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Earth Supercomputing Science

Living Earth Simulator Aims To Simulate Everything 241

Posted by timothy from the why-didn't-the-mice-think-of-that? dept.
H3xx writes "An international group of scientists is aiming to create a simulator — nicknamed The Living Earth Simulator — that will collect data from billions of sources and use it to replicate everything happening on Earth, from global weather patterns and the spread of diseases to international financial transactions or congestion on highways. The project aims to advance the scientific understanding of what is taking place on the planet, encapsulating the human actions that shape societies and the environmental forces that define the physical world. Perhaps this is Asimov's concept of Psychohistory come to fruition."
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Living Earth Simulator Aims To Simulate Everything More

Living Earth Simulator Aims To Simulate Everything

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  • Everything? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ferongr ( 1929434 )
    Somehow I doubt that all the computing machines in the word combined have the necessary processing power to computationally simulate *everything* that happens on the planet, even when if we try to limit the variables. So I'll just go ahead and assume the science team will compromise on a flawed model which produces equally flawed results.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Chrisq ( 894406 )

      Somehow I doubt that all the computing machines in the word combined have the necessary processing power to computationally simulate *everything* that happens on the planet, even when if we try to limit the variables. So I'll just go ahead and assume the science team will compromise on a flawed model which produces equally flawed results.

      The interesting bit comes when the simulation reaches the point that the computer simulation started. The computers then have to simulate themselves running the simulation.

      • The interesting bit comes when the simulation reaches the point that the computer simulation started. The computers then have to simulate themselves running the simulation.

        And this isn't just an academic point. If their predictions are of any value, they will be incorporated into major decisions made, and thus will be critical for the simulator to predict.

        • But if the system converges to a fixpoint, the infinite recursion can be avoided, right?

          Not that it seems likely to actually convege to a fixpoint. I'm just thinking aloud.

        • Cue Heat-Death of the planet in

          Five
          Four
          Three
          Two
          .

        • And this isn't just an academic point. If their predictions are of any value, they will be incorporated into major decisions made, and thus will be critical for the simulator to predict.

          Fortunately, the solution is (relatively) simple: when using simulations in decision making, they run what-if -scenarios. The Earth Simulator can simply save the current state in a checkpoint, then run these what-if -scenarios.

          The real problem is predicting the likely parameters used in these simulations. That, and all othe

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Chrisq ( 894406 )

            And this isn't just an academic point. If their predictions are of any value, they will be incorporated into major decisions made, and thus will be critical for the simulator to predict.

            Fortunately, the solution is (relatively) simple: when using simulations in decision making, they run what-if -scenarios. The Earth Simulator can simply save the current state in a checkpoint, then run these what-if -scenarios.

            Good luck with that. So far attempts to model the effect of computerised trading on the stock market (much simpler than everything) have failed miserably. Also you have the chaos problem, where small changes can cause divergent and difficult to predict behaviour. What would have happened if we had a clear unambiguous warning of the sub-prime crisis a year before it happened? Would it have happened much earlier, been avoided, or just mitigated to an extent? What if the model included a prediction of what eff

    • Somehow I doubt that all the computing machines in the word combined have the necessary processing power to computationally simulate *everything* that happens on the planet, even when if we try to limit the variables. So I'll just go ahead and assume the science team will compromise on a flawed model which produces equally flawed results.

      Every model is flawed according to that definition.

      They'll try to simplify the earth, and model it... and hopefully it can predict future events with a certain degree of certainty.

      I agree that the word "everything" is too strong... but it's just sad and silly that the entire Slashdot forum attacks these guys because they said this.

      There is some value in this exercise. Just like you can model an ant colony, you can probably model the world. We're all awfully predictable anyway.

    • Re:Everything? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dbIII ( 701233 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @08:34AM (#34697604)
      It entirely depends on what level of detail you want as to whether the model is valid or not. Consider the attached image of myself as an example - it's highly accurate for that level of detail :)
    • A "model of everything" is a very interesting problem. Although I agree their results will be flawed, I disagree with you implication that it's useless research. These guys have no choice but to develop a flawed simulation, but if these guys do good work someone else might come along later and realize they have the means to reduce or eliminate some of those flaws. Making a useful (although still flawed) simulation probably can't be done all at once, so if these guys make the first stepping stone it could pr

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by WetCat ( 558132 )

        At least
        - it'll be a lot of fun to just stare and browse this thing, zooming to your own areas. This can make a lot of money on advertisiments!
        - Some portions of this can be used to improve forecasts, weather forecasts.

  • I'm guessing they end up simply computing Pi.

  • Name it Second Life (Score:3)

    by lul_wat ( 1623489 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @05:33AM (#34696714)
    or would it be Third Life? Maybe it'll name itself.
  • They could save themselves a lot of work and just get Dwarf Fortress...

  • I am not sure if having everything in a single model is a good approach. Certainly seems too computationally expensive.

    I would much prefer if people start looking into socio-economic modeling. We now have pretty good climatic models, and this started in the 50s, when there computers had almost no power. Now we have such power, and we could feasibly simulate social (i and economic behavior of whole country on a home PC.

    We could start like this: Each person in simulation would have possible actions (these wo

    • It's just another model at another scale.

      Sometimes you need alrge scale models, and sometimes you need small scale models.

      This would be nothing more than a very large scale model, just not in a spatial sense, as the sub-models in use there are already on a globale scale.

      Yes, it's computationally expensive, but if you have the hardware to throw at it - just do it.

  • Just buy a copy of sims 3 and be done with it.

  • I hope... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Mr Z ( 6791 )
    I hope they've put some deep thought into this....
  • Name it Matrix.

  • Yes but is the simulator written in BASIC?

  • Weather is a chaotic system, and weather affects living things in very significant ways. I'm sure there are plenty of other chaotic non-linearities in what they're trying to simulate as well.

    Doesn't such instability doom any world simulator to crappy fidelity?

    • Weather simulations are very useful. Doesn't that doom this effort to producing a very useful result?

      • Weather simulations are very useful. Doesn't that doom this effort to producing a very useful result?

        Not necessarily. My basic concern is that weather is chaotic, and probably something dependent upon the weather has its own intrinisic chaotic properties even if the speicied weather were accurately forecast. So I'm thinking that the overall simulated system would have a composite degree of chaos much greater than that of just the global weather system.

  • En Attendant Laplace! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Crypto Gnome ( 651401 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @06:39AM (#34696990) Homepage Journal
    Clearly this is an attempt to invoke Laplace's Demon [wikipedia.org].
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • "I have personal (philosophical) reservations about this concept, for it negates the concept of "free will".

        In other words, because I don't want it to be like that, it can't be like that.

        Personally, I've always thought that the idea of "free will" is in the ropes. Even if there is no such thing as predictability, how can we actually change the physical processes that happen in our brain, if we ourselves are a product of them?

        That does not actually mean that we should change because of that, since maybe the

  • Apologies to both Arthur and Douglass (Score:3)

    by Crypto Gnome ( 651401 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @06:41AM (#34697002) Homepage Journal
    Any sufficiently accurate simulation is indistinguishable from reality. Corollary: Any simulation distinguishable from reality is insufficiently accurate. Phil P
    • Indeed this is quite right. I'm reminded of something I read recently: "according to the laws of physics, a feather and a cannon ball should fall with the same velocity. In reality, my feather was blown into a tree",

      A certain section of scientists seem to lack the necessary insight into what they're actually doing when they develop a model on a computer. It's a conceptual representation, not a realistic simulation and it can only model those concepts that are well understood.

      If economic models fai

      • I agree with you in general about the limits of simulations and even intelligence itself.

        Still, simulations can be used to:
        * predict (you are right, they often fail for reasons of chaos theory and limited accuracy or missing aspects);
        * understand (where you play what ifs to see the consequences of your assumptions);
        * to gain insight (something other than understanding of details, where you gain a sense of the gestalt, a feeling, or some new summarizing key idea, like I say with my sig about the irony of the

        • Simulations/models can be useful as an aid to understanding, but in reality what happens is model outputs are given the term "prediction" in press-releases. When economists do it, we all raise an eyebrow. When scientists do it, for some reason people think it's come from the Oracle at Delphi.

          In my view this story is a good example of the arrogance and stupidity embedded in our scientific establishment. Moreover, I have no doubt that the control climate models have given activist scientists over the pol
  • How do we know we are not already living in one of these things? If so, this seems a bit redundant . . .

  • International? European! (Score:3)

    by andersh ( 229403 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @07:54AM (#34697358)

    The simulation is a European project, part of the FuturICT-programme, a part of the European Union research framework programme [europa.eu].

    It intends to unify hundreds of the best scientists in Europe in a 10 year 1 billion EUR program to explore social life on earth and everything it relates to. The FuturICT flagship will produce historic breakthroughs and provide powerful new ways to manage challenges that make the modern world so difficult to predict, including the financial crisis.

    The FuturICT Knowledge Accelerator is a previously unseen multidisciplinary international scientific endeavour with focus on techno-socio-economic-environmental systems. The three main achievements of the FuturICT flagship will be the establishment of
    - a Living Earth Simulator (global-scale simulation of techno-socio-economic systems),
    - Crisis Observatories (for financial instabilities, scarcity of resources, emerging risks and conflicts, epidemics, etc.), and
    - an Innovation Accelerator (identifying innovations early on, evaluating them across disciplines and supporting co-creation projects between different scientific disciplines, business, and governance).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by khallow ( 566160 )

      The FuturICT flagship will produce historic breakthroughs and provide powerful new ways to manage challenges that make the modern world so difficult to predict, including the financial crisis.

      The only thing difficult about the financial crisis was predicting when it would occur. That it would occur was obvious from the levels of risk that the financial and real estate institutions were taking on.

      • "The only thing difficult about the financial crisis was predicting when it would occur. That it would occur was obvious from the levels of risk that the financial and real estate institutions were taking on."

        The main problem with the financial crisis is getting things to change while so many people have short term, highly personal reasons to let it exists. This is such a big problem that most people seem to address this issue by putting their hands on their ears and shout "LALALALALA" on top of their voice

  • Are our super computers even capable of doing the calculations for, well, everything on earth?

    I'm going to say, no.

    You'd have to do too many shortcuts to get accurate results, let alone we don't know how most the crap works in this world anyways. Sure, we know some, and learn more, but enough to simulate it?

    I'm going to put this up there with Duke Nuke'm coming out before 2010 is over.

  • Starting from such farcical first assumptions, its hard to believe this stupid idea is going to get funding, much less even conceivably work.

    Look: every "sim" rationalizes inputs, creates a facade of activity that looks like real life, so as to produce reasonably realistic outputs. The point of modeling is to EXCLUDE as many variables as you can, to make what you're studying as simple as possible, to try to draw it down to its essentials.

    To build a true sim, you have to start at the "lowest protocols" that

    • Clearly then we should just stop the similarly farcical expenditures on weather modelling.

      • Reading comprehension -1.
        Clearly modelling is a useful technique.
        Weather modelling - which clearly needs significant work - is a laudable goal.
        Tectonic modelling, a laudable goal.
        Economic, social, etc. modelling, all worthy efforts to analyse very difficult systems.

        To claim it's imperative that we immediately start to build systems that will draw conclusions from yet-to-be-invented systems built on top of these models that are decades from completion themselves? Histrionic grant-fishing.

  • So does Civ V. So does my globe. Anything can be used to simulate anything else poorly. Nothing can be used to simulate everything else exactly. The quality of the output will be determined by the areas they focus, the choices made when they write the algorithms and the data they get to put into the system. 'We're simulating the whole world and how it interacts' provides little information about the quality or usefulness of the simulation.

  • Not even close.
    Psychohistory had nothing to do with simulating things on a computer. It was a mathematical construct to predict human behavior in groups, in the same way that you can predict what a large enough group of atoms will do even if you can't know what any one atom will be doing at any given time.

    This is more like a Matrix 0.001 alpha. I imagine their Neo being a little piece of CoreWars code.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by amorsen ( 7485 )

      Then Lorenz and Mandelbrot appeared on the scene, and the whole premise of psychohistory went out the window.

  • I want a simcity like game with a custom road system Simcity 4 + plugs ins is nice but old and buggy.

    Citys xl lacked the custom road systems and the highway interchanges are to big and just have roundabouts.

  • Yes Mr. Smith, it started in 2010.

  • In a related news story, a group of scientists have formed a company named Magrathea with long term plans of building a massive planet which will be capable of fostering the design and manufacture of custom luxury planets.

  • Uncertainty Reigns (Score:4, Insightful)

    by thethibs ( 882667 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2010 @10:38AM (#34698858) Homepage

    The big problem with this is that most of the world's and humanity's interesting systems are chaotic. You may get lucky and find an attractor or two.

    In any case, simulation can show you plausible futures, but they'll have no predictive value. The outputs will be little more than cybernetic speculative fiction.

    On the other hand, there's no explaining chaos to a politician, or to a scientist who believes that more data and higher resolution are all that's needed to clear up the confusion; the grant money will keep flowing.

    • Chaotic systems are much more usefully simulated than non-chaotic systems. Non-chaotic systems can be usefully described with pen and paper, while chaotic ones require substantial computation in order to usefully simulate. A good example is weather modelling. Another is biological modelling. Another is lattice QCD. Another is fluid dynamics. All of these models of chaotic systems produce highly useful results which cannot be obtained without substantial numerical computation. It seems your argument ach

  • ... we are nothing more than a simulation created by some super alien CS student as a senior project this should be interesting. It also has implications as to whether our universe will die slowly due to entropy buildup (a memory leak in the simulation) or in some cataclysmic, world ending event (when the simulation is ported to VB.Net and crashes).

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Does the Living Earth Simulator contain the Living Earth Simulator?

      Yes, you get recursion, until a stack overflow occurs.

  • if we are already living in a simulation, I hope the one being built from this collective of intelligence, will correct the flaws :)
  • Can it lead me to a major lottery win? If not, how useful is it to me?

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