Human DNA Enlarges Mouse Brains 193
sciencehabit writes Researchers have increased the size of mouse brains by giving the rodents a piece of human DNA that controls gene activity. The work provides some of the strongest genetic evidence yet for how the human intellect surpassed those of all other apes. The human gene causes cells that are destined to become nerve cells to divide more frequently, thereby providing a larger of pool of cells that become part of the cortex. As a result, the embryos carrying human HARE5 have brains that are 12% larger than the brains of mice carrying the chimp version of the enhancer. The team is currently testing these mice to see if the bigger brains made them any smarter.
welcome (Score:5, Funny)
I for one welcome our new rodent overlords.
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"He dared to tamper... in God's domain..."
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*I* got it from Mystery Science Theatre 3000. It was the closing line of (I THINK) a Harvey Corman flick, and it became a long running gag that Joel would say it whenever the bad guy died right before the credits.
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LOL you are correct and I always always get them mixed up!
"Look, it's Hedy Lamarr!"
"HEEEEDDDLY....!"
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Sounds like it was originally from an H.G. Wells story, but it was popularized by this Simpson's episode, in which Homer releases the contents of an ant farm inside of a space station, leading the TV anchor to 1. conclude that giant space insects were invading and 2. vow his allegiance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D... [wikipedia.org]
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They are already our overlords. Mice are merely the protrusion into our dimension of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings. This DNA only grows the brain further into our three dimensions.
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Well, I find it difficult to be so enthusiastic about our new Congress.
Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight? (Score:5, Funny)
Does anything ever sound like a bad idea to scientists?
The Secret of NIHM (Score:3, Interesting)
Prophecy. Pure prophecy.
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Creepy (Score:2, Interesting)
We need to start defining lega
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I am not to worried about this test on mice. Now if they tried it on Chimps then things get into the very creepy zone.
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Oblig Simpsons Quote.
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
Oh, Dr. Zaius
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius!
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Just don't name him Caesar and mistreat him.
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What about politicians?
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I'm with the GP post above, we don't know enough about what makes the human brain different from our animal brethren to go around making them more like us without some kind of legal and ethical framework to deal with the results in a way that doesn't make us monsters. Look at it this way, there have been human beings that lived full, healthy lives with average intelligence and only a fraction the brain tissue that typical people have. We simply don't know what it is about the brain that makes us human.
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At that point the only ethical course of action is to give them said rights
Why? It's just a criterion that you made up.
Re:Creepy (Score:5, Insightful)
smart enough to deserve human rights.
Human rights are not based on intelligence. If they were, my brother-in-law would not be allowed to vote. Stupid people and smart people are considered equal before the law, and have the same rights to life and liberty. Even brain dead people with no hope of recovery have greater rights than chimps.
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Human rights are not based on intelligence.
They absolutely are. If we met non-intelligent aliens people would have no trouble treating them as having no rights, as pets, food source, or whatever. If we met intelligent aliens we would treat them as having human rights. Similarly, we may soon have to deal with the question of what sort of rights artificial intelligence have (both computer artificial intelligence, and biotechological artificial intelligence).
The main reasons we give rights to the very young and comatose and mentally handicapped are (in
Re:Creepy (Score:4, Insightful)
If we met intelligent aliens we would treat them as having human rights.
Yet when Europeans encountered black Africans, they denied that they had intelligence, and did not recognize their rights. We did the same for chimps and other primates, which are far more intelligent than was recognized a few decades ago. If history is any precedent, we will give sentient aliens whatever rights are economically convenient, and then make up a post hoc rationale.
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That would be problematic. Our notions are already inconsistent - the lowest-mental-capability humans (The brain damaged, the mentally disabled, the very young) are already far below the level of many animals on practically any scale you could come up with. It's impossible to come up with some 'you must be this advanced to qualify' definition for legal rights that a two-month old child could pass and an adult rodent couldn't. The current approach is to just assume humans are magical creatures and so deserve
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My thoughts on this can be reduced down to: "You gotta root for the home team. Go 46ers!"
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Change this gene in something with a larger brain and you could create animals smart enough to deserve human rights. At that point the only ethical course of action is to give them said rights. The problem is the lack of a proper legal framework for such. ...
We need to start defining legal rights for intelligent, non-human entities immediately.
Totally not necessary:
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Is growing a non-human sapient any different from building a perfect artificially intelligent robot?
Should we be okay with those possibilities, or should we artificially limit ourselves from making such things to begin with?
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Exactly! Any day now they could make a mouse as smart as the pig I ate for breakfast!
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I am not sure what bears would do with weapons. How are they going to use them while we have their arms?
I guess you never read "Bears Discover Fire" [lightspeedmagazine.com] (full text of the short story)
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Better:
The Right To Arm Bears [wikipedia.org]
Or go the opposite direction... (Score:2)
Enter... (Score:2)
The Pinky and the Brain jokes.
Seriously, if we enlarge their brains, are they enlarging their skulls at the same time? Will we soon have butt head mice like the little aliens in Star Trek's "The Cage"? Will they be telepathic???
They'll die. (Score:2)
I think I can predict what would happen to the mice.
It's like when you upgrade a Commodore 64 to a Core I7 and try to run CPM on it. They'll crash and die.
Forget mice - consider dogs, horses, cats, and men (Score:4, Interesting)
Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners. Imagine a dog that really does understand human language... complete with grammar. Lassie, sort my mail then bring me bills and magazines.
Consider a horse that isn't stupid. Able to know when it is needed, what it is to do, and when it is to leave. And possibly the damn things could be taught to take care of themselves a bit better so that the owners don't have to spend as much time fussing over them.
Imagine cats that are not only bred by instinct to depopulate the rat population in the area but that understand that is why you keep them there. Possibly useful as lookouts etc in ways that they're not today.
And then... people... perhaps this can be stimulated further in a human embryo. They've said our brains won't work much better if made larger but no one has put that little theory to the test. It is possible that a modified human could enjoy a qualitative advantage over normal humans comparable to the advantage normal humans have over chimps. And that sort of advantage is worth the swelled head and sore neck.
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It is possible that a modified human could enjoy a qualitative advantage over normal humans comparable to the advantage normal humans have over chimps. And that sort of advantage is worth the swelled head and sore neck.
Didn't they do a study that showed women would give up IQ for breast size? That sort of advantage, to them, being worth a swelled chest and a sore back?
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And I'm sure a baboon would give up some intelligence for a bright blue ass.
Greater intelligence could mean greater capability which could mean wealth and power. And nothing is sexier then wealth and power. Young women will happily jump into bed with a diseased old man if he's rich and powerful enough.
Beyond which, the day is coming when you might just gestate your young in an artificial womb rendering the need to woo or romance or court your mate irrelevant.
Strange days are coming, friend.
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I wouldn't worry about that. The only way VR is going to get that good is if we have full neural interlinks. And if we have that then the flow can go both ways. You can't have real VR without cyborgs. And cyborgs will be more then just VR users... they'll be drone commanders, neural programmers, and possibly mentally augmented with subordinate AIs.
Till then... VR won't be an issue.
A more credible problem might be people that get a wire put into their brains to stimulate the pleasure centers of their brain.
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You pretty much just described an electrical version of MDMA (taken in unsafe doses). I agree, it's probably more of an immediate risk than believable VR. But even visuals plus rudimentary tactile feedback plus the pleasure stimulator you describe could pretty much be "close enough" to immersive VR to put many in a state of permanent incapacity outside the system.
I'm reminded of the Logan's Run episode with the "joy" headsets.
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Easy to regulate. Neurosurgeons are rare enough that the government could easily track them and watch for some under-the-table surgery, and the implant procedure would be prohibitively expensive. Now, a TMS rig might work. It's non-intrusive. Aiming would be tricky.
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You say that but you haven't considered remote surgery. The US army is experimenting with drone surgeons. A soldier carries a backpack, a fellow soldier is wounded, he takes the backpack off and places it on the wound. He then switches it on. It links to a doctor somewhere in the world that controls the drone. With the assistance of the other soldier to act as an onsite nurse, the surgeon can remove bullets, stitch major arteries back together, and close wounds. Instead of a soldier having to wait possibly
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""This cost a lot," she said, extending her right hand as
though it held an invisible fruit. The five blades slid out, then
retracted smoothly. "Costs to go to Chiba, costs to get the
surgery, costs to have them jack your nervous system up so
you'll have the reflexes to go with the gear..."
The USA isn't the only place with surgeons [mylibrarybook.com].
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When given the hypothetical 'magic option' to 'be good at math, but have a fatter ass.' a tiny percentage of women said 'yes', Likely those who already had a fat ass and would not lose the ability to get what they want from men.
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Sure it wasn't a poll of their husbands?
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Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners. Imagine a dog that really does understand human language... complete with grammar. Lassie, sort my mail then bring me bills and magazines.
*wag*.... aroo?... grrrrrr....
Translation: Yaay, I can help! Wait. Nooo! Dammit, I can't sort mail, I have no opposable thumbs! That thoughtless bastard, giving me physically impossible orders! I'm gonna crap in his slippers!
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Men without arms can do it with their nose. Food for thought.
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Men without arms can do it with their nose. Food for thought.
Must resist ... urge ... to FTFY.
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Imagine cats that are not only bred by instinct to depopulate the rat population in the area but that understand that is why you keep them there.
Massive analogy breakdown here. Cats are only out for themselves. If you could wave a wand and make them smart enough to have that level of self-awareness, it would not change the fact that they don't really care what we want. It would just give them the mental tools to be more effective manipulators of their humans. I for one don't find that an appealing idea.
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Humans likewise are opportunists... with intelligence they learn to cooperate for mutual gain.
A cat smart enough to know why it is kept around is one that can be bargained with... deliver this many rats and you get this amount of whatever it is you want.
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The interesting thing to me about the link is the mice were tested with the human gene against the corresponding chimp gene in a mouse brain as a control.
We have at least one allele for brain development identified in three species. Don't you just know experiments with the human gene inserted in the monkey is the next logical step? Hail Caesar...
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Humans likewise are opportunists... with intelligence they learn to cooperate for mutual gain.
People will do that, but it isn't all about sociopathic cooperation with us, as this implies. We are innately social creatures, and naturally seek to form groups together, even when there is no (non-emotional) personal gain. We have a word for people who cooperate with others only when it gains them something: "sociopaths".
Dogs are that way too. Evolution crafted them to live and hunt in groups, and co-evolution with humans has further crafted them to watch and understand humans and want to please them.
Ca
How long would an animal (Score:2)
as smart as you are take orders/be penned up/allow itself to be slaughtered en masse for food/etc? A different but familiar Orwellian outcome ;)
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Remember where I said "lets make the cows, chickens, pigs, etc" smarter?
Me neither.
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Humans already have as big a skull at birth as is possible. Any larger and it simply wouldn't fit through the pelvis. If you want to try a larger-brained human, you'll have to get it out by caesarian.
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A large number of births happen by caesarian already and we quite near to have effective artificial wombs. So... it doesn't especially matter.
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Consider a horse that isn't stupid.
This kills the self-driving car. Seriously. A sapient horse could learn the city like a London cabbie, and at your command, take you where ever you want to go.
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It would also be very green... running on apples and cuddles.
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Dogs are genetically disposed to imprint on their owners. Imagine a dog that really does understand human language... complete with grammar. Lassie, sort my mail then bring me bills and magazines.
Consider a horse that isn't stupid. Able to know when it is needed, what it is to do, and when it is to leave. And possibly the damn things could be taught to take care of themselves a bit better so that the owners don't have to spend as much time fussing over them.
Imagine cats that are not only bred by instinct to depopulate the rat population in the area but that understand that is why you keep them there. Possibly useful as lookouts etc in ways that they're not today.
You mean, imagine having slaves?
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More peta people...
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I knew some PETA fool would show up to whine about my comment.
As to slavery, you could make the same claim now with or without enhanced intelligence. And of course, that is what the PETA twits do... no one cares.
Beyond that, I suggested pushing human intelligence further as well. Which if effective could make normal humans no more intelligent relative to the enhanced then animals are to normal humans.
At which point going by your definition... would it be reasonable for an enhanced human to enslave regular h
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And?
Flowers for Algernon (Score:5, Interesting)
This reminds me of the novel [wikipedia.org] by Daniel Keyes, who BTW died last year. [slashdot.org]
shouldnt be legal (Score:2)
Ok, this stuff is just too creepy and fucked up. Frankenstienish. Definitely worthy of the whatcouldpossiblygowrong tag. Its just too dangerous for this kind of meddling to be legal.
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Does mouse DNA ... (Score:2)
enlarge human ears ? If so, Disney would sue!
Gatacca - coming to a country near you! (Score:2)
Far from a fear of genetic tampering, bigger boobs and blonde hair will quickly devolve into less important things like health, lifespan, and more intelligence. But don't worry my non-augmented friends, while you won't be able to vote, hold a job, or hold any preferred life form rights, our kind masters still allow us to serve them. Isn't that enough?
Round Hole, Square Peg.. (Score:2)
I'm not anywhere near knowledgable about medicine, but if the brain is larger, does the cranial cavity grow increase to the same level?
I wonder if there a round hole, square peg kind (big brain, small cranial cavity) of issue coming. The brains might be smarter, but they may suffer from decreased mental abilities from intracranial pressure.
Lovely (Score:2)
Just another harebrained scheme.
For the love of god/shiva/allah... (Score:2)
Are you pondering (Score:2)
... what I'm pondering?
Do birds next! (Score:2)
They already have some very impressive abilities for their small brain size, and many are already natural mimics for sound. Some crow species even have tool use - and one step beyond, tool creation. Just a little bit of a boost and you might get a parrot that can understand what it's saying. The potential is there - Alex showed that, but Alex was a fluke, no other has come close.
Smarter Mice (Score:2)
The mice will see you now (Score:3)
That is all.
So you smart, huh? (Score:2)
I thought you head would be bigga. [youtube.com]
look out ... (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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"Yeessss!" - the brain.
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His name is the Brain, not the brain.
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NARF!
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Nickel metal Hydlide (Score:5, Funny)
Battery technology has improved. First it was The Secret of NiMH, then The Li-ion King, and then The Matrix.
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Isn't it NiMH?
The Rats of Nickle Metal Hydride!
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I'm afraid that there isn't anything funny about NIMH...
AFAIK, the "inspiration" for the secrets of NIMH was sadly this experiment [nih.gov]...
Not much funny about that...
Although it does illustrate that Robert Frost's lamenting of the mending wall [wikipedia.org] is bit idealistic, and perhaps there is a good reason to remember that sometimes, good fences do make good neighbors...
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Are you pondering... (Score:2)
...what I'm pondering?
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Probably, but wouldn't a bathtub filled with jello be all squishy wishy wooo? NARF!
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i just came here to make sure this fact was given proper observance. thank you.
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Pinky*
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You insensitive clod!
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"thousands of years of evolution" doesn't get you much. Different hair color maybe. Natural evolution takes millions of years.
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List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons [wikipedia.org]
Brain size [wikipedia.org]
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Who the hell modded you
Name is enough or you need phone and address as well?
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How do you know that isn't what they did in this case?