Faculty To Grad Students: Go Work 80-Hour Weeks! 454
Posted
by
Soulskill
from the and-stop-doing-that-annoying-sleep-thing dept.
from the and-stop-doing-that-annoying-sleep-thing dept.
New submitter Ian Paul Freeley writes "Controversy has erupted after a departmental email from faculty to astrophysics graduate students was leaked. Key tips for success in grad school include: 'However, if you informally canvass the faculty (those people for whose jobs you came here to train), most will tell you that they worked 80-100 hours/week in graduate school. No one told us to work those hours, but we enjoyed what we were doing enough to want to do so...If you find yourself thinking about astronomy and wanting to work on your research most of your waking hours, then academic research may in fact be the best career choice for you.' Reactions from astronomy blogs has ranged from disappointment to concern for the mental health of the students. It also seems that such a culture, coupled with the poor job prospects for academics, is continuing to drive talent away from the field. This has been recognized as a problem for over 15 years in the astronomy community, but little seems to have changed. Any tips for those of us looking to instigate culture change and promote healthy work-life balance?"
truth sucks (Score:2, Funny)
What's next, children don't want Santa?
Re:truth sucks (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
You say that like it makes the angst/violence any more acceptable.
It would still be just as unacceptable if he was merely his father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Re:truth sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
The point is that if working 80-100 hours a week is the norm for those students, then many of them are going to suffer and be un healthy, and we as a society should not simply accept, condone or encourage that. I mean do the math: 100 hours of work in one week means 14.5 hours a day, every day. That's INSANE. Considering the average person needs 9 hours of sleep per night to stay healthy, that leaves them the choice of either not sleeping enough, or having 30 minutes of time away from work per day. No prob, it's just enough time for a shit and shower! You can eat while you work.
If there's a joke here, it's that anyone thinks its ok for this to be a reality check.
Re:truth sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact is you get rich and success by working hard.
What you really meant was, "People become successful by working hard on the right things." Unfortunately, the first thing graduate students discover when they begin their research careers is that they are not going to be working on "the right things," that research work is not what they thought, and that the likelihood that their PhD work will be worth mentioning (beyond the fact that they did PhD work) is very low. Here are some characteristics of research as a graduate student:
There are exceptions, but the reality of research is that it is mostly incremental, it is mostly determined by what NSF/NIH/DARPA want to see researched, and it is loaded with overstatements of results. Most outsiders do not notice this, because the only way to learn enough about a topic to even notice this trend is to become a researcher in that field. Most graduate students are embarrassed to be part of such a system, so they convince themselves that they are not actually doing it (but they really are, with a few rare exceptions).
Re: (Score:3)
In a short statement, you summarized 2002-2005 for me. Until I realized I could make more of a difference and make more money at the same time doing something totally different, it probably would have been my life from 2005-now as well...
Re: (Score:3)
If you want to get ahead the answer is easy. WORK! - Larry Winget
Fuck "getting ahead". Getting ahead is living the life you want.
If my employer spouted off some bullshit about how I needed to or I'd be the first let go then I'd quit on the spot. If he wants to recruit slave labor, have at it.
Exchange 2013 is very different from Exchange 2003. It will take a good several months at 15 hours a week minimum on top of your sys admin job to really start to get a handle on it.
This is where I hire or outsource 15h
Re:truth sucks (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the amount of hours you work have little bearing on how successful you are.This is especially true in any area where you are reporting to a boss. If you run your own business, the time you spend on it is time you pay yourself, and time you spend advancing your own career. Anywhere else, a large chunk of success depends on the whims of management and the competence of the executive team.
I'll be happy to check back with you in a few years and see whether you think that that overtime was worth it.
Re: (Score:2)
So, is the cycle to work 80 hours until you get tenure? Or until the next batch of noobs shows up?
Because one is MUCH more palatable than the other.
Re: (Score:3)
I Have An Answer! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:truth sucks (Score:4, Informative)
As a PhD student I was a TA to several courses. Most of the time there were 140-180 students in the class. I needed to organize 4 tutorial sessions. We had 3 exams (2 mid, 1 final) and 3 assignments.
I would say the most destructive thing in regard to my PhD research progress was the huge amount of work I supposed to do. I officially was supposed to work 9 hours/week but it was many times more than that.
strike (Score:2, Interesting)
Med School (Score:4, Insightful)
This reminds me of the push 10 years ago to reduce the hours inflicted on med school students and residents.
Hasn't seemed to have made a huge difference in their workload, though.
Re:Med School (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Won't anyone think about the stars??!!
Re:Med School (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
FWIW USAF aircraft maintainers are generally restricted from working over twelve hour shifts because decision-making and quality of maintenance deteriorates with longer shifts. As an experienced maintainer I agree. One incorrectly installed bolt and you can lose an aircraft, crew, and much more.
Working longers shifts than that at any demanding task is usually stupid. I'll assume it's a macho holdover from Stupid Traditions Past, but if you are manned for 24/7 shifts then give orders to schedule your people
Re: (Score:3)
Those are all Force Majeur ... but if it happens every week something different is going on.
Take a tip from the MDs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
This sounds shockingly similar to the (possibly still-ongoing, I'm not sure) controversy over 36-hour shifts for doctors. The only real justification is "We did it when we were young, so today's young'uns should do it too! Never mind what the data says!"
Fortunately, black holes can't sue for malpractice.
Re:Take a tip from the MDs (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Take a tip from the MDs (Score:5, Informative)
Grad School (Score:5, Insightful)
Impossible to damage an astronomy grad any more (Score:4, Informative)
I thought they were all already mentally ill to begin with.
time to get a job on wall street (Score:2)
i hear the stock market is like modelling the galaxy
Re:time to get a job on wall street (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:time to get a job on wall street (Score:4, Informative)
Not a binary decision. Work the $150K job for 6 years or until downsized, bank the whole thing, go back to academia for your $20K/yr 80 hr/wk job, withdraw money from the bank account to hire a clone of yourself willing to work for $20K/yr at only 40 hours, then give him half your workload and both of you coast along at 40 hrs? At zero interest rate, 150 * 6 / 20 is still 45 years...
Re:time to get a job on wall street (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Typical signing bonus is about 1/2 of salary, so that should cover taxes for a couple of years.
Re: (Score:2)
Pardon me, but what the hell in Astrophysics is so important that you have to work holidays!!!
Its not like the stars are going to disappear, or the laws of physics are going to change overnight if you don't get it done now.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:time to get a job on wall street (Score:4, Funny)
I hate to break it to you, but the eventual application of your research (if any) will primarily help rich people make even more money.
High Skilled Professions put in more hours (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:High Skilled Professions put in more hours (Score:4, Funny)
One out of three ain't bad.
Re:High Skilled Professions put in more hours (Score:5, Insightful)
"More than 40" is not the same as "80." I've hit 60 hours in a week before, but at 80 I doubt I'd be any more productive.
Re:High Skilled Professions put in more hours (Score:5, Insightful)
The letter-to-students suggests that 80-hours should be the regular work-week, that works out to:
16/hours a day 5 days per week, or
13/hours a day 6 days per week, or
11/hours a day 7 days per week.
Assuming 7 hours of sleep, three 0.5 hour lunch diversions, 1 hour for commuting, and 0.5 hours/day for bathroom breaks, this leaves the person with about 2.5 hours/day for everything else: running errands, doing laundry, exploring hobbies, relaxing, etc. This is not a fun way to live, and it's also not a sustainable way to live/work: trying to work that hard inevitably results in people being burnt-out, constantly tired, and not very productive. This is especially true in highly-skilled jobs, where the quality of your work comes down to how alert your mind is, and how creative you are... both of which require rest, relaxation, and time spent on diversions.
The 80-hour week is also a lie. That's not how much the professors worked when they were in grad school. No doubt they worked 80-hour weeks on occasion, and those may have even been productive weeks. But there's no way they sustained that kind of work for the entirety of grad school. When I was in grad school we all routinely worked long hours (more than 40 hours/week), and occasionally crazy hours (80 hour/weeks not at all unheard of). But students who tried (e.g. because of pressure from their supervisor) to sustain crazy 70+ hour weeks burned out incredibly quickly.
The letter was trying to encourage the students to work hard and be passionate, which are indeed crucial for grad school. But by setting an arbitrary and frankly ridiculous rule like "80 hours/week" undermines this message.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:High Skilled Professions put in more hours (Score:4, Insightful)
40 is a far cry from 80 though.
however.. astrophysicists? .. do they really get "more" done by working 80 hours vs 20 ? do their data analyze programs run more hours if they're at the desk more hours? is there more data available to them if they work 80 hours - will they come up with any better theories this way? do they get more hours assigned to them at their observatories?
is there ANY benefit form them working more hours except it'll look better as in more worked hours per budget dollar on the institutions yearly report, that's the question.
besides than that it's bullshit if they got told to work those hours or not - they most certainly were, not just on an official piece of paper because it sounds so fucked up.
more hours != more accomplishments (Score:5, Insightful)
What I have seen in graduate students is lots of inability to concentrate and make good decisions on top of exhaustion and insomnia. I have seen months spent going down the wrong track because of an inability to think clearly. I have seen late nights spent fixing things that were messed up due to tiredness. I have seen students who can't get anything done in the lab because they hate grad school and can't enjoy doing anything else because they feel that they should be in the lab.
Want proof? Look at how many graduate theses start with a 100-page literature review, covering material which is well known and not particularly important to the real research. The appropriate material would be 15 pages and lots of references. That review represents many months of wasted energy and probably lots of 80 hour weeks accomplishing nothing of value.
Re: (Score:2)
Most of us with degrees and skills usually put in more than 40 hours a week in our work. We do it because we enjoy the work, the pay is good, and our employers give us time off when we want it. Besides, it doesn't mean your stuck behind a desk for 10-12 hours a day. Many of us take our work on the go, or do some of it from home.
But why? I have all the above, except I never need to work on the go, and I work 37½ hours a week. I get 30 days paid leave a year, paid sick leave, etc.
If you really meant only 40 hours then that's fine, but the article is about working double that amount.
Some People Enjoy Their Jobs (Score:2, Insightful)
I guess most people just don't like to hear that some of us enjoy our careers enough that it is one of our primary hobbies. I easily spend 60-80 hours working on some software development related task (even if it is just reading a book), and I don't consider myself overworked.
Re:Some People Enjoy Their Jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Who said anything about lower pay? When I was hired it was because of the knowledge and capabilities that I have because of the effort I put in. I would be a good developer if I never studied or worked on personal projects outside of work, but I wouldn't be as good. And based on discussions I have had with friends in the field about their pay, I am well paid for the extra skillsets I bring to the table.
Employees should get paid less than me if all they do in their free time is go boating. They are less
Re: (Score:2)
Who said anything about lower pay? When I was hired it was because of the knowledge and capabilities that I have because of the effort I put in. I would be a good developer if I never studied or worked on personal projects outside of work, but I wouldn't be as good. And based on discussions I have had with friends in the field about their pay, I am well paid for the extra skillsets I bring to the table.
Aah, there's the miscommunication - you apparently work somewhere cool.
FTR, most employers I've encountered out there don't give 2 shits about your knowledge and capabilities, all they want is another drone who will earn them money while accepting shit for compensation, working far more hours than what they're really being paid for ('salaried' apparently == slave), and who won't stand up for themselves when said employer decides to put a little more boot pressure on their throats.
Employees should get paid less than me if all they do in their free time is go boating. They are less valuable (unless their natural skill is great enough that it trumps my extra work).
The irony, of course, is
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Who said anything about lower pay? When I was hired it was because of the knowledge and capabilities that I have because of the effort I put in. I would be a good developer if I never studied or worked on personal projects outside of work, but I wouldn't be as good. And based on discussions I have had with friends in the field about their pay, I am well paid for the extra skillsets I bring to the table.
Employees should get paid less than me if all they do in their free time is go boating. They are less valuable (unless their natural skill is great enough that it trumps my extra work).
That doing extra outside of business hours works for you is great, but what makes you think someone who doesn't is less valuable, and that if they're as valuable then it represents natural skill?
There's a lot that can be learned from pretty much everything, hobby-level or not. I don't believe that efforts not directly related to one's work are useless.
For example, I like to play Magic: the Gathering. Done it for years. While not certified, people in general like playing around me because I'm very good at th
Re: (Score:3)
How come your boat is more of a life than a hobby of coding?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
but I'm happier than I think I'd be if I had taken a job on wall street that was offered to me out of undergrad, for $150k a year.
Sorry, you're talking shit outta your ass if you think you could have gotten a $150k a year job on Wall Street out of undergrad, let alone with an Astronomy degree.
Several of my classmates got more than that, two of them with astronomy degrees (one BA and one BS) right out of undergrad. It depends on your school. At mine we basically had an open invitation to come work for several of the Wall Street firms, though among the people I knew only the poorest students took that invitation.
Re: (Score:2)
In my present employment I can and do work over 80 hours a week and I'm happy as a clam, since it isn't 80 hours of corporate bullshit, it's 80 hours of engineering. The problem is not what I want or what the boss wants, it's what my family wants. When I was a college kid I could have logged those hours if I enjoyed it w/o a problem. But now, even though I actually have no problem with doing what I'm assigned to do, for as long as it takes to do it, I simply must not.
No one should be in a position where any
Re: (Score:2)
I think the problem has to do with this being applied too broadly to expect that everyone should work 80 hours a week. Working 60-80 hour work weeks is becoming expected. Managers get it in their heads that anyone unhappy about working 80 hours a week for terrible pay is not "committed" or "a team player". Suddenly everyone feels the pressure to stick around the office until 8pm, even if they're just looking at Facebook, because the first person to leave the office is viewed as "lazy".
And you know what?
Re: (Score:2)
Ummm, I don't count the time I work on my DVR at home as "work" even though its technically in the same field I work in.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah? For how long? A month? Year? Lifetime?
Indefinetly. I am not talking about 60-80 hours fixing bug tickets. I agree that working much more than 50 hours at my job where I am mostly told what to do would make me burn out fast.
But programming is one of my hobbies, and has been for the last 20 years. I almost always have something I am curious about, and most questions that can't easily be answered with a Google search take actual work to figure out. Whether I am writing an app to help me draft my next fantasy team, downloading census data to se
Re: (Score:3)
The story we are posting under is talking about work done while doing graduate work. If you are doing a graduate thesis on something you are not passionate about, you need to re-think your decision. I am using the same definition of work used in this story. They don't mean grading papers 80 hours per week. They mean doing research towards your thesis. The paper even mentions that they know some of the work is going to be done at home.
I have said in many of my posts that I do not mean work under the con
It's true (Score:4, Interesting)
My wife is finishing grad school with a PhD and getting the hell out of Dodge. She's already found a job related to science/academia in her field that pays more and has better benefits than anything she could expect as a post-doc or assistant professor. It's a stable job where she can see clear career advancement over the coming years. This as opposed to an academic career where she wouldn't have much say in what part of the country she ended up and would have to work like crazy (publish or perish is so true) in an attempt to maybe get tenure 15+ years down the road.
Not to mention that more than a few of her advisers and colleagues have been having serious funding issues. She's in a field where lots of funding comes from the NIH and they're cutting back like crazy. It's not a very good climate right now.
Re: (Score:2)
Supply and Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
Good. That's what is supposed to happen. The truth is we don't have a need for a large number of astronomers. If we did then there would be more job prospects. Since we don't have the need, it's good that talent is being driven to other fields where there is greater need. Those who love astronomy so much that they can't work anywhere else and are willing to put in the long hours - those people can still work in astronomy. Those less committed can go make themselves more useful elsewhere. Supply and demand is not just a good idea, it's the law.
Re:Supply and Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
How do you define a "need" for astronomers? This research is completely subsidized by the government. We could do ten times as much, we could do none at all. It's completely our choice. The laws of supply and demand don't work out normally when demand is arbitrarily determined by congress.
I suppose you'd say that the free market should fund astronomical research. Well good luck making that happen.
Re:Supply and Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Supply and Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
FTFY.
Astrology != science.
Astronomy does have weird hours (Score:2)
Inherent Effect of the System (Score:2)
This is not limited to Astrophysics. I know a lot of students (both, grad and PhD) that work basically 'round the clock, from fields as diverse as bio-chemistry, materials science and computer science. I'm hesitant to call this even call this a problem. What few realize at the beginning of their academic career is that science is actually a lot like sports: it is constant competition. It's all about who can discover/prove/engineer the next milestone first. There is no such thing in science as a runner-up. T
Re: (Score:2)
Every paper is a stunning breakthrough? Every paper is the one that gets your name in the history books? I don't think so, I recall grads doing a lot of bullshit papers for completely non-technical reasons (quotas, resume count, etc.). Drugs are not the only commodity in which addiction is bad for you, and in which you develop a broken frame of mind in order to get the next fix.
Re: (Score:2)
Can't find the word "every" in my post. Obviously there is a lot of BS out there. But brilliant stuff, too. Stuff that revolutionizes our lives.
I'm not saying that the system by itself is good. I'm just saying that it drives people into enslaving themselves in pursuit of degrees, career, and yes, their place in history. Even though the latter are few. Approx. as few as there are, say... olympic gold medal winners? Would you call top athletes mental, too?
Re: (Score:3)
What few realize at the beginning of their academic career is that science is actually a lot like sports: it is constant competition. It's all about who can discover/prove/engineer the next milestone first. There is no such thing in science as a runner-up. Those who come in second, are the first to be scooped. Period.
This is the major problem with modern science. It encourages corner cutting, result hyping, and the file drawer problem.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Inherent Effect of the System (Score:5, Insightful)
Quit whining (Score:3)
I remember a time in college when I was working 64 hours a week and carrying a load of 12 hours, half of it comp sci. The trick there was to find at least one BS job in there (typically graveyard shift) where you could do your homework and, hopefully, another large company job that kicks educational benefits in for a least a class or two a semester.
Tough? Yes. Would I do it again? Speaking from a zero-debt, never unemployed (unless I wanted to be) point of view - it was the best thing I could have done in my early 20s.
Witnessed this (Score:5, Interesting)
What I did involved coming in at random times of the day. I can remember was that the worst employees were the ones sweating the long hours. Then after the lawyer came in those same guys were singled out for their dedication and hard work.
Oh the lawyer unsuccessfully tried suing them after their success.
Wake. Code. Coffee. Code. Eat. Code. Sleep. Code. (Score:3, Insightful)
As a code addict, I see nothing wrong with doing what you love +80hrs per week. Last I checked I was at ~108 hours per week of coding, it's what I do for fun & profit and I've been doing it since age 8 -- If people want to pay me for doing it, well that's just awesome. (repeat sentence with subject as: sex/masturbation, shopping, drugs, etc. instead of code until you "get it").
I talked to a girl the other day who works in the mortgage industry managing compliance with government regulations in 50 states... I felt bad for her because her job actually feels like Work, and mine feels like poetry/pool/hide&seek/sculpture... Anything but "work", sure at times it's tedius but I could say the same about HO scale train sets. If you feel as passionate about astronomy as I do about writing code, go for it! Don't let them keep you from "working"!
Point: Missed (Score:2)
Clearly, the point being expressed there is that people who love the field so much *choose* to devote those types of hours.
Now, perhaps this was an indirect way of letting students know that they're *expected* to devote those hours, or that if they don't, they're likely to be out-competed. But taking the words at face value, it's saying that if you really love astronomy, you may find yourself spending hours like that.
If you're a grad student who isn't comfortable with that, then don't do it. It's up to you
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't say that point is entirely missed. As a grad student, I can vouch for it being a very tough life (at times - it's not spreading tar on roofs after all). Some profs slog their students with work and it's not entirely 'right'. The conception is that something has to push the "lesser" students out so that only the best examples make it through a degree program. So you get things like unrealistic lab work and homework that amounts to three times the practice actually needed.
Yes, if you like what you'
Re: (Score:2)
The conception is that something has to push the "lesser" students out so that only the best examples make it through a degree program.
That's a correct conception. Depending on the field of course, there might only be academic positions for a small fraction of the people who make it all the way to the end of the program.
Its very much like pro sports. Not a bad life if you end up as a NFL quarterback with a long career. Of course the odds of that are rather low.
This is reality (for some) (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Dirac once said that "no one can work hard on a serious intellectual problem for more than 4 hours a day."
Your argument is invalid.
I can attest... (Score:5, Interesting)
I was not a grad student in astrophysics, I was Electrical/Computer Systems Engineering, but I can attest that those hours DO have a detrimental effect on the mental health of the grad students. It happened to me. My work schedule was basically around the clock seven days a week. I was under a lot of pressure from school/work (same thing for me in those days) and from general lack of money. I was in a bad mood most of the time and my relationships soured. I began to feel isolated. I wasn't sleeping. My health started to suffer in a few areas, culminating in a hospital stay when I got mono and tried to work through it. Finally I had a run-in with the police that almost escalated to an arrest. I did still have to go to court for excessive traffic tickets. I had a mental breakdown. The next week my adviser came in and told me to write up my thesis and get out of there. It was a dark time.
Anyway, that letter coming from the school is very, very disappointing. I feel sorry for the students in that program that must now bear that extra pressure.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm a grad student, and my life sounds a lot like that. Or, well, it used to. I decided one semester in that there was no way I was staying for a PhD. Even my research-heavy MS is overload. But, I've learned to avoid the people that I love unless I am in a stress-free state (the light day of the weekend or semester break or whatever). My girlfriend and I have had to set ground rules (my proposal) so that I don't unload all my stress on her. They mostly revolve around me taking some time to decompress
Tell me Professor (Score:3, Insightful)
So, Mr(s). Tenured Professor, how many hours a week do you work for that $200,000 salary?
Re: (Score:3)
The simple fact is that nice tenured positions are rare (and increasingly so), and they are given according to merit, and that is a recipe for harsh competition. Full professors at research universities are not just people who bothered to ge
MOD PARENT DOWN (Score:3)
So, Mr(s). Tenured Professor, how many hours a week do you work for that $200,000 salary?
There are virtually no tenured professors in the US being paid that much. Whoever wrote that comment is pulling number out of their ass to push their misinformed agenda. The only people at most universities who are paid at that level are top executives (who don't teach or conduct research, and should not be called professor) or sports coaches.
Re: (Score:3)
Sounds Familiar (Score:2)
My last two semesters in grad school (Computer Science) saw me spending about 16 hours a day in the lab, usually six days out of the week. Occasionally I wouldn't even go home to sleep. I would pass out for a couple hours on the floor and get back to work. Sometimes someone would kinda nudge me and say "Hey we've got a tour coming through, can you go sleep somewhere else?"
Ended up having a complete mental break one night, after reading a story about a guy who's Mom had died and he found a bunch of gifts fro
Poppy cock (Score:2)
The work is endless !! (Score:2)
To quote Dan Truman "beg'n your pardon sir, but it's a big-ass sky"
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0053372/quotes [imdb.com]
Simple steps (Score:4, Interesting)
Any tips for those of us looking to instigate culture change and promote healthy work-life balance?
You won't change the system from the outside. Therefore you must subvert it:
depends on what you want (Score:2)
Great discoveries rarely come from those who do not
live for their work.
The professors want you to do their research... (Score:2)
The professors want you to do their research for them, so they can publish it in a journal. So they come up with these requirements that you sit around and do their menial labor for them.
Here's an idea - either accept that in grad school, you're your professor's bitch, or get out there and get a real job, and confine your research to your free time. Of course, if you aren't attached to a university no journal will publish your findings (no matter how interesting) but no longer do researchers have to lick
What the faculty really want to say... (Score:4, Funny)
Advice? (Score:2)
Get a real job....
Work 80 hours a week! (Score:5, Insightful)
While producing your thesis!
Watch faculty position offered to applicant from China or India!
Win!
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
As devil's advocate no one says that you are entitled to any specific standard of living. You could also choose to live in a small apartment with other people and choose inexpensive food and clothing and deny yourself needless devices and subscription tv all while stashing a sizable chunk of your income into savings and investments, but are you?
Re: (Score:2)
Compilers interesting, nock "suck", (Score:2)
You had a bad teacher or something then, I enjoyed the hell out of my compiler class in my CS degree.
I would also rate a compiler class as one of the things more practical in later work experience, as off and off I have actually used LEX/YACC for real work related projects.
In a degree that can be really abstract at times, understanding compilers well has a clear value that will last you quite a long time.
Re: (Score:3)
I've known enough grad students (and Ph.D'ed people) to know that's how they enjoy their time.
Re:Get a life (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Get a life (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes there is. In the cases I've seen, it's been both. They have said, if you don't enjoy it, do something else, because you keep doing it, even after you are a grad student.
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't apply. Sometimes dreams are best left as dreams.