Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Science Idle Technology

Ancient Planes and Other Claims Spark Controversy at Indian Science Congress 381

An anonymous reader writes A paper presented at the 102nd Indian Science Congress on Sunday claims that Indians had mastered aviation thousands of years before the Wright brothers. India's science and technology minister Mr. Harsh Vardhan who was present at the conference claimed that ancient Indian mathematicians discovered the Pythagorean theorem but that the Greeks got the credit. These startling claims come just a few days after prime minister Narendra Modi had called Lord Ganesha who is part elephant and part human, a product of ancient India's knowledge of plastic surgery.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Ancient Planes and Other Claims Spark Controversy at Indian Science Congress

Comments Filter:
  • ...and... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Charliemopps ( 1157495 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:08AM (#48735623)

    ...and the best part is they have Nukes!

    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:15AM (#48735655)

      That's so ghee

    • Re:...and... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Rei ( 128717 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:28AM (#48735721) Homepage

      It's an interesting phenomenon and you see the same thing in Russian science. There are an awful lot of brilliant scientists in both India and Russia doing amazing things. But it's like there's no filter. The unadulterated garbage rises just as much to the top as the actual great scientific work. I can't help but wonder if it's related to the same sort of corruption and patronage systems that you see a lot in the business and political world as well.

      It's also interesting that even on things that they innovate on (and there have been a lot), you don't see much commercialization actually within their respective countries. You see a lot more when they leave and move to Europe or the US or whatnot.

      • Re:...and... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:40AM (#48735775)

        It's an interesting phenomenon and you see the same thing in Russian science. There are an awful lot of brilliant scientists in both India and Russia doing amazing things. But it's like there's no filter. The unadulterated garbage rises just as much to the top as the actual great scientific work.

        It's a good thing this sort of quackery is limited to India and Russia. I'd be pretty embarrassed if we had some of our people claiming that the world was only a few thousand years old, that climate change doesn't exist, and that we didn't evolve over time but were all designed by a supernatural entity.

        • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @09:16AM (#48735963)
          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Re:...and... (Score:5, Insightful)

            by arkenian ( 1560563 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @09:49AM (#48736179)

            It's a good thing this sort of quackery is limited to India and Russia. I'd be pretty embarrassed if we had some of our people claiming that the world was only a few thousand years old, that climate change doesn't exist, and that we didn't evolve over time but were all designed by a supernatural entity.

            These two situations are not comparable. Yes, the United States has Creationists and such, but they tend to move in their own circles, and even in academia they are found at private Christian universities. In India and Russia however, one tends to see a lot of quackery coming from state-run universities. This is probably facilitated by stronger job security (against much lower salaries) for certain faculty, combined with lower barriers to publication.

            To some extent. But the claims on ancient indian technology are religious-based as well, in most respects. And what an indian government official says is not necessarily a shared opinion of the actual academics. As a side note, my recollection is that the pythagorean theorem being first discovered in India actually has some credibility, the rest of the examples are utter garbage of course.

            • Re:...and... (Score:5, Insightful)

              by TWX ( 665546 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @10:10AM (#48736359)
              It also seems like our American politicians that land on the side of the quackery don't actually believe it most of the time, they're using a population that's too stupid to see that their patron only wants their votes. The politician almost always stops short of fully committing to the quackery cause.

              These reports make it clear that many politicians in other countries either are much less cautious, or actually do support these crazy notions.

              Granted, we could just be seeing the crazy part, as crap rises to the top and makes for good press, regardless of how fringe it is.
            • Re:...and... (Score:5, Interesting)

              by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @11:45AM (#48737321) Journal

              There is a strong vein of Hindu nationalism which intrudes on a number of fields. One particular area of research where this sort of Hindu jingoism pops in is in Indo-European linguistics. While the overwhelming majority of researchers into Proto-Indo-European believe the PIE urheimat is either in Eastern Europe or possibly Anatolia, there are a number of Indian linguists who insist, despite every evidence that the Indo-Iranian languages arrived relatively late in the subcontinent, that Proto-Indo-European's origins are in or near India.

        • Re:...and... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by nucrash ( 549705 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @09:29AM (#48736043)

          Or claiming that water fluoridation causes sterilization or vaccination causes autism or GMOs are killing us.

          Liberal and Conservative sides can both be equally anti-science.

          • Look at how liberals hate nukes without a thought of how to deal with all of the waste.
            Likewise, they back the science on AGW (good), but then come up with solutions in which they tell the world's largest polluter to go ahead and double in size, while telling the ENTIRE WEST, which emits less than China does, to cut their emissions.

            And none of that speaks about how anti-science the GOP has become.
          • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Funny, but if I recall the original water fluoridation conspiracies came from John Bircher types who said it was a plot by Communists to mind-control Americans. And I think you'll find many anti-vaxers & anti GMO people these days are Conservative homeschool sorts.

            • by jedidiah ( 1196 )

              "Conservative types" tend not to care terribly about issues like food quality or about the political consequences of allowing the corn equivalent of Microsoft. In either case, they will be all for allowing "job creators" to completely run amok.

          • by TWX ( 665546 )

            Or claiming that water fluoridation causes sterilization or vaccination causes autism or GMOs are killing us.

            Keep your fluoridated water away from my precious bodily fluids...

          • Fortunately, the right-wing component of the antiscience movement has no history of actually stopping progress. No creationist has ever filed a lawsuit halting work on vital energy infrastructure, for example. The anti-fluoridationist right had a moment in the early Fifties, but to get votes against fluoridation to stick in modern times, the anti-fuoridationists had to switch sides and ally with the left, as recently happened in Oregon.

      • In the US, we just let politicians [motherjones.com] do that for us.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        So I have (ok had) a Russian friend. He's still a coworker, but I don't talk to him anymore.

        He was talking to me, and since my background is a bit outside of the normal background for a programmer (did Biological research) he eventually guided me to a (didn't know it at the time) hoax finding in South America. I worked on the background information until I found out that not only was it a hoax, but in light of prosecution the perpetrator decided to recant and show how he manufactured the fake items.

        His st

        • Re:...and... (Score:5, Informative)

          by the gnat ( 153162 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @01:56PM (#48738821)

          My favorite part about working with a Russian scientist: In the original Star Trek series, Chekhov often makes comments claiming specific discoveries or cultural artifacts as Russian - "discovered by famous Russian astronomer" or "old Russian fairy tale: if shoe fits, wear it". It's sort of a running joke, I assume related to the fact that 20th century Russian science tended to be totally cut off from the rest of the world. The really funny thing: THEY ACTUALLY DO THIS. And not just about historical discoveries either. I left a perfectly good job in large part because of this kind of crap.

    • ...and the best part is they have Nukes!

      "Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!" - Ghandi

    • I mean other countries had president which believed in an apocalyptic religion (revelation) or that atheist should not given the right to vote. Being from outside, the apocalyptic believer make me far more fear than the plane-to-other-planet Veda believer.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      If India hadn't developed nukes, Pakistan and China would have done major incursions into Indian territory by now. In fact the USA has indirectly helped Pakistan finance its nuke program over the years. if India had not developed nukes, Pakistan and China would have been in a position to completely invade and take over India any time they pleased. This would NOT have been a good thing for India, or the world, especially USA, because unlike India, the nations of Pakistan and China are not democracies. One i

      • Actually, Paki nukes came only after Indian nukes. But, I agree that without them, India would be in trouble from both China and possibly, Pakistan.

        However, what started India down the path of building a nuke was NOT China or Pakistan. It was Nixon, who threatened India with nukes if they do not stop interfering with East Pakistan. He flat out told them that we have a nuke on the enterprize right off their shore and would use it unless they stopped. That man was such an ass.
    • by Prof.Phreak ( 584152 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @09:53AM (#48736215) Homepage

      ...and the best part is they have Nukes!

      Which according to The History Channel were also invented in India thousands of years ago!

      • by rossdee ( 243626 )

        "...and the best part is they have Nukes!

          Which according to The History Channel were also invented in India thousands of years ago!"

        No, it was the aliens that invented them, and the flying machines and stuff, and the indians thought they were gods...

        "Ancient Aliens" new episodes on the H2 channel, with expert opinion from Eric Von Daniken
         

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Since the History channel was invented in India 3000 BCE, they are a bias source.

    • Can you imagine a country where the leaders preach that women have natural defenses against rape, having nukes? You wouldn't credit such a country with having electricity.

      It is not just cream that rices to the top.

    • here is an english translation of the papers: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.... [bibliotecapleyades.net]

      random moderators: BEFORE considering hitting "-1" please read the full text below.

      if you look up the papers they apparently had mercury-based plasma ion drives (which i hear NASA and the JPL have been researching for some time) as well as highly destructuve beam weapons (which i hope *nobody* in modern times has been researching). the papers are thousands of years old, and have been well-known for a considerable amount of time,

      • by Jason Levine ( 196982 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @12:15PM (#48737639) Homepage

        To some degree, I can accept "lost technology." A claim that the Indians had some metallurgical technique that was lost and rediscovered by Europeans? I can buy that. I'd still require proof, but I can accept that this might happen. Primitive glider-type airplanes developed by Indians thousands of years ago? This is getting more far fetched and requires more proof, but perhaps someone there made one glider that worked for one flight. Advanced planes with the capability for space-flight to other planets? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If you want to prove this, you'll need a lot more than "it's written down in some text somewhere." (If written text counts as proof then a thousand years from now there will be proof that Americans had galaxy-wide space-flight capability in the 20th Century thanks to some sci-fi stories.)

        Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Indians a thousand years ago having modern or even futuristic technology that was lost without a trace save for writing in one book (which might be open to interpretation) is *NOT* extraordinary proof.

  • Given the Indians grasp of all things internet,

    it is not at all surprising that innovations by the many have stolen from them been.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Master Yoda? Is that you?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:11AM (#48735637)
    Of making dense posts in the Internet and in technical forums. I have left too many technical forums because there is no patience for the multitude of posts "I don't know how to this simple task, poor of me, do my job for me"
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:59AM (#48735873)

      I made a heat transfer calculation webapp some years back for a undergrad research project. After the first several emails from Chinese and Indian grad students asking for my source code because it could help them with their own projects I stopped even bothering to read questions about the program.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Elephant in the room...

  • hysterical (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Cardoor ( 3488091 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:18AM (#48735675)
    lord ganesha proof of plastic surgery?? rarely do i found abject ignorance so funny. but this is gold!!
    • Re:hysterical (Score:5, Interesting)

      by NotDrWho ( 3543773 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:39AM (#48735771)

      I'm just wondering if anyone has actually verified that "Mr. Harsh Vardhan" isn't actually Sacha Baron Cohen in disguise.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      lord ganesha proof of plastic surgery?? rarely do i found abject ignorance so funny. but this is gold!!

      It is not that crazy if you actually think about it for long...
      In India, people with severe facial deformities are often revered as profits or some such:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

      Now, I don't know about intentionally making yourself look like an Elephant with plastic surgery... but there are certainly many cases of people ending up with a natural resemblance to having the head of an elephant. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that at some time in the very distant past that a cult popped up ar

      • representations of deities as men with animal parts are deliberate attempts to communicate messages in a language/medium which a normal person can receive - albeit perhaps at a level initially somewhat unconscious. a modest exploration of of myth and symbology should make this clear.
  • Greeks (Score:5, Funny)

    by Extremus ( 1043274 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:21AM (#48735689)

    The greeks got the credit, but lost them some years ago due to economic difficulties. The common wisdom now is that the Pythagorean theorem have been discovered by an anonymous hedge fund.

    • Re:Greeks (Score:5, Funny)

      by NotDrWho ( 3543773 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:48AM (#48735811)

      I understand that Northrop Grumman recently acquired the patents to the Pythagorean theorem after a ruling from a federal judge in the eastern district of Texas--after promising said judge a chance to fly a B-2 bomber all by his very self and a 2-scoop ice cream cone afterwards if he was a good boy.

  • And the ancient planes also had the ability to fly between planets too. Don't think that these claims will stand up to review.

    Ancient peoples were just as smart as us, but you need time to build the necessary tech. base in order to make advanced equipment so that you can discover advanced scientific theories and engineering disciplines.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:26AM (#48735715)

    Indian politics has a long history of using pseudo science to sway the gullible. Many years ago, we had a veteran politician getting farmers to agitate against dams claiming that the dams removed the electricity from the water, so when it reached the fields it did not have any electricity left. The lack of electricity was affecting the quality of the crops.
    The creationist museum here in the US where I currently stay is the US version of the same thing. The use of "common sense" and "the written word of God" to counter empirical, evidence driven hard science.
    The problem as I see it is that in the name of defending religion, we are required to unquestioningly suspend all argument and reason when reading religious texts. It is a very short step to suspend all argument and reason when listening to the people who hold themselves as defenders of these texts.

    • I disagree... I can't speak for India, but here in the US people really do believe this stuff. Not only that, but many of the politicians we have in office are true believers and again truly believe this stuff. It's not always just some cynical attempt to manipulate people (though in some cases it is.)

      This is why there should be a firm separation of Church and state. Religion is by defiance something that rejects evidence and relies solely on faith. As such, anyone can come along, reject all reasonable argu

    • And that is why we need to defend our right to question, challenge and where necessary mock and ridicule religion. Let people believe and preach what they want, but don't ask us to respect or defend it, tolerance is sufficient. Yet more and more people feel they need to, or are forced to tiptoe around issues sensitive to religion. Especially here in Europe where there's a much weaker tradition of free speech and an unholy alliance between muslims noisily demanding respect and christians silently nodding t
  • by cardpuncher ( 713057 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:32AM (#48735743)

    ... but I guess a paper entitled "Indians Invented Nothing" might not be selected for presentation.

  • by DavidHumus ( 725117 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:33AM (#48735747)

    ...the Indian "Science" Conference ?

  • ...they're going to dig for copper cabling that's thousands of years old, to prove they had a phone network before everyone else. When they don't find any, they'll conclude the only reason for that can be that they moved to mobile phones even back then!

  • so, after kim jong il died his science advisor was hired by the indians
    so, what's next ? unicorns or yeti's ?

  • Well to be fair, I could buy the Pythagorean Theorem thing, that could have been discovered and forgotten, only to be dug up later. But the aviation claim is ridiculous, especially when one reads the rest of the claim where the vehicles could visit other planets.
  • The more reality diminishes the realm of nonsense, the more subscribers to nonsense will fight back with increasingly extraordinary claims, demanding they be taken at face value.

  • Nearly every comment on this article deviates from 'really bad peer reviews' into racist bigotry. Shame on you lot.

  • by Vintermann ( 400722 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @09:36AM (#48736083) Homepage

    The British royal family. They all live in the same family house together - Indian. All work in the family business - Indian. All have arranged marriages - Indian. They all have sons; daughters no good - Indian. Children live with their parents until they are married - Indian!

    Except Prince Charles. He's African.

  • Especially that new exhaust system.

  • this reminds me of a joke...
    scientists around the world were trying to figure out which was the most advanced in the past
    so, the french dig a deep hole and found some copper string, and claimed that they had invented the telephone 1000 years ago
    the english dug an even deeper hole and found some glass shards, and claimed that they had invented fiberglass wires 2000 years ago
    the portuguese dug an absurdly deep hole, and found NOTHING

    so they claimed that they invented wireless cellphone 6000 years ago

  • by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Monday January 05, 2015 @10:42AM (#48736663)

    ...some bad India jokes:

      I'm Gonna Jump

      In Mumbai, a man is going to jump off the building.
    Up rushes good Hindu cop to talk him down.
    Cop yells up to the man "Don't jump! Think of your father" Man replies "Haven't got a father; I'm going to jump."
    The cop goes through a list of relatives, mother, brothers, sister, etc. Each time man says "haven't got one; going to jump."
    Desperate the cop yells up "Don't jump! Think of Lord Krishna"
    Man replies "Who is that?"
    Cop yells "Jump, Muslim! You're blocking traffic!"

      Two Accountants

    One day two accountants, who were best friends, were walking together down the street.
    One was a Hindu and constantly berated the other for eating meat!
    After stopping for a hot dog, the Hindu erupted "Why do you eat meat?, Do you even know what's in that hot dog? You know, you are what you eat!"
    The American replied "I am what I eat, an uncontrollable vicious animal (beating his chest)"
    As they stepped off the curb a speeding car came around the corner and ran the Hindu over.
    The American called 911 and helped his injured friend as best he was able.
    The injured Hindu was taken to emergency at the hospital and rushed into surgery. After a long and agonizing wait, the doctor finally appeared.
    He told the uninjured American, "I have good news, and I have bad news. The good news is that your friend is going to pull through."
    "The bad news is that he's going to be a vegetable for the rest of his life."

      Currency Exchange
    A hindu man walked into the currency exchange in New York City with 5000 rupees and walked out with $100.
    The following week, he walked in with another 5000 rupees, and was handed $84.
    He asked the teller why he got less money that week than the previous week. The teller said, "Fluctuations."
    The hindu man stormed out, and just before slamming the door, turned around and shouted, "Fluc you Amelicans, too!"

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 05, 2015 @11:20AM (#48737049)

    Indeed, a lot of weird things exist in India.

    - Regions with really high radioactive background but with no compelling natural explanation. Ruins of ancient castles where the stone walls have thoroughly melted as if glass, at temperatures most likely higher than termite or oxy-acetylene

    - Rather detailed descriptions of tactical nuclear warfare in the vedas, including fallout and decontamination activity.

    - Descriptions of giant arrow throwers, which protect aginst vimanas or flying war chariots, but are so complex no less than 4 people in close cooperation can operate them.
    (Those passages bear eerie similarity to the SA-2 missiles that downed B-52s over Hanoi: they were so complex at least 4-5 people were needed to guide them. This was NOT because of the low level of automation-computerization available to the soviets, as it has been proven over and over that higher automated systems, e.g. BUK, TOR can be jammed deterministically by advanced enough pods. In contrast, man in the loop systems, like the SA-3 remain efficient after over 40 years in service and earthed an F-16, F-117 in 1999 and a jewish AGM-142 flying bomb a few weeks ago.)

    - There is a long-running rumor among the jews (the gem trading race) that those fabulous giant diamonds found nowhere else but India are artificial, rather than of natural origin. Many millenia ago, there was some advanced civilization in the Indus valley, who could make fist sized diamonds. We are decades, if not centuries from that level of sophistication.

    - Hinduism is the only major religion that never felt the need to exterminate the faith of her neighbours or the neighbours themselves. India is spiritually more advanced, maybe because they have already have their many major wars many millenia ago, thus having learnt what we learned only in WWI and WW2. (May I mention stories about the legendary King Ashoka and the secret anti-war society of the Nine Unknown Men, he founded?)

    - If you watch the recent prequel of Alien movie, the extraterrestrial "engineer" is seen reading ancient sanskrit there (tale of the horse and lamb or something like that). I think there is a deep-running understanding in the graeco-roman heritage that white people culture and the large majority of european languages can from northern India, the so-called aryans.

    • It's a very long distance from fanciful imagery in ancient texts (Ezekiel's wheel is a UFO, obviously, for example) to the historical existence of a nuclear war.

      Explanations for natural and/or artifical oddities have to be seriously sought before giving credence to theories developed by those looking to use seeming correlations to bolster possible fantasies. How many times has Nostradamus been proved "correct"? It is a human trait to look for correlations; if the first three times your tribe passed a rock

  • by Ukab the Great ( 87152 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @12:04PM (#48737503)

    Until you have read him in the original Hindi.

  • by dcollins ( 135727 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:27PM (#48740285) Homepage

    The thing about the Pythagorean Theorem is completely true and well-documented (by maybe one or two hundred years). Pretty sure it's in a sidebar to the college algebra text I teach out of.

    Wikipedia: "In India, the Baudhayana Sulba Sutra, the dates of which are given variously as between the 8th century BC and the 2nd century BC, contains a list of Pythagorean triples discovered algebraically, a statement of the Pythagorean theorem, and a geometrical proof of the Pythagorean theorem for an isosceles right triangle. The Apastamba Sulba Sutra (ca. 600 BC) contains a numerical proof of the general Pythagorean theorem, using an area computation. Van der Waerden believed that "it was certainly based on earlier traditions". Boyer (1991) thinks the elements found in the ulba-stram may be of Mesopotamian derivation.[67]... Pythagoras, whose dates are commonly given as 569–475 BC, used algebraic methods to construct Pythagorean triples..."

    [67] Carl Benjamin Boyer (1968). "China and India". A history of mathematics. Wiley. p. 229.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem#History [wikipedia.org]

    There's all kinds of examples, maybe more often the case than not, that mathematical principles get named after someone other than the original discoverer. It doesn't even require "forgotten knowledge" or anything like that, just some kind of power relationship at play. In fact, Stigler's Law of Eponomy (named after Stephen Stigler, Distinguished Service Professor at the Department of Statistics of the University of Chicago) states, "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." See also: Matthew Effect and Boyer's Law.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy [wikipedia.org]

    Here's professor Richard Lipton writing on that particular subject:

    http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/why-is-everything-named-after-gauss/ [wordpress.com] ... but obviously the other stuff mentioned at the conference is total looney-tunes.

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday January 05, 2015 @06:55PM (#48741481)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

Sigmund Freud is alleged to have said that in the last analysis the entire field of psychology may reduce to biological electrochemistry.

Working...