America Losing Its Edge In Innovation 757
jaywhybee writes "Forbes has an interesting article about America losing its edge in innovation because engineers and scientists in the US are not as respected as they are in other countries, and thus fewer youths aspire to become one. Quoting: 'I’ve visited more than 100 countries in the past several years, meeting people from all walks of life, from impoverished children in India to heads of state. Almost every adult I’ve talked with in these countries shares a belief that the path to success is paved with science and engineering. In fact, scientists and engineers are celebrities in most countries. They’re not seen as geeks or misfits, as they too often are in the US, but rather as society’s leaders and innovators. In China, eight of the top nine political posts are held by engineers. In the US, almost no engineers or scientists are engaged in high-level politics, and there is a virtual absence of engineers in our public policy debates.'"
They once were (Score:5, Interesting)
These days we have Homer Simpson and the King of queens, et al.
Given the anti-intellectial cheerleading.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Does anyone remember a film called 'A Face in the Crowd' that was done in the 1950s? This anti-intellectual bumpkin rises to the top of the media ladder on a wave of folksy intolerance and blather. Well, this was satire that's become truth. This weird form of popularism has become a way of attacking anyone with expertise. Elites are bad. People with specific knowledge are bad. If it's not blue collar around his neck -- DON'T TRUST HIM!
Amazingly enough, the brainwork of innovation doesn't thrive in that culture.
Written by someone who obviously is neither (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:public policy is made by real economics (Score:2, Interesting)
You can debate in government until you are blue in the face, but if the government is the one destroying the economy, it will not help you, will not see things your way.
From an outsider's perspective, I'd have to disagree. I don't see your government doing that much differently than it has in the past. What I do see is corporate-controlled media promote a general deference to large companies. For instance, where innovators once thought of creating that great new gadget, then bringing it to market and building a huge company, I now see people who simply want to make that great gadget, then sell out to the first big company with a wad of cash. There is an inherently non-competitive mindset being entrenched, and IMO is the single greatest stifling force your imaginative entrepreneurs are up against. There is also the insane culture of litigation. Noone, *noone* can expect to bring a new thing to market in America, without enduring a barrage of utterly ridiculous lawsuits. If your product is popular enough to supply an income, the lawyers make sure that the bulk of it is diverted into their profession.
Re:Given the anti-intellectial cheerleading.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Elites are bad. People with specific knowledge are bad.
No shit. We're having a great debate right now about the direction of our school district - no money, teachers getting laid off, school days are being cut, all that jazz. Instead of people saying "We need to fix the schools", the attack seems to be focused on teachers themselves - "cut their benefits, make them work for free" - and the involved parents, who have been called "elitist" and "segregationist" for wanting a good education for their kids. Note that the "segregationist" label is being applied to the mexican immigrants parents, the vietnamese immigrant parents, equally as much as the white native parents....
The message is clear - we want the cheapest teachers we can get, and we want parents who don't give a shit, so our kids can go to dumbed down schools as long as we don't have to pay a dime to the school system.
My kids attended half a year at a school in the Czech Republic. Every teacher there had an advanced degree; at least a Masters equivalent. A significant percentage had Doctorates. Class sizes are held to 22 kids. Kids attend school 10 months out of the year and get few holidays and vacations.
It's a scary thing, being in the US right now.
Too busy at sports practice (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot of problems. (Score:4, Interesting)
I go back to the same set of problems being responsible for this; and they're especially obvious having lived in Asia for several years.
1) An excessive and irrational fixation on "being yourself". American culture is obsessed with stressing the supposed significance of being a special little snowflake. I can't count the number of children's shows that harp on about this nonsense. The irony is that Americans end up conforming themselves to pre-defined pigeon holes anyway way worse that I've seen in other countries.
And with this comes the idiocy that you're not going to be told what to do. You're going to live your life your own way. And that brings me to number 2:
2) A fixation on pleasure. American culture portrays this unrealistic image of what life should be. Basically, if we're not mountain climbing, or doing some other extreme activity, by day and not actively participating in the bar/club scene at night we're not living life. So what does that mean? We're supposed to devote our lives to pleasure and not work. We're suckers if we work for a living.
There's also this tendency to "do what you love" as opposed to doing what will ensure success. Along with this comes the compulsive desire to make science and math fun. I think that's great but in the right context. The fact is that science and math usually isn't fun; it's a lot of hard work. So stop instilling unrealistic expectations in the youth that they can grow up to do fun things.
3) A crap work ethic. Too many Americans have an awful work ethic. They do just enough to get by but somehow think they're entitled to that job. Far too often I seen people rationalize that mentality by arguing that they deserve better, that they could do what management does. Maybe they can, but given that they can barely do their own jobs right, I wouldn't bet on it. There's too much self-righteousness going around.
Not that Asia is this wonderland of success. There are a lot of people who end up going nowhere in life and get just as screwed as anyone you might find in the states. A common problem I encountered was that a lot of men were so obsessed with having their own business, despite lacking the skills or resources to accomplish this, that they refused to get a job and work for someone else. Some would get some low-wage job like driving taxis but most lived off their parents and, if married, their wives. I'd say a lot of that is due to the excessive positive reinforcement and generally spoiled lives a lot of boys there have encountered growing up. And in general, I've been seeing the same cultural attitudes we have in the US cropping up there.
But the fact is that by and large hard work is still valued. Parents instill the importance of education and hardwork in their kids. They engage them in activities they're convinced will ensure academic success. They aren't fixated on raising athletes, celebrities or kids who are socially popular. And people tend choose careers based on what will provide the best living, not what will make them happiest. And they work their asses off, putting in long hours on a regular basis.
I know quite a few couples where the father barely sees their kids. And while not happy about the situation their perspective is that it's better to work hard now and ensure a good education and better life for their kids. Some of them probably don't even think that far, this is simply how life is.
My point has meandered a bit here, but the gist of what I'm saying is that Americans, and Europeans, don't value hard work like Asians do, but they're sure convinced they're entitled to success.
Re:What's missing from this article? (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe that it says more about politics than innovation that few engineers and scientists choose to enter politics. Perhaps engineers and scientists feel that they can't succeed with a well researched fact-based viewpoint against the slippery populist rhetoric of typical politicians. It's either that, or politicians have provided the ideal environment for engineers and scientists such that they feel there is no need to effect change through politics.
Re:They once were (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems like you cannot understand the intelligence behind the social commentary in The Simpsons. Do you seriously think that this show encourages people to aspire to the likes of Homer? And in any case, he is an engineer in that power plant, isn't he?
The Simpsons is a sad case b/c almost everyone misses the social commentary. Or they realize it's a satire of couch potatoes, but it doesn't make them feel bad, rather it makes them feel accepted, or at least acceptable. The show itself kind of drops the ball in this regard: Marge always comes back to Homer, no matter what he does (which begs the question, whom is more stupid?). Intelligent/geeky characters are ridiculed: the science guy, comic book guy, Lisa.
I love the show, but it only contributes to the negative perception Americans have of academics. Because, really, the show doesn't go out of its way to make political statements. An environmentalist is going to think it's pro-environmentalist b/c of Lisa, an anti-environmentalist is going to think it makes fun of environmentalists b/c of how everyone treats Lisa. The Simpsons rarely takes a stance, it allows the audience to make their own conclusions based on what characters they relate to and their own personal biases.
You may see the Simpsons as making fun of fat dumb slobs, but fat dumb slobs see it as a reinforcing their normalcy. This was most damaging with kids during my generation (growing up in the 90s). Bart was an icon of cool. No one wanted to be a Milhouse or Martin.
Re:Given the anti-intellectial cheerleading.... (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't have to convince me, but what I find extremely frustrating about this situation is that most would discard your anecdote b/c you mentioned European schools. That makes you a snobby socialist elite who thinks Europe is better than America. So many Americans seem to believe that as long as we delude ourselves into believing we're the best, we are.
Then there are those who send their children to private schools and don't believe they should have to be taxed to educate the poor. Those who send their children to public schools, but don't want to be taxed for it b/c they don't expect/encourage their children to seek higher education. And of course, the ever popular Rand belief in the individual. The schools are only as good as the individuals who attend them. If you fail to become educated it's your fault and no one else's.
With the rise of charter schools, I don't know what can save our education system other than a constitutional amendment federalizing it. As much as the Democratic party angers me, I feel obligated to support it because the opposing party is wholly opposed to education. We have two major political parties and one opposes education. That's just absurd. Ayn Rand and John Wayne/Ronald Reagan are piss-poor teachers. This idea that everyone has an equal opportunity is a lie, and it's a lie that's taught by our public schools.
No seriously though. (Score:2, Interesting)
An engineer is a guy who works with engines. The guy on the train works with train engines. Scotty works with starship engines. Myself, I work with difference engines and the like.
It's all well and good that you have certified, chartered engineers and the like putting together bridges and the like, but honestly, you don't have a god-given right to ownership of the title, so when someone uses it who just doesn't quite need that level of rigor for their website, chill out, mmmk? :)
Re:public policy is made by real economics (Score:5, Interesting)
Government is the one, that is causing the fall of the US economy
Sad that you ruin your comment with a largely baseless shot against your favorite boogeyman, because you then move on to make a valid point:
Science and engineering will not be promoted in a society that has no production
This is not the problem caused by gubmint. Countries where science and engineering are thriving, such as in Germany or Canada, have much larger government spending per capita and more social programs than the United States. The idea that government is the principal hurdle to overcome would only make sense if we had no data from outside the United States, but fortunately we have discovered that there places with similar economies in the lands beyond these shores.
I'd argue that the challenge is split between two factors: culture (as in, sports are cool, science and math are not) and economics (manufacturing goes elsewhere because of liberal trade policies and a strong dollar relative to other currencies). Again, you can't argue that the latter problem is caused by government just because that nicely fits into your preferred world view, or you would get stuck failing to explain why countries with government run healthcare (unlike ours, even under the recent reform) and sub-65 retirement ages have employment rates equal to or higher than ours, as well as more manufacturing.
Two modest solutions:
Re:Given the anti-intellectial cheerleading.... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know if either party really supports education in the ways that would matter. Huge overhauls are needed and it's not just about more money. The entire public education structure is broken. When you look at detailed budgets from school districts (many have them online) you see a lot of administrators, and in some cases an admin type position for every single teacher. What are all these people doing? Teaching students no longer seems to be the goal of most public school systems.
Then we have the teachers themselves. A HS teacher should have at least an MS in the field they teach and not in education. On the teaching side HS should be more like college and less like grade school (more on that later).
Which brings us to HS students. There is still way too much plain old babysitting in HS. I think this is the main advantage of private schools. They simply kick out kids who don't want to be there. Since the parents are also paying extra for private school, they are more apt to provide outside discipline. Outside discipline severely lacks in public school.
Now, to touch on one of your points, the individual absolutely does matter. You can't deny that there comes a point where an individual must make their own decision to become educated or not. Right now we mostly push this decision point to college in an almost sink or swim scenario, but I would want to push this decision to HS in a more gradual fashion.
Speaking of individual education, I don't know how old you are, but kids today have access to more information than any other time in the history of humanity. When I was in HS if I didn't understand something I had to wait until class the next day. With the internet I could have figured out the problem and learned about it in excruciating detail on my own time. The resources that are now available to the individual are staggering, so much so that some of the blame must fall to them when they are not educated.
Re:News flash (Score:4, Interesting)
Very nice comments. In short, science pays very poorly relative to the investment and expertise involved relative to many other professions.
As a microwave and RF design engineer I can fully agree with the sentiment that I would not recommend it as a career choice for anyone who isn't into it out of passion. Lots of work, modest pay, and little respect. MBA's can find work in almost any city. Scientists and engineers often must specialize to find a job, and often that means you can count the number of cities doing that work on one hand, often those are not the cheap ones to live in either (or in Texas, ick).
Foreign workers have been greatly masking the lack of scientists and engineers coming out of school, and also contributing to the problem. H1B visas keep wages down, which keep enrollment down. If more companies were truly hampered by the talent pool available in the US we'd have rising wages and rising enrollment. Not the whole problem for sure, but H1B's are masking the true extent of the problem.
Re:A lot of problems. (Score:5, Interesting)
1) An excessive and irrational fixation on "being yourself"
So, what are we supposed to be, great leader? Automatically submit to authority no matter what just so we can earn its favor and maybe some cash too?
The irony is that Americans end up conforming themselves to pre-defined pigeon holes anyway way worse that I've seen in other countries.
Of course, because in other countries, the kids are told what they're going to be, and if they don't measure up, they commit suicide working in some factory. See, I can stereotype too. Conformist attitudes (like yours for ex) are common to the species. Now there's some irony for you.
2) A fixation on pleasure.
As opposed to? A fixation on thankless wage-slave servitude? What would make anyone wake up and want to go to work in the morning except the threat of starvation? What a shitty life that would be. I don't do extreme sports or go anywhere near the club scene so I guess I'm safe from your wrath for now.. Talk about stereotyping. Sounds like you're watching too much TV. You must have too much free time, please get another job, lazy person.
3) A crap work ethic.
So anything less than a chinese slave-wage laborer is laziness? Your argument is a false dichotomy: there is middle ground between 'special little snowflake' and 'thankless cog.' work-life balance is what's supposed to separate free countries from the rest. Without that, there's nothing to live for. All that would be left is the details of how people are enslaved. In china, you're told what you're going to be by family/government, in the states, you get one chance to succeed at what you select, but if you fail, you're destitute for the rest of your life because the school debt has to be paid by a low wage alternative. Thanks to modern computers, more often than not, everyone (potential employers, law enforcement, friends) knows your personal history whether it is desired or not, and it's people with your attitude that usually want this information so they know what resumes to skip in the pile. Meanwhile, these same attitudinally-challenged douchebags bitch about how there are so many 'lazy' people out there who aren't working. Those who are 'lucky' enough to work for said employers end up being overworked, underpaid, and given zero respect. People aren't robots, but maybe there is something to the asian stereotypes about behaving that way. Sorry, but I have no desire to live that way.
But the fact is that by and large hard work is still valued. Parents instill the importance of education and hardwork in their kids. They engage them in activities they're convinced will ensure academic success. They aren't fixated on raising athletes, celebrities or kids who are socially popular. And people tend choose careers based on what will provide the best living, not what will make them happiest. And they work their asses off, putting in long hours on a regular basis.
Best living? What is best living without being content? making the most money? Is that all there is to life? Sadly, it's the semi-rich (six figure income) people who suffer from this the most: they have all that wealth yet have no time to enjoy it. They're ALWAYS working. Where's the success in that? No, I am not advocating that prima-donning kids is a good idea.
Too many Americans have an awful work ethic. They do just enough to get by but somehow think they're entitled to that job. Far too often I seen people rationalize that mentality by arguing that they deserve better, that they could do what management does. Maybe they can, but given that they can barely do their own jobs right, I wouldn't bet on it. There's too much self-righteousness going around.
Usually, it's management who can't do the job, so they hire people who can in the form of 'consultants' and *gasp* employees who know what they're doing! When the
Re:They once were (Score:4, Interesting)
In Canada a lot of software engineers have actual engineering degrees and have gone through all the actual engineer processes to get all the actual engineer trappings. Myself included.