No Gap Found In Math Abilities of Girls, Boys 701
sciencehabit writes "For anyone who still believes that boys are better at math than girls, a massive new study published today in Science shows there's no difference. 'Among students with the highest test scores, the team did find that white boys outnumbered white girls by about two to one. Among Asians, however, that result was nearly reversed. Hyde says that suggests that cultural and social factors, not gender alone, influence how well students perform on tests.' But the researchers do note a disturbing trend towards omitting harder kinds of math questions from standardized tests."
Re:What? (Score:5, Interesting)
It also says boys do 7% better in the maths portion of the SATs, but writes it off as a statistical illusion due to more girls doing the test (they don't know how averages work?).
I bet it wouldn't be a statistical illusion if the girls where the ones getting 7% better.
A girl answered a math problem? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been sort of disheartened by the quality of math instruction in the US lately, and it's got nothing to do with gender. It certainly seems like newer students lack a lot of the critical math skills that were drilled into my head years ago, based on my limited exposure to new people entering the job market/taking the occasional class here and there.
No surprise (Score:5, Interesting)
Girls have more fear of math. They are not worse at it. The typical observation is that girls do not dare try it, while boys perform badly and do not mind. This is a cultural problem, not a capability issue. Same is, incidentially, true ofr technology: Girls are afraid to touch it, while boys break it.
Re:Real Story is (Score:4, Interesting)
How does correcting an unfair imbalance equal hamstringing? More attention was paid to boys, and they did better. Now that teachers are giving more time to girls and teaching in a more gender neutral fashion, the scores are becoming more equal. If I give you something that I don't give to others, and then I take some of that away from you in order to more fairly distribute it, I am not hamstringing you.
Its sad, so many people have gotten used to having unfair advantage, they consider it their birthright. White males tend to be the worst whiners.
Re:Can it be time? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Can it be time? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this (Score:1, Interesting)
Or that there are genetic differences between white and asian people.
Re:Real Story is (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm sure if they spent all their time getting offended they wouldn't have done nearly as well.
Agreed. (Score:4, Interesting)
The difference is in motivation - they simply are not interested.
After all, I am sure that all of us could spend hours doing many of the things and jobs that women find so fascinating (fashion, cooking, PA, advertising, sales etc) perfectly competantly - but its true that we simply do not want to.
What are they measuring? (Score:4, Interesting)
Judging high-end mathematics aptitude by looking at low-end mathematics test scores is no way to run a study. Anyone can learn mathematics well enough to get a decent score on the SAT; it would be like using rudimentary literacy as the measure of Pulitzer prize potential. What next, flipping burgers at McDonald's will make you the next Iron Chef? No one seriously doubted that males and females learn mathematics with similar aptitude in any case, so this seems to be a combination strawman and low-rent dig at Larry Summers that misses the point more than anything.
The controversy, which is not very controversial, has to do with differences in genders to directly manipulate certain kinds of complex system models mentally. While it tends to manifest in some areas of applied mathematics, it does not reflect any ability to learn mathematics per se.
Re:What? (Score:3, Interesting)
What has happened is that a culture has formed among guys who don't do great in school that going to college is a waste of time. Women in general have less of this, and are more likely to try for college regardless of previous academic success. As a result, fewer guys take the SATs, but those that do represent tend to come from stronger academic backgrounds, raising the average for guys.
Useless studies (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:A root cause you'll never hear about (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyone who has dated a geek girl knows that misogyny is a drop in the bucket compared to the problem that girls geared toward science and math face from other girls who will be absolutely VICIOUS in putting them down.
All that proves is that girls have tribal behavior just like boys, and will ostracize anyone who is different. That says nothing about the *average* intrinsic abilities of men and women.
Personally, I don't understand why there is even any debate that men and women are different. Somehow we're supposed to believe that men and women are physically different in nearly every way -- except for the brain. Evolution clearly decided to make the brains identical for political reasons.
People need to lighten up. We're talking about averages. Women can have traditionally male traits, and men can have traditionally female traits.
On the other hand, consider this, just to introduce some controversy (:D) -- there is no case where the world's best female athlete can beat the world's best male athlete at any physical sport. Could this truth also apply to certain narrow cases of neurology? [either male or female].
Re:Real Story is (Score:5, Interesting)
As mentioned on 60 minutes [cbsnews.com], "Girls outperform boys in elementary school, middle school, high school, and college, and graduate school".
Does that sound very equal to you?
It goes somewhat against the grain of this report, but what this study seems to indicate is that, relative to their performance in other subject areas, girls aren't doing well in math.
Re:The Important Question.... (Score:1, Interesting)
TActualFA [sciencemag.org] from Science was authored by 5 women.
Re:Real Story is (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was in public school in the 80s and 90s none of my math teachers were men. Typically, a quarter to a half of our grade would be 'homework checks' or art posters where you draw a picture of issac newton and an apple. I was never in a class that you could even pass by just being able to understand and perform math.
So in my day girls had huge advantages in math classrooms, with sypathetic teachers and rote learning and grades based on following the rules -- and guys still did better in math. I can only image how hostile the classrooms are now. Judging by your id, back in your day maybe there was a bias for men but that has long since been overcorrected for.
Not Surprised (Score:1, Interesting)
I am not surprised by these results at all. The school system has been trying for years to achieve parity in education between boys and girls. And that parity was not attained by teaching progressively harder subjects, but by requiring easier tests. Additionally, differences between men and women are much more likely to appear at the extreme ends of their fields. That's why we have men's and women's sports, for example. I would think it is very likely that men are better than women in some academic fields and women are better than men at others, since the sexes have different hormones and brains that are not the same.
This is not to say that there will not be women or men in those fields who are just as good, they just won't show up in equal proportions.
SEX DIFFERENCES IN MATHEMATICAL APTITUDE (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Can it be time? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's real hard to become interested in something that people tell you you're not supposed to be interested in every time you ask a question about it during early childhood. Hence why I never learned how to dress well until I was 20.
Reading comprehension anyone? (Score:1, Interesting)
Gee, here is what the article says:
"Nearly 20 years ago, a large-scale study ... did suggest that boys were better at solving more complex problems by the time they got to high school."
[Now, this study:] "The study's most disturbing finding, the authors say, is that neither boys nor girls get many tough math questions on state tests..."
Of course there is no longer any differences between boys and girls, because the part that makes a difference has been taken away. Judging from the comments, reading comprehension is certainly not strong among the readers here.
Now to the people who blame everything on discrimination, and boys being in a privileged class. Today's classrooms are run predominately by female administrators, more than 90% of the teachers are female, curricula are tailored to girls (*). Even math problems are increasingly word based rather than equation based. And some call this merely correcting the disparities between boys and girls. Einstein was right when he said stupidity has no limits, such is this generation we are living in.
(*) For example, an earlier study points out that reading classes predominately use fictions as course material, something that girls prefer far more than boys, who on the other hand, prefer something that is real and tangible, such as history.
Re:Can it be time? (Score:4, Interesting)
The hypothesis is that Asperger's syndrome and the autistic spectrum is just the extreme case of the male brain (literally: testosterone poisoning).
I have asperger's and so do three of my children. My daughter (with asd) is entering the 9th grade this year effectively three years ahead of where I was in math. It's frightening. She skipped the 3rd grade and looks younger than she is. She looks like a 12 year old entering high school. I've been preparing her for a couple years for the time (about now) when I won't be able to help her with math anymore. It's really shocking to me how smart she is.
I think the human race, at least in the developed world, is selecting for intelligence. Intelligent people have better health care and better resources making them more likely to reproduce and afford more children. I think this natural selection mixed with how our environment has changed is responsible for the increased incidence in asd.
We need to think long and hard about how we educate children and what we consider normal. The one-size-fits-all public education system is the worst possible thing you can do to an asd kid.
Re:A root cause you'll never hear about (Score:5, Interesting)
I ahve an 8 year old daughter, and I see this behaviour in girls a little older then here.
I ahve been talking to a lot of my female coworkrs about girl behaviour.
So far I ahve this conclusion:
Girls are fucking mean.
They'll intentionally talk smack about some when they know they are listening but not part of the conversation.
what the hell is that about?
Girls will build someone up just to bring them down. Seriously, WTF?
As a guy we said what was on our mind and sometimes tossed some fists around. The it was done.
None of this planning to revenge some slight for days.
Re:I, for one (Score:5, Interesting)
Never in my life have I encountered a serious situation where the system favors girls or women over me. Not in school, not in business, not in anything beyond women getting to order first in restaurants. While girls have very slightly higher average scores in grade school and a slight majority when it comes to overall university attendance, the "advantage" is both very small and in my opinion caused by the fact that most girl-focused subcultures are more compatible with academics than are those focused around boys.
I think that any blame in this imbalance has to fall on anti-intellectualism among boys.
Yeah, real equal. Women average better than men in most school subjects and more women than men go to university. There are loads of female dominated jobs and academic subjects, yet no affirmative action for us. When women want to work a 25 hr week in a career that's "rewarding", the feminists complain that women average lower salaries.
That's feminism: When men are doing better at something "Men and women are equals, the men must have had an unfair advantage!". When women are doing better, "Men and women have different brains and are good at different things!"
When will the geek community use their intelligence and realise when that they're being shafted?
Until puberty (Score:5, Interesting)
Back when I was in 5th grade, there were 2-3 girls in my computer class that were much better programmers than I. Much better.
Fast forward to today. They're housewives. I'm a Software Engineer. It's sad and disheartening. I wish there were more women in my field.
It's like puberty fried their brains completely. If it weren't for that I could easily envision them being much better at what I do than I am. But something happened in the intervening years. The only thing that makes any sense is puberty. Until that point the differences between boys and girls are superficial, but prior to that they were much better at it than I was.
I'd like to see the results of this experiment re-run on the same people when they're in their late 20s or early thirties.
Re:Can it be time? (Score:5, Interesting)
You, sir, are outcho goddammed mind.
The intelligent people in developed countries are being outbred [wikipedia.org] by the people of lower intelligence [wikipedia.org].
I know it is not science, but sheesh, haven't you seen Idiocracy [imdb.com]?
What I've seen (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I've seen reported on the study, the authors were looking at averages being the same. That's what I've seen over the years as well. What I've also seen is the standard deviation for boys is greater. Boys are usually at the bottom, the middle and the top with the girls usually clustered in the center. Admittedly, my sample sizes are small and I'm looking at a self-selected group.
I've coached a Middle school math program called Mathcounts [mathcounts.org] for the past 12 years. I coach in a Mathcounts region just south of the Silicon Valley. The program is organized around annual competitions that are structured as a hierarchy: school/region/state/national. Winning at one step gains a student, or group of students, access to the next level of competition. We've managed to do well at the regional competition and have sent at least one kid to the state level 10 out of 12 years.
At the regional level, gender has never been an issue - we send as many girls as boys to state. At the state level, gender is most definitely an issue as the top 16 kids out of the 150 or so regional winners are overwhelmingly boys. You'll usually see a 2 to 1 ratio [mathcounts-ca.org] and sometimes the boy's will sweep the top 16. In the sample I cited, I counted 6 girls out the top 38 contestants. Remember, I'm talking about the top 1% of middle school children in California. Most of the top kids are Asian which means anybody from India to Japan.
A key difference I've seen between my Asian and non-Asian students has been their parents. If I have a strong Asian student, strong odds are that the kid's parents are first-generation immigrants. First-generation parents tend to emphasize excellence far more than parents who have been here awhile.
Re:Can it be time? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I, for one (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:What? (Score:1, Interesting)
The really ironic thing is that gender is a culturally defined construct according to sociologists. So the logic is mostly circular.
NEW BUSINESS PLAN (Score:3, Interesting)
2. Hire ONLY FEMALES
3. Give them a 5% increase in standard industry wage
4. Undercut all those FOOLS that have male employees
5. Skip step 6
6. ??????????
7. PROFIT!
Re:Can it be time? (Score:3, Interesting)
Can you point to just one example of someone telling women they're "not supposed to be interested" in IT?
As president of my local ACM student chapter, I have made it policy that our members must make all possible attempts to proselytize girls into geekdom any chance they get. One of our highest priorities for the coming year is to develop a relationship and alliance with the Asian American Student Association on campus which just so happens to consist primarily of girls. Do we get double bonus points?
Re:I, for one (Score:3, Interesting)
None on hand (and I'm certainly not going to waste time trying to dig it up for a Slashdot discussion, since it's usually obfuscated).
If you can, find some of these "studies" that include some raw data, or more than just a soundbite conclusion. Look through said data and be sure to normalise for factors such as shorter working hours. You will find that, for the same job, women are paid the same salary.
(After all, if women really did earn significantly less, employers would be falling over themselves to save money on staffing costs by employing them.)