Majority of Young American Adults Think Astrology Is a Science 625
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Americans have always had a strange fascination with astrology. First Lady Nancy Reagan famously employed the services of an astrologer after the assassination attempt on her husband. Now UPI reports that according to a new survey by the National Science Foundation, nearly half of all Americans say astrology is either 'very' or 'sort of' scientific. Younger respondents, in particular, were the least likely to regard astrology as unscientific, with 58% of 18 to 24 years olds saying that astrology is scientific (PDF). What's most alarming is that American attitudes about science are moving in the wrong direction. Skepticism of astrology hit an all-time high in 2004, when 66 percent of Americans said astrology was total nonsense. But each year, fewer and fewer respondents have dismissed the connections between star alignment and personality as bunk. Among respondents in the 25 — 44 age group 49% of respondents in the 2012 survey said astrology is either 'very scientific' or 'sort of scientific,' up from 36% in 2010. So what's behind this data? The lead author of the report chapter in question, public opinion specialist John Besley of Michigan State University, cautions that we should probably wait for further data 'to see if it's a real change' before speculating. But, he admits, the apparent increase in astrology belief 'popped out to me when I saw it.'"
And in other news... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Majority of young Americans think health care is something only old people need.
Majority of young Americans would like Beta, if th (Score:3, Funny)
Majority of young Americans would like Beta, if they ever came here in the first place.
Re:Majority of young Americans would like Beta, if (Score:4, Funny)
Majority of young Americans would like Beta, if they ever came here in the first place.
The majority of young Americans don't even know what VHS is these days, let alone Beta. ;-)
Re:Majority of young Americans dont know clockwise (Score:5, Funny)
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That's only because they think Beta is the opposite of Wers.
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
The majority of (all) Americans think health care is the same thing as health insurance.
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Haha, very true. I'm a recent migrant to the US, having previously lived in a country with a universal single-payer system. One of my first challenges when I started work here was understanding my insurance options ... open enrollment, deductibles, co-pays, in-network vs. out of network etc. All this new terminology was really quite overwhelming given that I'd never had to ~think~ about healthcare AT ALL before in my life. I was used to turning up to any old doctor/clinic I could find, getting treated, swiping my healthcare card on the way out and ... leaving. Money barely came into it. But here - so many choices, so many restrictions. It's a minefield.
A lot of people I talk to here really can't wrap their mind around healthcare in a world where it isn't tied up intimately with the insurance industry. They also can't seem to understand that universal healthcare does not mean the government is somehow controlling your treatment. In my old country, doctors/clinics/some hospitals were regular, private businesses, just like in the US. If I didn't like one, I could go to another. The only difference is the government pays most or all of the bill at the end. Government-PAID healthcare does not always mean government-RUN healthcare...
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Re:And in other news... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
A majority of young adults are dumb as a box of rocks. and it's not their fault. It's that they had horrible parents that did not teach them anything and went to public school.
Education in the United states is a complete and utter joke. As an adult that went through that system and had to have my father scream at teachers and administrators to do their frigging job, and myself had to do the same thing until I simply pulled my child from the worthless public school system and sent her to private school at great personal expense, I know how worthless it is. They teach to the common moron and we cant leave the dumb kids behind. Oh and we cant dare insult someone , little timmy loves the spegetti monster as his lord and savoir, we cant upset his family teaching that the world was not created in 3 days and is only 400 years old...
Americans are poorly educated, and it has became so bad that todays young adults are less educated than the ones just one generation before because of being PC and how education is the bottom of the barrel budget wise.
Re:And in other news... (Score:4, Interesting)
I went to a parent teacher conference when my son was in junior high and was excited to get to talk to his science teacher. I loved my junior high and high school science classes because we did experiments and it was fun.
I was very disappointed to find out that my son would not have that experience, because their insurance wouldn't cover it.
We have done more than a few of the experiments I could remember from school in the garage.
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http://www.amazon.com/Illustra... [amazon.com]
http://www.amazon.com/Illustra... [amazon.com]
Unfortunately, they don't seem to have done one for Physics.
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funny comparative point, norway doesn't allow children activities where everyone doesn't win until you turn 11. And it's not that they are a country of losers either, they are the winningest country in the winter olympics. there is no particular reason you become weak or a loser because you don't have rankings for 8 year olds who all actually suck at their sport of choice.
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I bet Norwegian children ignore their teachers and keep score, just like American kids when faced with the same instructions.
If they don't I fear for the future of Norway. Bunch of stinking law abiders.
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
What you have identified as "political correctness riding a democratic ass" is a lot older than you assume, but it is, in fact democratic... old school. It's old name, back in the times of the Greeks and the Romans, was "decorum". It means "fit" in latin, having the meaning of "suitable". It's part of good rhetoric, as a device that brings an audience closer to you by not being rude or offensive. To flip that around the other way, you can include (or show that you welcome) a person or group of people in your reasoning or community by choosing your words carefully.
I think you may be conflating decorum with inappropriate recognition for achievement, but the two are separate things. The former is meant to show or develop alignment with shared goals or interests, and the other is meant (with good intent, perhaps, though with questionable results) to boost self-esteem.
I choose to observe rules of decorum (the people around you actually decide what they are) because I want to work more effectively with people around me and to perhaps have an easier time convincing those people to do things that I see as beneficial. By not declaring that the people around me are my hated opposition or labeling them in ways that might confine their ways of thinking to those that oppose my views, I keep them open to my persuasion.
Since I share your goal of not perpetuating inappropriate recognition of achievement, I'm happy to let you know that I was utterly unconvinced by your point of view and there is little chance that you will ever persuade me. I encourage you to keep floundering away in your rhetoric until everyone around us is as convinced as I am.
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Yes, but thankfully there wasn't much left to ruin after Dungeons and Dragons finished what Rock'n Roll had left.
Honestly, you'd think we wouldn't be here anymore, after all the times society has been ruined [tvtropes.org] since antiquity.
If the world isn't fair, then why do you complain when winning or losing don't make a difference for the
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What's the matter, kid, did your grandpa molest you or something?
Entitlement? I'm certainly entitled to what I pay for. As to selfish, I see that more in the kids. We did NOT grow up in unprecedented prosperity you ignorant twat, the fifties when we were kids and seventies when we were young adults were both recession periods, and the seventies were inflationary DURING a recession.
Selfish? Sorry, kid, that's YOUR cocaine-addled generation, not mine. Also, methinks you're confusing social classes with ages.
O
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Unions didn't kill themselves by asking for too much money, corporations killed the unions by buying "right to work" legislation in many states, then moving there. And there's no way any American can compete with someone who can get by on two dollars a day, so the "American" companies shipped jobs where pay was nothing and regulations were nonexistent (leading to poisoned baby formula, China's horrendous pollution, etc). Union labor? Minimum wage can't compete with China when it comes to cheap labor.
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That rather depends on the school's admittance policies, doesn't it?
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Just remember 50% (Or damn close) of the population has below average intelligence.
So you take half of the population with below average intelligence, then you add in a few percentage of people who just don't know better. Then you have the majority who say something stupid.
Also it depends on how you word things.
The question of how scientific is astrology is, Very, Somewhat, very Little, not at all. Could lead people who actually do not believe in astrology to answer the question to imply that they do.
How S
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the problem is that a lot of young Americans don't know the difference between astronomy and astrology?
Looking at your post it seems they're not alone.
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I never stated that astronomy and astrology were the same... However Astrology was an earlier "study" of the stars, that allowed the back bone for real science of astronomy. As most of us look into space and we see the stars, we go well isn't that nice, however really sit back and make much sense out of it. Astrology was the first attempt to really make sense out of it. Its conclusions were wrong, but at least it fond a pattern in the seemingly random sky.
This allowed the backbone for Astronomy to really
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or they think "axe" is an awesome body spray.
Either way, they are wrong
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No, they think "axe" is something you do with a question.
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Interesting)
Blowing off a mod point to post this. But I want to see any responses, so I don't want to AC this.
Bringing this back on topic, an increasing number of young people use the word "science" in its older sense, back when it meant an internally self-consistent body of knowledge. Back before the experimental method was described. In the original sense of the word, astrology is a science, just as the medicine of ancient Greece was a science, or artists' study of color theory, perspective, and proportion is a science.
The real question is why so many youngsters today are using the word "science" in this larger sense? I think the answer has to do with their early exposure to fractals, to strange attractors and butterfly effects, and to the mixing of eurocentric world views with the world views of India and east Asia.
It might be that the apparent increase in belief in astrology has more to do with a shift in how the word "science" is now used among young people. Among those under 30 yo, talking about the science of acupuncture, or the science of yoga or of meditation is not uncommon. In this sense, the science of astrology fits right in.
What would be interesting is if the poll had also asked the question, "Does astrology have less, as much, or more impact on your daily life as chemistry and physics?" I would guess the answer to that would show no significant change over the years.
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Of course in other English-speaking countries, the punctuation mark you're thinking of is called a "full stop".
Re:And in other news... (Score:4, Informative)
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He's right because the ballot paper doesn't look like this:
I do NOT want (tick one)
Ron Richguy (Rep). .[__] .[__]
Len Lawyer (Dem) .
Nate Nutcase (Eco). [__]
Rob R Baron (Lib) . [__]
to be President, over my dead body./TT
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In fairness, I didn't want to vote for Bush, but Kerry wasn't a serious candidate. I would have taken just about anyone over Bush, but Kerry wasn't it.
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Note that after Bush's second term I gave up completely and vote third party now.
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The radio announcer said last night that the Palestinians and the Israelis might come to a peace deal real soon now, because it appears to be the only way they can get Kerry to shut up.
More likely (Score:5, Interesting)
The decrease in astrology's visibility (people no longer read magazines, and "horoscope blogs" don't seem to have become a thing) may just have led to most young people not having a clue and assuming astrology = astronomy.
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I'll second that. They are most likely mixing up the two words.
Re:More likely (Score:5, Informative)
When I was growing up in the 1970s, it was common for people at parties to ask "What's your sign?" and "Age of Aquairus" was playing on the radio. Today, I almost never hear about astrology. I find it hard to believe that is anywhere near as popular as it used to be. Hold on, let me go get some real world empirical data ... okay, I just asked my 15 year old daughter how many of her friends believe in astrology. Her response: "What's astrology?"
Re:More likely (Score:4, Funny)
Hold on, let me go get some real world empirical data ... okay, I just asked my 15 year old daughter how many of her friends believe in astrology. Her response: "What's astrology?"
I see the problem with your data. The poll was for 18-25 year olds. Your daughter still has three more years of stupid to absorb from school before she can have an opinion.
Re:More likely (Score:5, Insightful)
I simply don't trust surveys that don't publish the exact questions they used.
The wording, and how the questions are presented, are extremely important to the results. Most surveys are woefully unreliable anyway. But when you throw in the fact that you don't even know the actual questions asked, you might as well throw it away.
I don't give a damn if it was the National Science Foundation that conducted the survey, or the National Creationism Organization. List your questions when reporting your results, or don't bother me at all.
Re: More likely (Score:5, Interesting)
This is why Neil deGrasse Tyson prefers the term astro physics.
Re: More likely (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you have a reference for that explanation?
I have a hard time believing that deGrasse Tyson doesn't recognize astronomy and astrophysics as distinct disciplines. I certainly would believe that he prefers astrophysics to be called astrophysics, but there's plenty of astronomy outside of that. (Notably, amateur astronomy is not at all astrophysics.)
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Entirely possible. I used to mark assignments for a first-year University astronomy class, and about 6-7% of the students were upset that astrology wasn't included.
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Everyone seems to pick and choose when they are pro-science depending on how pleasant the topic is to the ear.
Re:More likely (Score:5, Insightful)
most young people not having a clue and assuming astrology = astronomy.
I find this only slightly less depressing.
Re:More likely (Score:4, Insightful)
Unlikely. Most probably people are more and more depressed over the random nature the world and all the crap that can happen to them. Since astrology provides a nice safe structure to explain shit, it must be very comforting to believe in something...anything! Probably explains why people are still religious.
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It's comforting because it means you're important. If there is a god who cares enough (either way) to send you to hell if you're bad and reward you if you're good, then you're not someone insignificant...you're a person worthy of god's attention. Otherwise god would just say "yeah, whatever...hell, heaven...I don't give a shit!" Feeds beautifully into our innate narcissism. If you go to hell, you're a badass gangsta worthy of the company of Lucifer himself.
It bring out the inner masochist in us. We gain ple
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Re:More likely (Score:5, Funny)
Totally true. I don't believe a thing about astrology, but then again I'm a pisces. We're naturally skeptical.
Cryonics vs. Cryogenics (Score:3)
Indeed, I think it's probably a good sign that kids today probably don't know what Astrology is and figure that it's "the one with the telescopes".
Similarly how many people here know the difference between Cryonics and Cryogenics? One is the study of ultra-low temperature, and the other is the movement surrounding freezing your body after you die with the goal of resurrecting you later when technology advances far enough. But do you know which is which without looking it up?
G.
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may just have led to most young people not having a clue and assuming astrology = astronomy
It is likely both studies were born at the same time. Maybe 10K years before the invention of agriculture and the domestication of maize in southern Mexico, 18K-20K years ago the first scientists looked up at the stars and drew what they saw on a cave wall in Lascaux [wikipedia.org], France... and at the same time the first astrologer connected the stars like dots, and drew animals [ps-19.org], which tell a story to them, which are no doubt related to far older oral traditions about which we'll likely never know anything.
I find it
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Considering that people believe that BMI is an actual method to measure body fat? I wouldn't doubt it.
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Re:More likely (Score:5, Funny)
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And they vote! (Score:4, Interesting)
Typo/misread? (Score:5, Interesting)
If I was skimming a survey that asked about scientific topics I'd probably read "astrology" as "astronomy" by accident. I'd possibly even chalk it up to a typo and deliberately substitute the two. I'm reading the paper right now to see if they accounted for this.
Astrology (Score:5, Funny)
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It looks like the report aggregates about 30 surveys and unfortunately doesn't reference individual data sources for the astrology discussion. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's done or worked on one of these surveys to see if they investigated this.
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Just don't wait too long if you're going to look into this. http://science.slashdot.org/st... [slashdot.org]
Re:Typo/misread? - Unlikely (Score:2)
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This would be a reason to worry less if it were a single data point. But this sort of explanation doesn't help explain the apparent increase over time unless you think people are getting less careful about reading questions or using context recognition.
Others on this thread have mentioned that people may simply not be as familiar with astrology as they were in the past. If the percentage of 18-24 year old adults who even know what astrology is is dropping steadily, then the number of people who mistake astrology for astronomy would probably be steadily going up at a similar rate. If a survey was already focusing on scientific concepts, I could see myself confusing the terms. Although in the context of "Is astrology a science" I would probably notice the d
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I think you are trying to rationalize the results away because you don't want to admit that officially now 40% of americans are blabbering imbeciles.
There's no other way to put it. And that's the brilliance of the paper. They don't ask if anyone "believes" in astrology or any such thing. They ask a question that has an objective true or false value.
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They ask a question that has an objective true or false value.
Well let's see. Astrology wouldn't exist without knowledge of planets and constellations and their location in the sky. That is objectively scientific, right?
Just not young people... (Score:2)
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IT IS SCIENCE (Score:4, Funny)
It's a science of extracting money from gullible people.
Racism is better! (Score:5, Interesting)
Prior data may suggest what is going on (Score:5, Interesting)
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The country has moved further left? Hardly. Instead, the center point has leaped further to the right. Many of this president's poilicies are no more liberal than Ronald Reagan yet the far right calls him a socialist. Check this out [voteview.com]. Look at the graph labeled "Party Means on Liberal-Conservative Dimension" and notice the jump on the conservative side. In particular, the Republican House of Representatives.
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However, astrology is more commonly believed on the left than on the right end of the political spectrum as measured by self-identified conservatives or liberals.
Irrational people are not monopolized by either political party. Irrational liberals are more likely to believe in astrology, and irrational conservatives are more likely to believe in the flying spaghetti monster (or whatever they call their favorite deity).
That's because.. (Score:4, Insightful)
The Right tends to be more of a certain Christian belief that has a deep seated fear of 'new agey', 'spiritistic', 'occult' etc practices, whereas the left has the Christians who don't care about that kind of stuff, and the secularists who are every bit as irrational.
I've noticed this trend too, having grown up amongst fundies then moving to the big city as I got older. You find pseudoscience everywhere.
My experience on the religious Right: Yoga, Meditation and Astrology open your mind to Satan. Pray to God, son.
My experience on the Left: Lengthy discussions of star signs, after laughing at those damn fool fundamentalists.
One day of working for a paper would convince them (Score:5, Interesting)
that astrology is intended as nothing more than entertainment --- the ``forecasts'' in a given newspaper each day are chosen from a set of a number of different forecasts, each of which is intended to fill up a different amount of space, e.g., if newspaper A has 1/2 a page to allot to them, they use the 1/2pg. filler version, if newspaper B only sold a 1-col ad for the astrology page, then they use the 5/6pg. filler version.
Mixup (Score:5, Informative)
or it might be a simple mixup between astrology and astronomy.
Re:Mixup (Score:5, Informative)
& Unemployed young people wonder ... (Score:2)
Why they can't get a job?
I don't believe in astrology (Score:5, Funny)
We Virgos are sceptical about such things.
Lame (Score:3)
But more believe in evolution (Score:2)
Majority of Young American Adults Are Morons... (Score:2)
Will South Carolina "teach this controversy"? (Score:2)
Will South Carolina now "teach the controversy" with astrology the way they say they say they want to do with creationism [slashdot.org]?
No, of course not, as what they are really trying to do is promote their religion in public schools, and astrology is not part of their religion.
Science versus noise (Score:2)
People are exposed to all kinds of "science" today: animal rights, anti-GMO, organic food, vegan diet, astrology, political science, economics...
What's science? Maybe all of the above, maybe none of the above.
Hold `on`... (Score:3)
dammit `~My `keyboard is on` the fritz so` forgive random` quotes, apostrophes `and tildes. I tried to delete them but `the `backspace key also inserts them! Yay!
First ``they `say this:
"half of all Americans say astrology, the study of celestial bodies' purported influence on human behavior and worldly events, is either "very scientific" or "sort of scientific."
`An`d `then` t`hey` say `this:
"By contrast, 92 percent of the Chinese public think horoscopes are a bunch of baloney."
So `they used` two `different `words which mean two `different things but used them in `a `comparison as if they were the `same` thing.`Great reporting!
My guess is astrology sounds very close to astronomy in both spelling and pronunciation` so it is leading to confusion. I` read throug`h t`he` report ``but `the `problem is `no` exact sample `question `was given and we don't know how the people were asked. It simply `states that "Since 1979, surveys have `asked `Americans whether they view astrology as being scientific." `I `guess it `must read something `like this: "Do `you think `astrology is` a `science?" with` a few check `boxes under it with "not `at all" "sort of" or "very `scientific".
I `bet if they replaced astrology with horoscopes then we would `see `a completely dif`ferent `dataset`.
Well I've recently become more convinced (Score:4, Funny)
Every day you hear about more things they are spotting in space, with bigger more powerful horoscopes they can see more exoplanets and stars etc. Considering how much our Curiosity alone has Discovered about the surface of Mars, it's not surprising Astrology is gaining a lot of credibility.
Astrology is a proto-science (Score:4, Interesting)
Interpret the results correctly (Score:3)
The results are there but the interpretation is flawed.
I'd be FAR more likely to believe US kids are stupid and confused 'astrology' with 'astronomy', than that they believe astrology is a science.
We were being given a college tour for one of our kids at a LEADING institution (retail price north of $50k/year) and the pretty young tour guide was showing us around, and identified one of the science buildings as "...and there's the building with various science classrooms including geology, biology, and astrology...", which prompted a sudden look up* by most of the male parents in the group, eye contact, and a shrug. I didn't notice a single mom or kid react.
*she was wearing yoga pants
Was it defined for them? (Score:3)
It's more science than religion (Score:4, Interesting)
While on par with most religious beliefs, at least astrology has some basis in science. Planetary positions and angular relationships between those planets isn't something that astrologers make up. The data is largely calculated from ephemeris (usually the Swiss ephemeris) and there is a lot of math involved.
If religion had as much science as astrology, everyone would believe in god.
The only thing not science about astrology is the interpreted meanings of the positions and angular relationships.
Astrology or astronomy? (Score:3)
Without RTFA, was there any attempt to remind survey participants that astrology is the one with animal symbols, and astronomy is the one with black holes? If not, this isn't measuring acceptance of astrology, so much as measuring name recognition.
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I'm tempted to agree. I'm not sure that they were explicitly confused but they may have been mostly ignorant, ie they rated astrology highly not because they confused it with astronomy, but because they associated with astronomy.
I actually saw a similar thing with a fairly well educated co-worker. We had a discussion one day and I discovered that he believed in homeopathy, as it turned out this was just because he didn't know what homeopathy was. He thought it was just another form of naturopathy (which is
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Personally, I'd much prefer a job as a veterinarian to one as a vegetarian.
I can imagine the signs held by those who want a job as a vegetarian though:
"Will work for no food!"
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A non-vegetarian veterinarian is a job where you can still eat when your customers don't pay you.
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you didn't read the article did you. you're wrong and jumping to conclusions. Furthermore most students in the USA are not taught creationism in school
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The invisible tentacles of the Flying Spaghetti Monster reach everywhere.
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That's a pretty good observation.
On one hand, you have a set of "rational" social values regarding going to college, being a moral, law abiding person, working hard, etc. all leading to good outcomes and yet none of it seems true anymore -- the plutocracy steals with impunity, working hard doesn't produce any rewards, college leads to lifelong indebtedness, etc.
On the other, you have an economy that never seems to get better for anyone but the rich, an environment that at best produces strange weather and o
Re:Let's face it ... (Score:4, Interesting)
What the theocrats in this country have failed to understand: When you raise a generation lacking critical thinking skills to further your own agenda, they will become susceptible to any and all ideologies. On the other hand, perhaps that's the idea. Its not so much about a belief in a god, its about raising an army that is easily led.
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I am. The scientific knowledge problem is much worse. The "literacy/language" problem is trivial and unimportant.
Come on. People get screwed up easily, and astrology is not an every-day word nor an important word, unless you actually look up an astrological prediction frequently. Just listen to a parent describing the characters on a show their kids like but they can't sit through, and you'll find some amusing word or syllable substitutions in major character names. I'm highly confident that with a lit