Gut Microbes Linked to Autism-Like Symptoms in Mice 160
sciencehabit writes "Many physicians and parents report that their autistic children have unusually severe gastrointestinal problems, such as chronic constipation or diarrhea. These observations have led some researchers to speculate that an ailing gut contributes to the disorder in some cases, but scientific data has been lacking. Now, a provocative study claims that a probiotic treatment for gastrointestinal issues can reduce autismlike symptoms in mice and suggests that this treatment could work for humans, too."
What about self-diagnosed aspie slashdotters? (Score:1)
They may need to find some other disorder to explain their anti-social behaviour and make them feel special.
Re:What about self-diagnosed aspie slashdotters? (Score:5, Funny)
I was just thinking that too ...
Chill man, just have some yogurt.
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My ex brother-in-law said after their divorce, "I think I might be autistic". My sister replied, "No, you're just an asshole".
common threads (Score:1)
Reminds me of when illness/death comes from some bad source of food and impacts a swath of people. It's always interested me to know how quickly and by what process the source is discovered. I know that when I feel weird and suspect bad food it's a bit of a challenge to think absolutely thoroughly back through every last thing I ate over the past X hours/days. I wonder if there are many other common threads such as this that might yield clues if researchers had more complete knowledge of every person wit
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The thing is that if it's gut microbes, then good food will cause problems too. It will depend exactly what the bacteria's preferred food source is though. And toxins from bacteria in your stomach can absolutely affect your mood and ability to function.
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The thing is that if it's gut microbes, then good food will cause problems too.
I'll just leave [wikipedia.org] this [wikipedia.org] here. And over there, and there, and some over there, and some in the air... Of course, that's a virus, not bacteria, but the principle is the same. What's in the food can feed or kill off what's in your gut already, or the food can be contaminated, and the contamination can outcompete or otherwise interfere with the biota upon which you depend for proper digestive function. Either one can wreak havoc on your digestive system. And let us not forget antibiotics' influence on your GI tra
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Depends.
Do you have an ulcer?
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Probably quite a lot through the course of the day, though I suppose a lot of them might die in that environment. I guess I should have said "gut", then. When I say "stomach" I'm often referring to the whole intestinal area, the same as someone might say "lie on your stomach", when in fact they mean your belly..
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about 7.....
it drops to 3 when I go on a bender.
Re:common threads (Score:5, Interesting)
They make people take a "food diary" when they think there's some sort of dietary involvement in a problem. You write down everything you consume so that you don't have to remember what you had in the three days before that migraine or outbreak of stomach cramps, or whatever. Could be interesting to blanket-issue food diaries and health questionnaires to a large population.
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I have a sibling who suffered from chronic diarrhea for most of his adult life. It turned out he had undiagnosed celiac disease (inability for his digestive system to tolerate gluten from grains). He had tried a gluten free diet for weeks at a time many times just as an experiment, and it didn't help. It turns out that some celiac suffers need to eat fanatically gluten free (including using
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I suspect you'll see a lot of the same phenomena that Neilson Ratings used to encounter, where people wrote down that they had watched a National Geographic documentary instead of the 'The Man Show' that they actually watched. Probably the count of diary-noted rice cakes would exceed the number of rice cakes manufactured by an order of magnitude.
How can you tell an autistic mouse? (Score:3)
Does it want to watch Wapner? Can it count cards? We need to come up with a better way of testing stuff out than on mice.
Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse? (Score:5, Informative)
Mazmanian and colleagues at Caltech used a mouse model of autism that is thought to approximately recreate three of the disorder's hallmark deficits: lack of social interaction, decreased communication (mice normally emit ultrasonic, birdsonglike chirps), and repetitive behaviors such as compulsive grooming or burying marbles.
They discovered increased levels of a particular bacterial metabolite in untreated autism-model mice versus normal mice or treated autism-model mice. Interestingly providing that metabolite to healthy mice increased anxiety but didn't cause any of the characteristic autistic symptoms.
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No, but if they are feeling sick and generally like crap they may have some more autism like symptoms, until they get better.
However Anxiety often called butterflies in your stomach for a reason. You feel a little stress and your body reacts to the stress which then feed backs to the brain and escalates it.
Now if you have Gut Bacteria (which we all do and for the most part it is a good thing) but your particular unique combination tends to react harder when you feel a little stress then it could cause the a
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You can identify an autistic mouse the same way as an autistic human, or any other mammal: Look inside its brain.
Seriously? Gut bacteria... For neurological structural issues? I mean, that's like blaming a fever on a nasal drip, or blaming a warp core breach on a tachyon emitter malfunction.
Look, we need to just ditch psychology. That's just confirmation bias: "Autism like", fucking please stop. Let the folks like neurologists and cyberneticians, who study how behaviours actually occur via observable ev
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relevant link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug [youtube.com]
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Please stop reading sensationalist journalism. Then learn the difference between psychology and psychiatry and who invented the dsm. Then learn about how 'medical' science in the US is driven by corporate greed.
Then learn how dumb you are because it's psychology that actually does more real 'science' than medical science. You might like to learn that modelling is used in ALL areas of science as well.
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Oh, it's not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody.
Interesting findings, for the lazy (Score:5, Interesting)
Firstly, they discovered that the autistic-model mouse had very different gut biota and suffered from digestive tract issues. The new bacterium didn't establish itself, but it did perturb the gut bacteria community to be closer to control mice, and reduced digestive tract issues.
Secondly, they discovered that this perturbation reduced the autism-model symptoms in the autism-model mice quite markedly.
Thirdly, they discovered a gut metabolite that was elevated in untreated autism-model mice versus control mice or treated autism-model mice. However providing that metabolite to control mice only caused an increase in anxiety behaviours, and not the specific autistic ones. So it's not just the metabolite which is responsible for the behaviours.
I wonder if there's some underlying difference in the neurology of the autism-model mice such that the metabolite "sets off" the autism-model behaviours rather than anxiety. Or perhaps the metabolite causes anxiety in both communities but the anxiety only then "sets off" the autism-model behaviours in the autism-model mice.
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I wonder if there's some underlying difference in the neurology of the autism-model mice such that the metabolite "sets off" the autism-model behaviours rather than anxiety. Or perhaps the metabolite causes anxiety in both communities but the anxiety only then "sets off" the autism-model behaviours in the autism-model mice.
Is it not the case that the metabolite is necessary for the problem bacteria to replicate - but that the healthy mice don't have these bacteria in the first place, so introducing it won't have the same effect?
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That's an interesting hypothesis, but the only bacterium they controlled for was one that helps not one that was causing any problems.
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Yep, but the one that helps disrupted the already established bacteria, probably by reducing their supply chain. The fact that this chemical was elevated 48 time above normal levels in the autistic mice suggests that it's produced by the "bad" bacteria somehow.
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On the other hand it's entirely possible that it's produced by the "good" bacteria and metabolised away by other good bacteria, and what's important is the balance. It simply hasn't been evaluated either way.
so...Flowers for Algernon in reverse? (Score:3)
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I like this line of thinking.
It's very likely that people with ASD are far more susceptible to anxiety and depression disorders, but this might be due to the ludicrous amount of bullying autistic children receive (38% in this study over a single month) [lww.com].
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"Probiotic" is the little Shibboleth that makes this smell like woo.
If poop transplants [wikipedia.org] can drastically improve health, why couldn't regulating your digestive system with probiotics? Yogurt is a probiotic. It has proven related health benefits. You're FUDding. Are you invested in Big Pharma? Or are you just being a dick?
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And before you ask no, I'm not heavily invested in big pharma. I am, however
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There is a vast difference between fecal transplants and the "probiotics" that you find in the healthfood section of your local store.
Yes, that's true. The former is for use in emergencies. The latter is what you use to avoid getting into an emergency situation. Because as it turns out, your intestines are possibly the home of your immune system in a very real way. Your gut bacteria turn out to be very important to immune defense, and what you eat has a direct influence on your gut bacteria. In particular, eating a lot of sugars feeds the harmful organisms and permits them to outcompete the beneficial ones.
The key difference is that one has been proven to work in rigorous and repeated scientific study, and the other has not.
Yes, that's what the FDA says ab
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If you had a structural defect, like a broken arm, and I prescribed yoghurt... You'd be pretty pissed off that I didn't tell you it was just calcium you needed and that I didn't mend your arm. You should be equally upset if you had a mental structural defect [youtube.com] and I told you to go eat shit.
Wakefield II (Score:4, Interesting)
Isn't this the same thing Wakefield was trying to prove before he committed research fraud and started the whole "vaccines cause autism" nonsense?
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His research was ostensibly to show whether the MMR vaccine - specifically the measles component - was the source of the digestive problems. The idea that the vaccine caused both the digestive problems and the autism was made up out of whole cloth for a press conference, to be blunt.
Wakefield was in the employ of lawyers at the time - he received government legal aid money, in fact - who were pursuing the autism-vaccination claim. Of course even if such a link could be found statistically, the strong causal
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Actually, you know what? This is wrong. Somehow my memory has completely overstated the measles thing - perhaps because it was pretty robust research - and completely neglected that the paper also had an autism hypothesis.
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(Well, robust but fake...)
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And, of course, Wakefield had his own MMR-replacement vaccine that he wanted to bring to market. So if he could prove that the MMR wasn't safe, he could swoop in, market his replacement, and make a lot of money. Of course, the anti-vax folks (and Wakefield himself) like to ignore this piece and accept Wakefield as being completely anti-vaccine.
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Why is "but he wanted money" always used to discredit someone being controversial and "but they make money" also not a point to consider that companies would cover up a causal link.
I'm not endorsing or dismissing Wakefield, but it's not like there is any way to FIGHT the entrenched immunization market without making money. Why can't a person make money solving a problem they just revealed to everyone?
Pure altruism seems to always be demanded if someone is fighting the status quo -- yet the status quo must a
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Because he didn't disclose this. If you disclose a conflict of interest, people can take it into account when they are listening to your argument. However, if you hide the fact that you stand to make a lot of money if your "study" is accepted because you already have an alternative ready to be marketed, it leads people to think the possibility of monetary gain might have led you to alter your study to come to the "right" conclusion.
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"we all know Wakefield was committing fraud..."
Right. The more corporate profit affects public discourse, the more certain we've become about CERTAIN FACTS.
The link between autism and stomach bacteria was also picked up by a lady by the name of Donna Gates who has been pushing the "Body Ecology Diet." I've been listening to her for a little over two decades and this link between stomach bacteria and a whole host of behavioral and health issues comes as no surprise.
I think that most food cravings, for instan
Vell! (Score:3)
Of course (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course gut microbe play a role. Some aggressive species are able to attack the gut's cells, which cause the leaky gut syndrome, where food proteins not completely digested can enter the bloodstream. The immune system will seek and destroy them, every day, on every meal. That can trigger allergies and autoimmune diseases.
Moreover proteins from milk and wheat contains sequences that are hard to break down, and that can activate morphine receptors in the brain. They are called caseomorphins and gliadomorphins. Some (but not all) autists have success in reducing their symptoms by adopting a diet without diary product and gluten, and it is suspected this is for that reason.
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Maybe "leaky gut syndrome" is to blame for some things. Or maybe it isn't. Scientific research isn't even sure it exists, which your post conveniently omits.
Leaky gut syndrome can be assessed, by looking at normally non digested sugars in urine. Here is a paper on the topic [bireme.br], and you can find many other ones.
(Also, allergies and autoimmune diseases are not the same thing as autism.)
I never said they were. I just pointed that in some case they have the same cause.
Didn't we already know this? (Score:2)
Re:Didn't we already know this? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's anecdotal and has no empirical backing. Pilot studies [springer.com] aren't showing promise, but a larger study is required to make any definitive conclusions.
It's likely because of the incidence of intestinal disorders, namely celiac disease, switching the diet is providing treatment for the specific disorder improves their children's symptoms, but isn't actually affecting the underlying autism.
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switching the diet is providing treatment for the specific disorder improves their children's symptoms, but isn't actually affecting the underlying autism.
LOL. The "symptom" is being non-functional and impaired IQ. If mitigating the symptoms means the child functions at a higher level, then let's throw out 90% of the "treatments" which don't cure that we get prescribed. And forget about anti-depressants because that's just a symptom suppressant as well.
I'm going to go ahead and say that the next GREAT medic
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I thought there was already a known connection between the gut bacteria and autism.
The best anyone can really say at this point is that gut bacteria might play a role in some peoples autistic symptoms, but certainly not all. It's not a panacea by a long shot. Some autistic children do see some improvement through the use of specialized diets. Others see no change at all. I'm the father of an autistic child who falls into the latter category -- on a typical diet she shows no propensity to constipation, diarrhoea, or other obvious digestive issues, and on a gluten and dairy free diet, s
When they start talking ... (Score:2)
10,000 bacteriums (Score:2)
are non-human and form an entire ecosystem that digests nutrients out of the substances we ingest,
it makes sense that good digestion is as fundamental to us as it is to a tree (which also relies on an exterior soil ecosystem).
This would also coincide with the apparent disease-like spread of autism thru the population.
The spread of autism also displays a flavor of inheritance and we aren't completely
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The "disease-like spread" of autism is a myth. What's really happening is that detection is getting better and better. Decades ago, you'd classify a child as "just shy" or "anti-social" or "odd ducks" and write them off (or try helping them but fail). If the child was far enough on the Autism spectrum, the child would be locked up and never spoken of again. (The family's "dirty little secret" of little Johnny who is kept locked up in his house and never allowed to interact with anyone else because nobod
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Depressingly enough this is what I believe also in regards to the rise in autism's prevalence. As a parent it kills me a little every time I see one of those shows on TV where they investigate special rooms in houses, typically in the attic or basement, where there is no doornob on the inside and the space has childrens belongings inside.
Futurama (Score:2)
'Maybe' onto something here.
There are 99556734974321 bacteria in my gut (Score:1)
I have just calculated that in my head. Am I safe?
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There really is something to this (Score:1)
There is a strict diet called the GAPS Diet [gaps.me] that both of these families followed and they began to see substanti
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Activiaaaaa...
Re:Nonsense! (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine the implications of an autism vaccine.
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There's already a good lead that amino acid supplementation may cure a certain rare form of autism [sciencemag.org], but there are many different causes. It's important to note that the study wasn't done on humans (research ongoing), and the type presents with intellectual disability (retardation) and epilepsy.
So the above doesn't actually treat "autism", it treats certain debilitating aspects of it. The personality nuances may still be intact after treatment, we don't know for sure yet.
In the study we're discussing now,
Re:Nonsense! (Score:5, Interesting)
That was what stood out to me. They noticed that the mice weren't as social, but they don't know WHY. I can't personally speak for the lower-functioning end of the Autism spectrum, but on the high functioning end (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome), the autistic individual WANTS very much to socialize, but literally doesn't know how. They can figure out how and "emulate" neurotypical enough to carry on conversations, but this is taxing on them and they can't keep it up forever without needing time to decompress. Like how an emulated application never runs as fast as a native application. Neurotypicals run "socializing" as a native app. Aspies emulate it (with varying degrees of success).
Add in the fact that Aspies can be so afraid of making a mistake while "emulating neurotypical" (possibly insulting someone) that it is easier and safer to just not interact at all. To the outside world, it looks like Aspies just are anti-social and would rather be left alone.
So maybe the mice really did want to socialize with other mice but didn't know the mouse social protocols that other mice knew instinctively. Or maybe there was another reason for their lack of socialization. At most, this might lead to treatments that remove some stumbling blocks which prevent autistic individuals from functioning in the neurotypical world. Not all stumbling blocks, but some of them. If it's a treatment that helps autistic individuals, great. If some woo folks grab onto this and start claiming to be able to "cure" autism by following their woo diet, very bad.
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Re:Nonsense! (Score:5, Funny)
Nonsense, it's obviously the vaccines! That chick that appeared on Playboy said so!
Don't worry, she'll go on national TV and apologize for all the harm she's done then spend the rest of her life making restitution.
Re:Nonsense! (Score:5, Interesting)
Didn't you hear? She cured her son's autism using a gluten-free diet and some other nonsense that you can probably read about in her book. Yes, Playboy Model cures a developmental disorder that scientists don't even have a complete understanding for yet. She must be a genius!
[end sarcasm]
(Disclaimer: Both my son and I have Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism and claims that someone is going to "cure" me or my son are just insulting. A treatment to alleviate symptoms for the folks on the "low functioning" end of the spectrum maybe, but curing someone implies that there's something wrong with that person and I don't see Autism as "wrong", just as a different way of thinking - one that happens to come in very handy at times.)
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Controlling your autism may help you land a job (Score:2)
My daughter and I are aspies, and I see no reason for a "cure."
Other than perhaps widespread discrimination by interviewers against people who show symptoms during the interview?
Office harmony and race (Score:2)
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Playboy Model cures a developmental disorder that scientists don't even have a complete understanding for yet. She must be a genius!
If she has a book full of easy-to-follow pictures, I'd probably skim it.
You know, just for the medical value.
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My son who is autistic started talking and became much more relaxed after cutting milk out of his diet. This was when he was in grade 1 and had only a couple of words and often became disruptive enough in class that he needed 2 strong men to remove him from class.
Afterwards the odd time when someone did feed him diary I could tell right away by how he was acting out. Eventually his IQ also went from 80 to 120 except in communicating (speech and writing) where it stayed at 80. Not a cure but it sure improved
Re: Nonsense! (Score:1)
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You forgot it requires Scientology application 3 times a day.
Re:Nonsense! (Score:5, Interesting)
Didn't you hear? She cured her son's autism using a gluten-free diet and some other nonsense that you can probably read about in her book. Yes, Playboy Model cures a developmental disorder that scientists don't even have a complete understanding for yet. She must be a genius!
[end sarcasm]
And what's wrong with that? Don't forget that science is bogged down by belief. I also 'cured' my autism through diet and other 'nonsense'.
(Disclaimer: Both my son and I have Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism and claims that someone is going to "cure" me or my son are just insulting. A treatment to alleviate symptoms for the folks on the "low functioning" end of the spectrum maybe, but curing someone implies that there's something wrong with that person and I don't see Autism as "wrong", just as a different way of thinking - one that happens to come in very handy at times.)
Oh grow up already. A cure doesn't mean you lose who you are, it means you discover more of who you are meant to be. Of course, most people, like you, are too scared shitless of being anything besides what they know and are comfortable with. Don't let your fears, biases, and beliefs affect your son, that would be more detrimental to him than any 'cure' could ever be. A point of view is only useful if one recognises it as just one tool in a full toolbox. If you can't change viewpoints at will then it is not a positive in your life, it means your reality is constrained. This applies to both NT's and autists.
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What if some day the "Hollywood model" is proven right?
I can think if a lot of entrenched "medical certainty" that has been overturned, and it seems to just morph into everyone "at the present time" believing in the infallibility of modern medicine.
Really, "modern medicine" is just a results based commercial hodge-podge that is only slightly better than the days when "modern medicine" was giving people bloodletting and mercury.
There are a few really good things like Penicillin that make up the bulk of "mode
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What if some day the "Hollywood model" is proven right?
Penn and Teller said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo [youtube.com]
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Exactly. Even if some study came out tomorrow proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Autism was caused by vaccines (and leaving out the fact that such a study would require a LOT of double and triple checking before it would be accepted), I'd still support the use of vaccines. Better to have a live child with autism then a neurotypical child who dies of measles, whooping cough, polio, etc.
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Well the original theory was that the combination of 3 live vaccines given to the very young overloaded part of their immune system and screwed up their guts. The fix at the time was considered to be splitting up the MMR vaccine into 3 shots spread out a bit in time. I was quite interested as my son was one of the children who coincidently stopped talking and started acting different in the week following his second MMR shot. I'll also note he has had very rank farts most of his life.
Later the weirdos with
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I have a grandson with autism, and his family is always joking about his rank farts. I never thought I'd be writing about farts on slashdot, but maybe there's something to this.
Re:Nonsense! (Score:4, Funny)
That chick that appeared on Playboy said so!
Playboy, you say? I'd let her vaccinate me
As a nerd I assume that "Playboy" is some playbook-gameboy hybrid?
No Playboy on your Playbook (Score:2)
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and far better articles than the New Yorker....
Really I DO read the articles...
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i agree, the playmate resume's are excellent reading material
Re:Load of BS as usual about autism. (Score:5, Insightful)
Autism is genetic and is also influenced / is a function of the environment they are brought up in
Did you consider that it might not be passed on through DNA at all, and completely is a result of the environment, including the bacteria that your mum's side of the family have in their body? Or perhaps your DNA makes you more susceptible to these bacteria. I've been trying to figure out how exactly food affects my mood and behaviour for a while now..
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Did you consider that it might not be passed on through DNA at all, and completely is a result of the environment,
I would be inclined to say that you do not know a lot of people with a history of Autism in the family.
As I said, it is genetic, but is also environmental, It can be from a singular source, genetic or environmental. At the end of the day it is about how the brain is wired, Its psychological at is its foundation. Eat healthy and have a varied diet, keep away from the junk / fast and sugar filled foods, drink lots of water etc. Plus a good amount of contructive socialising is the best recommendation.
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Sure, that's what science "knows" about it so far, but the idea that gut bacteria are a deciding factor also fits perfectly along with your "genetic or environmental" concept. If all you have is a hammer (genetics, environmental observation) then everything looks like a nail. Maybe there's more to it than bacteria, but the chemicals that we put into our body very obviously can affect behaviour and mental state.
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At the end of the day it is about how the brain is wired, Its psychological at is its foundation.
If it's about how the brain is wired, then it's neurological, not psychological. Autism is generally classified as a neurological disorder.
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Actually, Autism is a developmental disorder. For example, my son with Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism is ten years old. Socially, though, he's about six. (Coincidentally, the same age as his younger, neurotypical brother.) Intellectually, though, he's about 12 so teaching him can be very challenging. He'll grasp concepts quickly, get bored, and engage in socially inappropriate behaviors that someone years younger than he is would consider funny. (Thankfully, many of his peers understand a
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I think the need to label it as coming from Vaccines/antibiotics/whatever also comes from the lack of control parents feel as well. Their child isn't developing "normally" and, if it is genetics, they would have been unable to have stopped or prevented this. If the problem is that vaccines (or some other completely unproven factor) is to blame then if they only did X or didn't do Y, their kid would be "normal" and they can "help" other parents by advocating for/against that thing.
There's a post going arou
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Stuff can't be fixed when it's constantly being attacked.
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its genetic and or environmental ... there is a history of Autism being blamed on whatever is convenient to blame it on
Which is it? Is autism a real neurological condition, caused by genetic and/or environmental factors, or is it a BS diagnosis used to excuse poor parenting?
there is a history of Autism being blamed on whatever is convenient to blame it on, rather than addressing the real issues, which when you get down to it, is about supporting the person in question, so they are more able to interact with people on a normal level
So having autism per se isn't a real issue? It's not neurological? Or is it such a mild neurological condition that the only "real issue" is "supporting the person in question"?
Your autism is mild. It may cause you anxiety, social difficulties and whatnot, but so can a million other things. If the spectrum went no further than your level, it would be a d
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It not only addresses the role bacteria plays in autism, downs, etc
Daft question: If she has all the answers - why is there research still being done?
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Irritation causes inflammation. It might appear to be a disease if you can't figure out what is causing the irritation.
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It's not ignorant to think that food plays a role in bowel problems. There are many recognised conditions that are aggravated by certain foods.. so to think that simply taking a pill, but continuing to eat any old shit is a good way to treat it.. that's pretty a pretty ignorant way of looking at it.
Going on a low carbohydrate diet a few years ago (to lose weight) cleared up several other problems that I wouldn't have even related to diet at the time (such as my nose almost always being irritated and blocked
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I have a tip for you then, you probably don't need to go 'no-carb'.
I stopped eating wheat and dairy for bowel problems. I replaced wheat with spelt (different grain) for bread, cookies, pasta etc. And not only did it for me also solve nose issues as well as the bowel issues, I also lost the 20kg weight I had gained since my early twenties.
I personally believe that in stead of no carb, people should go with the right carbs.