visualize? Or both? (I imagine the first is true at least.)
Re: (Score:2)
If you tell me to visualize a one-dimensional array, I can see it.
If you tell me to visualize a two-dimensional array, I can see it.
If you tell me to visualize a three-dimensional array, I can see it.
If you tell me to visualize a four-dimensional array or higher, I'm fucked.
Re: (Score:1)
Looking at the list of famous people who have this condition [wikipedia.org] it's surprising how many of them are authors or animators. People you'd expect to have a really good visual imagination.
Re: (Score:2)
As someone who can easily visualize things, I can't imagine* someone living his life like that,
It's not really that bad, unless someone tells you about it you don't even know you're missing out on something. I always thought "in your mind's eye" was just a metaphor until someone told me they can actually make pictures appear inside their head. Devil magic!
Makes me wonder what else some people are missing out on that they're not even aware of.
Re: (Score:2)
I'll tell you an easy one that probably affects a lot of Slashdot readers: sex.
Re: (Score:1)
> Have a hard time imagining future or hypothetical events
I always hate it when people ask things like "where do you see yourself in 5 years" because I don't. I don't see myself in 5 years. I can "imagine" my future circumstances, but only conceptually and without any kind of visual element. Basically, I can do the math; "if I work out every day, I'll lose weight" or "if I spend less, I'll have money saved up". But I can't actually imagine it.
Re: What this condition is (Score:2)
This really bothers me too. I can't see myself in 5 months and I have a vivid imagination. Hell, nobody could see just how bad Covid would get when we started hearing about it in 2019.
We are not psychics, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting in front of a moron asking where do we see ourselves in 5 years.
To me it smacks of a type of trick question and another reason for a job application to be put into the round file.
Re: (Score:2)
I always hate it when people ask things like "where do you see yourself in 5 years"
"With only about a year left to go until the statute of limitations finally expires, and I've gotten away with it for the second time. They'll never find those bodies anyway. Sorry, you were saying?".
Re:What this condition is (Score:5, Interesting)
This research on this is very much in its earliest stages. The condition has indeed been identified less than a decade ago. Since then, I've read a couple of papers on it, as well as followed the relevant subreddit for a while and one thing has become certain that this isn't some kind of a disability, and more of a "what kind of a learner are you, visual or audio?" sort of thing.
This fairly famous image shows four sort of distinct stages of how people imagine things:
https://i.redd.it/o1lktd5no9t6... [i.redd.it]
And this seems to have no correlation with other things pshychometry can measure, such as IQ, empathy, creativity, etc. It simply seems to be a difference in *how* people conceptualize things. Artists who draw things can be 5 or they can be 1. It doesn't seem to stop them from being talented at creating images for others to enjoy.
We simply don't know why it is the way it is. It just is. And it doesn't seem to be correlated with any other significant factor (wild speculation aside).
The best hypothesis I've seen on this is that this is about "how one conceptualizes things". Conceptualization can be done via many different routes, visual being just one of them. There was a lot of discussion about this a couple of years ago across twitter and reddit, with many people being genuinely confused about the others who have different methods of conceptualization. Everyone thought that their conceptualization mode was the one that everyone uses, and most found it really difficult to imagine other ways to conceptualize object than those that they use.
This is one example of an interesting test that may help you determine where you fall on the spectrum:
Shamelessly stolen from https://old.reddit.com/r/Aphan... [reddit.com]
Try this: Visualise (picture, imagine, whatever you want to call it) a ball on a table. Now imagine someone walks up to the table, and gives the ball a push. What happens to the ball?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Now, answer these questions:
What color was the ball?
What gender was the person that pushed the ball?
What did they look like?
What size is the ball? Like a marble, or a baseball, or a basketball, or something else?
What about the table, what shape was it? What is it made of?
And now the important question: Did you already know, or did you have to choose a color/gender/size, etc. after being asked these questions?
For me, when asked this, I really just sort of conceptualize a ball on a table. Like, I know what that would look like, and I know that if a person pushed it, it would probably roll and fall off the edge of the table. But I'm not visualizing it. I'm not building this scene in my mind. So before being asked the follow up questions, I haven't really even considered that the ball has a color, or the person a gender, or that the table is made of wood or metal or whatever.
This is contrasted when I ask other people this same thing, and they immediately have answers to all of the follow up questions, and will provide extra details that I didn't ask for. IE, It was a blue rubber ball about the size of a baseball, and it is on a wooden, oval shaped table that's got some scratches on top, etc. That's how I know that the way they're picturing this scene is different and WAY more visual than how I am.
I like to think of it as "visualizing" vs "conceptualizing". I don't think of it as a disability or something to be freaked out about, though it is definitely strange to think about. It isn't a hindrance for me at all, I have excellent spatial reasoning and a really good memory, and I'm good at abstract thought, I just think about things differently than most other people."
Re: (Score:2)
As far as we know, outside the "let's medicalise human condition so we can sell you a treatment" crowd, no one thinks of this as a "dis"order. It's simply one of the potential state of ordering things that fall within the spectrum of "how normal human beings think, behave and act".
Re: What this condition is (Score:2)
Somewhat off topic, but I wonder if people even see/process colors in the same way.
What looks like a red apple to me now might look purple or green if I saw it through someone else's eyes and mind.
Would explain "favorite colors" and such.
Re: (Score:2)
We almost certainly don't see colors the same way because of how sight works. The system is built on stimuli that comes from individual structure of everything from the specific layout of the individual eye itself to the way nerves formed to compress the signalling as it goes through the optic nerve to the relevant parts of the brain to the way that part of the brain handles the decompression.
Most people don't seem to even know that our eye collects far more visual data than what can be passed through the o
Re: (Score:2)
This fairly famous image shows four sort of distinct stages of how people imagine things:
https://i.redd.it/o1lktd5no9t6... [i.redd.it]
If asked to rank their visualisation on that chart, a person with aphantasia will respond "huh? ... what do you mean? The question makes no sense.".
And this seems to have no correlation with other things pshychometry can measure, such as IQ, empathy, creativity, etc.
Aphantasia has been reported as associated with high IQ, but that may just be a bias in smarter people being more likely to have identified it. e.g. reading Slashdot :-)
This is one example of an interesting test that may help you determine where you fall on the spectrum:
I think the ball visualisation was what convinced me that this is real. I just had the abstract idea of ball and table. What colour is it? - "what colour do you want it to be?" The only thin
Re: (Score:2)
>If asked to rank their visualisation on that chart, a person with aphantasia will respond "huh? ... what do you mean? The question makes no sense.".
Not at all. This is about problems with explaining what "perception" means in a few words. When the topic is explained in more detail, or opened up with the ball thing, I've seen at least a few people who thought they were in category one get better perspective on the question and "oh, that would mean that I'm actually 5".
A lot of 1s and 2s also tend to chan
Re: (Score:2)
For me, I don't have any answer to any of that, because your stage-setting didn't require it. I only imagined some archetypal ball, table and person, then the physics of the interaction. If you want me to visualize a red ball, I can do that, though. The default a smaller one, around the size of a lacrosse ball.
I also wouldn't "choose" an answer to those questions after I had done the visualization, because that'd be lying about what I visualized, when I had just imagined archet
Re: (Score:2)
This is exactly why I found this story so interesting — I believe I have this condition. One quick example is that when playing a memory match game, I don't remember seeing the images, but I do remember [some percentage of] the names. It helps if I say or at least subvocalize them as I see them.
I have to really understand things to remember them. I need to understand why things are laid out in a certain way to remember how they are laid out. I can't remember one feature's relationship to another on a
Could this condition be related to sociopathy? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It would neatly explain a certain burnt-orange segment of the population.
No, no, you're thinking of color-blindness. Everyone who is colorblind is criminally insane.
Re: Could this condition be related to sociopathy? (Score:2)
So people who see in limited colors or greyscale is criminally insane?
Do you have a phrenology degree by any chance?
Re: (Score:2)
Or he might be thinking of left-handed people. They are sinister.
Re: (Score:2)
Or he might be thinking of left-handed people. They are sinister.
I imagine a left-handed colourblind red-headed stepchild twin would give Putin a run for his money.
Imagine, but not visualize...got to stay on topic.
Re: Could this condition be related to sociopathy (Score:2)
This isn't funny as schools in the old days would force kids who were left handed to write with their right one. Because conformity was king and the teacher was the god of the classroom.
The "old days" were not that long ago.
Re: (Score:2)
It really wouldn't. It's not an inability to imagine or empathize, just to visualize. Just because you can't imagine visually doesn't mean you can't imagine usefully.
Quote character failure? (Score:2)
Assuming /. does not embrace Unicode (lots of work) I think the community could assist in some simple regular expressions to substitute common quote characters from iOS and other devices.
I'm happy to help if leadership is interested.
Re: (Score:2)
/. definitely suffers from aquotasia.
Anyone given Putin this test? (Score:2)
Seems his vision lacks imagination ...
Sounds like the Voight-Kampff test (Score:2)
The VK is used primarily by Blade Runners to determine if a suspect is truly human by measuring the degree of his empathic response through carefully worded questions and statements.
Holden: You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of the sudden-
Leon: Is this the test now?
Holden: Yes. You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down-
Leon: What one?
Holden: What?
Leon: What desert?
Holden: It doesn't make any difference what desert, it's complet
Similar tests for audio? (Score:2)
Despite the fact I have been an artist for most of my life, I apparently have aphantasia. It makes composition and sketching extremely difficult, which is why I've never evolved beyond cartoons and abstract art. I learned all the basics in art classes, but I still always sucked at it in practice.
What's interesting is that I have no problem whatsoever with audio and music. If I want to hear Mozart with a full orchestra in my head, I can do so instantly and isolate any single instrument I want. I can hear
Re: (Score:2)
What's interesting is that I have no problem whatsoever with audio and music. If I want to hear Mozart with a full orchestra in my head, I can do so instantly and isolate any single instrument I want.
You suck :-( You just ruined my excuse for why I am so bad at music. As I nerd child I was told because I was good academically, I should be good at music, not tone-deaf, and maybe was just too lazy to practise. On discovering Aphantasia, I thought this might be why I'm bad at music. We humans like to have diagnoses for our deficiencies.
Re: (Score:2)
This bit me when going to art studies too. Although I have a lot of imagination, I was not able to explain my installation projects to my teachers using sketches, due to the fact I couldn't represent them in my head first, and on paper/screen second. I always had to start actually making the damn thing to figure out what it would look like. The teaching staff was very upset with me at first but after a few months they saw I actually managed to do good stuff and they started to trust me a bit.
But now that st
This kinda makes sense for me (Score:2)
There are so may situations where I can't place the visual image at all, yet I can see every detail of a design or engineering project in my head, no problem...
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry - also I am super contextually driven - the context overrides almost every thing else.
I knew someone with aphasia (Score:2)
When I lived with my parents, the woman next door had aphasia, though I did not know it was called that at the time. I discovered this when we were discussing novels. I suppose the common experience is to imagine voices when people speak, and imagine what characters look like, and various scenes, guided by what the author has written. Not the woman next door. She just read the words, with no imagery at all. This did not prevent her from enjoying novels, as far as she was concerned.
I should note that this cu
Re: (Score:2)
FYI "aphasia" means problems talking such as after a stroke. Totally different to aphantasia.
Self-diagnosis: yep, that's me (Score:2)
Reading about aphantasia over the past couple of years has been a personal revelation. Let me take a couple of comments from elsewhere, and add some personal observations.
"If I tell you to imagine a red apple, you can't do it"
This is true, but misleading. I know perfectly well what a red apple looks like. I could describe one in detail, down to the funny freckles you get on some types. But I don't really *see* an apple. The best way I can describe it: it's like I remember the information from *after* it was visually processed - it's in some other form, just not
Re: (Score:2)
Just Check the Age Group (Score:1)
It may be too difficult to diagnose the difference between having this condition versus the age group.