The Car That Makes Its Own Fuel 534
Spy der Mann writes "A unique system that can produce Hydrogen inside a car using common metals such as Magnesium and Aluminum was recently developed by an Israeli company. The system solves all of the obstacles associated with the manufacturing, transporting and storing of hydrogen to be used in cars. And it's completely emission free."
FP BS! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Insightful)
...other than the fact that the fuel coil will be 3 TIMES THE WEIGHT OF A CONVENTIONAL PETROL TANK.
Re:FP BS! (Score:4, Informative)
They did figure out how to get hydrogen using solar energy [80.70.129.162], but that was announced back in April.
Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:4, Interesting)
a) The metal industry will need energy to make the wires. Al, for one, uses a hell of a lot of electrical energy to be produced (not sure about Mg). Where does the electrical energy come from? Some more nuclear power plants? Thank you. (1)
b) What about the infrastructure needed to carry the wires along? More trucks on the road? Powered by what? In Europe: Thank you.
c) How much water is needed to make enough Hydrogen to get the power of a conventional car? Has this amount of water been added to the additional weight and size of the car? Even if the weight of the coil does not affect the performance of the car, the coil and the water will add to the weight, and hence reduce the overall efficiency.
d) What is the efficiency behind the in-car process?
e) What overall ecologic efficiency can be reached, as compared to other technologies?
I admit the metal industry and the large energy corporations may not be that interested in answering all these questions. The photo of the car on the web site suggests this technology is ready to go. IMHO it has a LONG way to go.
OK, let's move on.
(1) And an excellent idea for the developing countries as well, where the track record of safe nuclear power plants is that long.
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:5, Interesting)
a) yes Al takes a lot of energy to make. we would call this a "high energy density" material. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. It means we can put more energy in a smaller (or lighter) package. Gasoline is not incredbily energy-dense. One way or another you have to put energy into the process of creating fuel. The only difference with petrolium is the energy has already been put in, and it just needs to be processed for us to use easily. Since you have to put energy into it, a source like nuclear power actually makes a great deal of sense. It's highly renewable, low pollution, and provides a very large amount of energy.
b) um, the trucks can be wire-powered too, y'know. It'd be kinda silly for them NOT to be wire powered.
c) Water will add to the weight, yes. I don't know all the physics, but in general I know you can get a LOT of hydrogen out of a little water. A system like this may require occasional refilling. On a guess I'd say you might need to tank up on water every 100 miles or so. The water is after all the source of your hydrogen, the wire is the source of the energy. This also greatly increases the safety of the vehicle, because there is no need for a very high pressure hydrogen tank, and the associated hazards of refilling and transportation of hydrogen.
d) As for efficiency, there is always heat. Since the system uses heat to crack the water, it's not going to be too far off in efficiency from a regular car. It actually may be less efficient, since there are two heat losses - you have to burn the hydrogen after all, and that too releases heat. This may not matter as much since the fuel source is more easily renewable.
e) it's an interesting system when you examine it. You are using a wire to generate heat, to turn water into oxygen and hydrogen, and then BURNING that hydrogen (presumably with the oxygen you make, to improve efficiency) and that actually gets you... water. I suppose technically it may not need water refils because of this. But then if you look at that, you've come full circle. The only addition has been the wire being turned into physical motion. It's too bad they need to go through the water-to hydrogen-to water conversion but it provides a buffer that allows for fast accelleration etc. Considering the zero emissions and loss of reliance on fossil fuels, it sounds like a very good move, environmentally.
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:3, Funny)
Roughly 2 atoms per molecule would be my guess.
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:3, Funny)
Price of gas - $2.50 a gallon.
Price of water - $1.50 for 20oz.
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:5, Funny)
Price of gas - $2.50 a gallon.
Price of water - $1.50 for 20oz.
Unless you're driving a racing version with high compression, you don't have to run on premium water like Evian for top performance.
You can fill on regular tap water for a couple of cents per cubic metre. Or, if you're one of those environmentalist, you get an engine conversion done and you can get your water from sewage pipes and septic tanks for free!
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:4, Informative)
Not really. 1 gram of water will yield
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:3, Informative)
Lithium you'd need 7g Li/1g H2, beryllium(toxic) 9g Be/2g H2, and Boron 11g B/3g H2(though spontaneous reactivy is worse, so there is a reason why
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:5, Informative)
It would be a good thing if it were true. The massive ammounts of energy used to reduce bauxite are mostly lost as waste heat. If they were actually stored in the material, this might be an efficient system to transport energy.
Water will add to the weight, yes. I don't know all the physics, but in general I know you can get a LOT of hydrogen out of a little water.
Well, I do know the physics involved. No, you can't get "a LOT" of hydrogen from water. Water is only 2/18 hydrogen by weight. So you only get 111 grams H2 per kg H2O. That's elementary chemistry. The heat of combustion of H2 is about 141 MJ/kg (IIRC), and the heat of combustion of gasoline is about 44 MJ/kg. But if you're only getting 11% H2 from water, then the effective heat of combustion from the products of electrolysis is about 16 MJ/kg of H2O. Therefore, even neglecting the weight of the metal, this is not a very energy dense system as you claim it to be.
There so much wrong with the rest of your post, but I don't feel like addressing it. The FP had it right: this is bullshit.
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, this is true. Thermite is a substance that burns at around 5000 degrees, and is capable of welding metal plates and destroying metal machinery. I've always wanted to see someone put a thermite grenade on top of one of those really big soda machines and watch it explode.
Thermite is a mixture of aluminum shavings and rust. The heat is produced by the oxidation of the aluminum as oxygen is transfered from the rust. There's a car in the St. Louis Science Center that is entirely powered from that reaction. It's an experimental thing and I've never heard about why it wasn't practical, but I know it works.
Haraldm is, in fact, correct in that they're just moving the energy production back to a central power plant, and the efficiency of the process is in question. Until they figure out how to turn bauxite into aluminum in solar furnaces, I'd say that this solution is not terribly effectual.
In response to the "where do they get the water?" comment, distilleries figured out how to condense fluids from gasses centuries ago. Properly designed heat exchangers and condenser coils should notably limit the loss in that direction.
All things said and done, either this isn't a complete idea, or they're hiding the rest of it because they think they're clever. It's certainly not a NEW idea, it's just feeding off the hype of "hydrogen fuel!", and propogating because people don't understand the thermodynamics of the process.
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:5, Informative)
That car is actually a Ford concept car it is the Shelby GR-1 [conceptcarz.com].
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:3)
Re:Perpetuum mobile or what? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Interesting)
Anybody want to venture the supply problems of supplying about 100 Lbs of magnesium wire per commuter per week. The article seems to claim it won't cost more than petrol. Petrol is delivered by pipeline or tanker. Pumps and hoses won't deliver the wire. In reality, is there enough of this metal to support a fuel infrastructure?
Re:FP BS!, Al smelters? Not in the USA (Score:3, Interesting)
I doubt there is enough smelter capacity to supply beer can and airplane part requirements without recycling the metal that is in the system.
BTW: Beer can metal is a top grade alloy. Last
Re:FP BS!, Al smelters? Not in the USA (Score:4, Informative)
I have more information on that.
The plant operated with reduced energy costs. They bought excess BPA power wholsale, not retail. This included shutting down operation when surplus power (spring runoff from hydro power, low residentual heating demand, not yet heavy AC season in LA) was in short supply. Even with cheap energy costs, the cost of operation finaly failed to make economic sense.
Sounds like a great way to save energy, reduce alumina to aluminum and then reduce aluminum to alumina.
If anyone thinks aluminum and other metal prices are not related to the rising price of energy, they have not been paying attention.
When gas prices then electric prices go up, so does smeltering costs.. This is not a breakthrough in high fuel prices.
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Informative)
Or am I wrong?
Re:FP BS! (Score:3, Funny)
Physorg Link (Score:4, Informative)
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Informative)
It has emissions and of a very ugly kind. True, Al will happily give hydrogen when whacked with a hyperheated steam. It is the well known firefighters rule of "never try to extinguish burning Aluminium with water".
There is a problem though - under controlled condition the reaction results in colloidal Alx(OH)y/AlxOy suspension which is a right mess. Its mechanical properies are all over the place so you cannot filter it, separate it or deal with it by any reasonable means. So the idea is a BS for most applications.
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Interesting)
In fact, I think that lithium aluminum hydride (and various other light metal hydrides) has been mentioned as a possible hydrogen storage source. I don't know anything more about it than it's been mentioned (specifically, how they plan to regenerate it, LAH isn't exactly cheap)
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Informative)
And the First Post that didn't deserve to be moderated OT too.
The car, contrary to the Slashdot editor letting this one through when they shouldn't have in its posted form does not make its own fuel. It runs on water and aluminum or magnesium.
Now if it mined those elements and refined them in the process and still had a postive energy output then yes, the article summary would have been accurate.
It doesn't. It's not!
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Informative)
Using metals as a fuel source is the cover article on the current New Scientist:
Metal: The fuel of the future
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825221.10
Re:FP BS! (Score:5, Informative)
The main bullshit of the article boils down to this sentence:
The fuel, i.e. aluminium or magnesium, is neither inexpensive nor abundant, in fact Al and Mg are completely nonexistant in nature in their unbound form. Since pure Al and Mg are so reactive, they don't last long in nature, and must be produced by electrolysis in liquid-metal, power-intensive plants. There's a reason why bike frames in aluminium are more expensive than ones in steel.
Since the article says also that the car "... needs a metal coil three-times heavier than an equivalent petrol tank.", one wonders why in the world we should not then use simple pressurised hydrogen-gas tanks then.
Actually its an old technique (Score:5, Informative)
That counts as irony.
Re:FP BS! (Score:4, Insightful)
Take some of that aluminum and magnesium and make bicycles out of it. Paint stripes on all the regular city thoroughfares reserving space for bike lanes. Give people health insurance discounts for riding bikes, and give them secure, covered spots to park at work. Let them carry bikes on public buses and trains.
Speaking of buses and trains, put hundreds of billions of $ into public transportation and solar power panels on all public buildings rather than defending some oil fields in some miserable patch of desert in the middle east.
I see these online discussions about how many years it would take to make a hybrid's cost pay for itself. I suggest taxing the heck out of gas guzzler cars and *make* the fuel efficient versions worthwhile. It's crazy that you have to pay a $3000 surcharge for a hybrid electric vehicle, for example, over a regular gas guzzler that is literally funding war and terrorism in the Middle East.
Re:FP BS! (Score:3, Insightful)
While that sounds good...it is virtually impossible given the vast amounts of land we cover here and the different weather conditions and terrains. Take for instance where I'm at right now. My house in NOLA is still uninhabitable...I'm living with friends just outside New Orleans. I commute every day to my job, temporarily moved to Baton Rouge. They'r
Re:FP BS! (Score:3, Informative)
People don't like being wet or cold and no other solution matches mobile shelter from door to door as well as the private automobile. Until that changes or the US becomes as densely populated as Europe the culture centered around the automobile here is not going to change. If Oil runs out another way will be found.
Back to the topic at hand.... what energy is bei
Big deal. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Big deal. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, but... (Score:2, Funny)
Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just an example of moving the pollution elsewhere. The metal must be refined, at great cost to the environment. Then it is oxidized in a "pollution free" car.
/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:5, Informative)
The issue here is that the process works, but it is very expensive in energy, because the metal oxide must be refined.
Anyhow, there is nothing new in the referenced article. The fact that it is possible to produce hydrogen using reactive metals has been known since perhaps 1860, maybe much earlier.
If I remember correctly, there was an explosion in Antoine Laurent Lavoisier's [k12.ca.us] lab caused by hydrogen released by heating with metal. Mr. Lavoisier died in 1794, and not from the explosion.
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:4, Interesting)
This is the very kind of article that belongs on Slashdot. The whole point of posting something like this is having it taken apart and scrutinized by the Slashdot community.
How much fun would an article be was bullet proof? There would be nothing to say about it.
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:2)
So that explains why we never see stories about Kevlar jackets.
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:2)
Well, imagine a middle school student with 3/4 lb of magnesium and a lot of time on his hands.
Aside from the obvious hobby of burning it, I also derived a number of methods of hydrogen generation from it. The simplest (and slowest) was to soak it in water. However, this takes a long time. I assume that the aluminum is used to c
Spike in Israeli companies? (Score:3, Interesting)
what kind? (Score:3, Interesting)
It is? Which metal oxide?
temperature? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:5, Informative)
Man, are you stupid. The entire freaking Sun is filled with metal oxide.
Sorry, there ought to be a Godwin's law about calling people stupid.
My grandmother was G. R. Caughlin (as in Fowler, Caughlin, and Zimmerman-- the authors of s seminal paper on the generation of elements in stars). Some of their figures have been refined by others but the general theories seem to hold. So while I may not be an astrophysicist, I am not entirely unfamiliar with the field either.
Part of the problem with your theory is that metal oxides don't exist in the sun in any way you might think. First, stars are powered by fusion of hydrogen and helium (in terms of alpha capture-- you have the possibility of three helium nuclei fusing to form Carbon12). C12 can then capture another alpha particle (helium nucleus) to form Oxygen. Although I don't really understand the rest of the physics, I gather that many of the heavier elements are generated in the stars through other processes as the star ages. So for the sun, I would expect most of the sun to consist of Hydrogen, Helium, Carbon, and Oxygen.
(Hydrogen is fused into helium, 3 heliums become carbon, carbon + helium becomes oxygen. The Oxygen does not seem to fuse at these temperatures though one wonders about neutron capture.)
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:3, Informative)
IANAAP but I though the heavier elements were created in the massive stars that formed and quickly went supernova in the early history of the universe.
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:/. editors played video games in science class. (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, I'll help you out here a little, as the guy is even dumber than you think. Metal oxides don't exist in the sun *at all*, because molecules can't exist in the sun. In fact, neither do atoms. The sun is a plasma - a bunch of nuclei and a sea of unbound electrons. So you have metal nuclei, oxygen nuclei, and electrons, but no metal oxides.
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like there's still an obstacle or three in the way...
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:5, Informative)
There is currently not a distribution system for delivery of gaseous fuels direct to consumers at the scale required to power our cars. There are some small-scale delivery systems (propane, for example) but those still require a trained handler and other special steps -- you typically can't pump your own propane, propane needs to be stored outdoors in a ventilated cabinet, etc. And the infrastructure for propane is small: a couple hundred gallons per homeowner per winter up here where it's cold, maybe a few tanks for cooking in the summer, that's it. There aren't nearly enough trucks and tanks required to provide fuel for all vehicles if they were suddenly converted to propane.
Even if the safety issues were handled technologically, neither propane nor natural gas are ready for "the final mile". Most homeowners don't have an existing gas "tap" where they can hook a hose up to their car, so they'd require new plumbing. For that matter, home delivery of natural gas is pretty much restricted to metro areas in northern states: it's not currently available in the far south or in rural areas. To make it available everywhere else would require a huge investment in pipes.
Then there's the problem with the storage of hydrogen or any gaseous fuel. For there to be enough energy to power a vehicle for any useful distance, a fairly large quantity of it needs to be highly compressed. Where do you put a large pressure vessel in a car so that if it's in an accident it has the lowest risk of rupturing? If you've ever seen even a small tank of high pressure gas rupture, you'll realize some of the danger. Now, make that gas highly flammable, and you'll be even more unhappy.
The idea of a magnesium coil as a fuel source is a good one. It could distributed in user-replaceable reusable metal boxes, each containing a humanly-portable 20kg of fuel, and having room for an equal amount of oxidized waste. Assuming a well-designed non-sparking container it would require no special handling, and would be remarkably inert. It would also be quite safe in most accidents, even those involving the fuel containers themselves.
These boxes can be carried by ordinary trucks. They would not require specialized tankers like propane or even gasoline. Any existing trucking firm could safely handle boxes of this product as is. And you could buy and sell them anywhere, not just fuel stations: a grocery store, discounter, convenience store, wherever. They would have no foul or toxic smells or hazardous liquids, and would run the same risk of accidental ignition as any other flammable metal, which is to say: not a lot. If you've ever tried to ignite magnesium or aluminum, you're probably aware of the amount of heat required to get it to sustain flame.
The part of the story that requires the most handwaving is the "mining" of the fuel. Both aluminium and magnesium are naturally found in the oxidized state (much like the spent fuel from the vehicle itself.) The amount of energy required to refine the metal is immense. Keep in mind that you cannot get something for nothing; that means the energy required to refine it must be higher than the amount of energy retrieved from the metal when it is burned. And that means huge amounts of electrical energy will be needed to produce a fuel stream. With an emphasis on reducing costly oil consumption, with today's technology that would basically mean lots of new nuclear reactors will be required.
Think of the magnesium more like a "rechargeable battery", storing electrical energy in the form of unoxidized metal. It's still going to require energy that comes from somewhere else.
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Informative)
1) You wouldn't get a coil of MgO, you would get a lot of small MgO crystals floating in your water.
2) It takes a heck of a lot more than a spark of static electicity to ignite a small magnesium turning. A coil should not be a cause for concern.
3) However, selling them at the convenience store: Your problem isn't accidental ignition. The problem is what happens if there is a structural fire for other reasons? That mig
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Interesting)
Your point about structural fires is valid (and no, I don't know how to extinguish a magnesium fire, either. Perhaps a liquid nitrogen spray?) It's possible tha
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)
From TFA, "Refuelling the car based on this technology will also be remarkably simple. The vehicle will contain a mechanism for rolling the metal wire into a coil during the process of fuelling and the spent metal oxide, which was produced in the previous phase, will be collected from the car by vacuum suction."
So, functionally, we need to load a "pump" with several tons of metal wire, and then suck the waste back out again for disposal.
That being the case, I suspect the infrastructure requirements in terms of loading, transportation, unloading, fueling, and recovery might be a bit more involved than you, or the author or the article, make them out to be.
"Remarkably simple," indeed.
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Interesting)
Just pull the wire from the feed, push it through your car's input and start the winder. If the feed is hose-like and the input is tube-like with the hose's nozzle fitting in it, the feeding process can be completely automated to have a very gasoline-like overall feel. The nozzle/hose could also have a vacuum pump to collect expended fuel and top off the water tank.
As others have said though, processing Mg and Al to locally generate H2 and O2 is pretty energy-intensive
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Interesting)
Then consider that the PEMFC's output is electricity, which must be put through a motor to drive the vehicle. If we're generous and assume the motor is 90% efficient, you are now on par with a well built
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Informative)
You take nanometre sized particles of iron, aluminium or boron. They are injected into a standard internal combustion engine, a spark plug ignites the particles, the heat causes the air/fuel mixture to expand, operating the engine, the exhaust stroke pushes the spent fuel out where it is captured by an electromagnet (the particles are so small that they act like fine dust, floating in the airflow - the researchers tried years
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:3, Funny)
Personally, I prefer activism to terrorism.
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:4, Funny)
Personally, I prefer activism to terrorism.
Personally, I prefer not taking signatures so literally.
Re:Example of moving the pollution elsewhere (Score:5, Funny)
Why is it unfair? I can think of a self replicating transportation device [wikipedia.org] which is powered by the result of proper application of water, air, dirt and solar energy. Technically, an initial seeding device [wikipedia.org] uses solar power to combine water and air into the fuel [wikipedia.org] used, and generally creates more copies of the special seeding device in the process, sometimes the copies are imperfect though [wikipedia.org] leading to changes in the fuel delivery system. This fuel creation device does needs adequate application of other chemicals, such as nitrates, phosphates and trace metals, but these can be extracted directly from the soil by a fuel production plant. Additionally, byproducts [wikipedia.org] from the transportion device itself can be used to replenish the chemicals used [wikipedia.org]. Although improper disposal of the byproducts may be noxious and pose a potential health risk.
These devices are often matched up in speed competitions, similar to automobile races. [wikipedia.org] This remarkable system has been used to great effect in law enforcement [wikipedia.org] and military operations [wikipedia.org] for quite some time now. This device has also seen great success in farming and ranching operations.
There has been discussion of adapting this technology for flight, however most experts find the idea is not feasible to implement. Repair of malfunctioning units does require specially trained technicians [wikipedia.org] and it takes delicate care to reassemble any broken parts, although there is a limited repair system built in to the device.
Oh, and a lot of girls find men who get around using this method to be far more attractive than a guy who drive a Prius.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Too good to be true (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Too good to be true (Score:3, Informative)
1) Magnesium is pretty reactive. If you soak Mg in water, Mg binds with the O, releasing H2. This means Mg + H2O = MgO + H2. MgO is pretty harmless. Th
Sounds like BS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sounds like BS (Score:5, Funny)
actually (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like BS (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Sounds like BS (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like BS (Score:2)
There are several practical difficulties with this process but obtaining super heated water is not one of them. The hydrolysis of H2O by Zn is an exothermic and self-sustaining reaction. The water is simply heated by the waste heat from the formation of ZnO.
A more pressing engineering problem is separating H2 from steam, either with a cooling/condensing loop or through filtration, and also capturing the Zno product for recycling. There is a minimum 5-8 years needed to make this kind of technology prac
Nice but... (Score:5, Informative)
In all seriousness, I wish them success. It remains to be seen whether they can create an efficient system for collecting the corroded/expended metal. How often do you see puddles of leaked material under a car? No mention of how much "metal oxide" this venicle produces, but I cannot imagine it's something we want leaked onto the ground.
I'd put my money on the H2N-Gen, but then again that guy's being sued for patent infringment [engadget.com].
No no no no (Score:5, Funny)
Where do Slashdot editors come from? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, a lot of Hydrogen Economy True Believers need to enroll in that same class. Nothing against hydrogen per se, but half the nation seems to think of it as an energy source, which of course it isn't..
Re:Where do Slashdot editors come from? (Score:5, Informative)
I nominate the entire DOE Handbooks [doe.gov], not only for the /. editors but for the most part of /.ers overall, myself included. DOE-HDBK-1012/1-92 will cover Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, and Fluid Flow. The math and science DOE Handbooks are a great free, downloadable resource. The basics of Physics, Chemistry, Electricity, Materials science, Reactor science and attendant math are all covered.
The DOE Handbooks are a rich resource that cover every aspect of implementing and running an organization. The books cover disputes, roundtables, the list is very nearly all encompassing.
Nothing speaks to independence like your own in house nuclear reactor and the DOE Handbooks guide you through nearly every step of the way.
Re:Where do Slashdot editors come from? (Score:3, Interesting)
And, just to straighten it all out (and make a point ;-), neither is oil. It's just that the time difference between energy input into the carrier/medium, and energy output, is measured in millions of years, not hours/days/weeks/months. And somebody else - Mother Nature - put in all the hard work of converting hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and sunlight into a recoverable energy storage medi
The zinc and magnesium cartels! (Score:2)
===
It definately sounds too good to be true, but I guess we'll see in a couple of years when the thing goes commercial, eh?
I have advice for the company: (Score:2)
Re:I have advice for the company: (Score:2)
Bollocks. (Score:5, Informative)
For instance, aluminium is produced by electrolysis: the ore is dissolved in cryolite, and the pure metal produced by passing an electric current through it. (Details [wikipedia.org])
There's a number of aluminium smelters in Australia (my home country); at least one of these has its own dedicated power plant, burning brown coal to produce its electricity.
So no, it's not "making its own fuel". The fuel is the refined metal and the acids (or water) that are combined with them to make the hydrogen gas. The fact that burning the hydrogen is what generates the useful energy is irrelevant to this point. The pollution is shifted to wherever the power to make the metals is produced.
When it comes to energy, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Re:Bollocks. (Score:5, Interesting)
True. But how does it compare with zillions of cars worldwide being started in the morning on full choke? If Al/Mg/Zn/whatever can be produced at a power plant that runs continuously at peak efficiency, then ok it's still polluting but it's better than what we currently have.
One enormous benefit of this approach is that the raw materials are completely recycled. Burn oil, you have no oil left. Convert Mg to MgO and back again and you still have your original Mg.
A completely pollution free solution this is not. But it's an improvement, no?
Low-cost sodium from equatorial coastlines (Score:3, Interesting)
There are many places in the world where intense sunlight is available pretty much every day, all year round, and which also possess a coastline. Many countries already run water or salt extraction plants in such locations. (I've seen one myself.)
In principle, such sites can provide an inexhaustable supply of sodium from salt-water, and a "free" source of energy from the sun to power the extraction. (An
Article Text (Score:2, Funny)
A unique system that can produce Hydrogen inside a car using common metals such as Magnesium and Aluminum was developed by an Israeli company based in. The system solves all of the obstacles associated with the manufacturing, transporting and storing of hydrogen to be used in cars,
Re:Article Text (Score:5, Funny)
Lets assume this works as advertised (Score:2)
obSimpsons reference (Score:5, Funny)
This site looks like fluff... (Score:2)
Correct me if I wrong, but isn't hydrogen's biggest problem simply that it's stored in water (for us on earth) and that the electrolysis to seperate it
Google News Headline, 23rd October 2040 (Score:5, Funny)
Water is an emission with enough cars. (Score:2)
But any hydrogen based car system is going to dump a lot of water into the environment if everyone goes to hydrogen. I wonder with 200 million cars if the water/water vapor is going to act as a pollutant, encourage mold growth, etc.
Translation into chemistry: (Score:3, Interesting)
The reason people don't do this now, is that pure light metals are hard to come by, and are often difficult to handle. Sodium and lithium are excellent light metals which are too expensive to refine as pure metals to make effective fuel supplies. Their process likely uses incomplete oxidation with the weaker, but cheaper metals magnesium and aluminum, with some form of reaction catalyzer to increase the rate of H2 production.
A. Are Mg and Al cheaper
B. Toxicity vs. Petroleum, is the "goo" produced
C. What is the magic catalyst?
This whole thing seems like a japanese or european concept car, with maybe 30-50hp and more a replacement for an electric car than any competitor to current models, at least not in America.
Let's do some math... (Score:3, Insightful)
Neglecting the costs of taking the recycled aluminum oxide out of your car and turning it back into Al rods, the maintaince costs for the fuel station, infrastructure costs to build all this, and so forth. Shipping costs will of course astronomically climb since metal can only be transfered in by train, truck or ship unlike cheap pipelines and is also no longer an easily moveable liquid. Nevermind the cost of your aluminum powered car itself, or the engineering difficulties inherent in moving a 100kg metal coil into your engine, this "upgrade" is already going to break the bank.
I think I'll leave the hydrogen production outside of the vehicle, thank you. Nice try, but no dice.
Re:why yes! (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, it does. In all likelihood, you've never actually seen pure aluminum, just aluminum oxide. The reason that we can have things such as aluminum foil or aluminum can is that aluminum oxide forms an airtight barrier, preventing the underlying aluminum from further oxidation. Aluminum is exposed when you tear the foil, but it (nearly instantly) oxidises and reforms the protective layer. This becomes an issue in bulk processing of aluminum for powder (for things like paint and some pyrotechnic compositions). If the aluminum is not "burped" in the process of breaking down the particles, the powder will absorb all of the oxygen in the container, and the newly exposed surface area will cease to oxidise. When the lid id opened, "poof!" all of the unoxidised Al is suddenly exposed to a supply of O2, and a fast, exothermic reaction takes place. Being a highly reactive metal in a finely powdered state, this is BAD, but I digress...
Ok... energy needed (Score:2)
So either you need a solar energy source (which won't work on a rainy day), or you'll need a bunch of batteries, which are bad, or you have to burn gasoline/other fossil fuel to boil the water to create steam to make this elecrolysis efficient enough.
This is not a solution. I much prefer honda's solution mentioned earlier (an electrolizer/storage solution for yo
"Emission free", my ass! (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah, so the processes for gaining the aluminum and magnesium are completely green! The mining does no damage, getting the the metals out of the ore releases no pollutants and the process takes no nasty chemicals or fuel.
What a revolution!
Metal-Air batteries (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, this is a bass-ackwards way to do something that was done better at Livermore perhaps 30 years ago ( you can find a reference in the old "Access to Energy" newsletter by Petr Beckmann, if any of those are online ). Some Lawrence Livermore scientists developed a metal-air battery, which produced electricity directly from the reaction of the metal (aluminum or zinc plates, IIRC) with air via some catalytic electrode system. Like the Israeli system, you ended up with powdered metal oxide. Unlike the Israeli indirect-combustion system, the metal-air battery efficiencies were high and direct drive electrical power was produced, so you could control power to the wheels, do regenerative braking, etc. Since the metal-air battery produces electricity directly, the energy efficiency is probably 4X to 5X better than a hydrogen generator feeding a heat engine. With the metal-air battery you also can get the additional efficiency of a hybrid-type vehicle, so my guess is that you have 10X to 20X more energy efficiency than the Israeli Metal / Hydrogen / Internal Combustion / Mechanical Linkage system.
The Livermore engineers did not use magnesium, or sodium, or lithium, or other light metals. These metals pack higher energy density than aluminum. They also easy to ignite and burn very easily, with flames that are impossible to put out in air (sodium even burns in water). Yes, hydrogen burns faster (Hindenburg! Hindenburg! Oooooh scary!). But hydrogen burns UP, while burning metal just stays around and does a thermite/napalm number on you and your car. A magnesium slab in a car is NOT safer than a hydrogen tank in a car.
Even with the much better efficiency, Air-Metal batteries are not practical. It takes far too much energy to refine the metal, and handling metal and debris, cleaning the system, etc. are all far too much work. Now divide the value by 20, and wonder what those Israelis are smoking ...
P.S. Some researchers claim that the Hindenburg caught fire because of the ignition of the highly volatile doped fabric, which in turn set fire to the metal in the dirigible frame. The hot hydrogen vented upwards, remember, heating up the air far above the Hindenburg, but not affecting the passengers underneath. They got roasted by the burning dirigible body.
Dr Horvath I presume? (Score:3, Interesting)
We are in an age of confidence tricksters and in many places led by those who rely on inner circles and are thus easily tricked by such types - so unless some details are available and it can be reproduced elsewhere by disinterested parties it is safest to assume it is just another confidence trick.
I know that car (Score:3, Funny)
Here's a desktop version from Serious Wheels.com [seriouswheels.com] for you car nuts.
Laugh!
Already been done - but they killed it (Score:3, Interesting)
Not only did this avoid the need for a massive hydrogen production and delivery infrastructure in favor of an electrical supply grid that already exists, but the overall end-to-end energy efficiency of the process was vastly greater than the proposed "hydrogen economy" can ever be.
The car in question was the GM Gen 2 EV1 with nickel metal/hydride batteries. I drove one every day from 2000-2003, when GM pulled them all off the road and sent them to the crusher even though everyone who had one would have gladly continued to pay real money to drive them.
The hydrogen-powered car is pure hype. In every respect (cost, range, energy efficiency) it is inferior to the battery EVs that could be had now. So why have the automakers pushed the hydrogen fuel cell so much? Simple. California had a mandate on the books that 2% of cars in the 2002 model year would be zero emission (that mandate had already been delayed from 1997). Automakers like GM, as well as the oil companies, loathed that mandate, but they couldn't say so right out loud. So to a gullible public they dangled the promise of "something even better" -- hydrogen -- at some indeterminate time in the future in exchange for killing the mandate that was here and now. And sadly, they succeeded.
Just one of the many benefits brought to you by a horrific degree of scientific illiteracy among both average Americans and their leaders.
Re:water -is- an emission (Score:3, Insightful)
use friction from other places, like the engine or the wheels. Even present
day cars can have problems starting in conditions like that.
SealBeater
Re:water -is- an emission (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are going to beg for a problem to bitch about, say it's going to be about the reservour freezing, or in the case of this car, filtering out water vapor (recycled) from the nitrogen which TFA neglects mention.
Oz
Re:I don't get it... (Score:5, Informative)
remove the used magnesium oxide. Essentially, the waste is contained in the car instead of spewed out, and I think there is a use for magnesium oxide. Also they need to change the water. Since they have to take stuff out of the tank, refueling is a bit more complicated.
Re:Yes... (Score:2)
plus metal...
plus (maybe?) nasty chemicals...
Re:Pretty amusing (Score:3, Insightful)
Completely ignoring the fact that Sodium in its pure state is highly explosive when any piece that's even relatively small touches any water, and the fact that the possible quantity and extent of the lawsuits that it would bring the first time a kid decided to crack open one of those balls of Sodium to find out what it "tasted like," yes, it would have been in every home years ago.
Re:Editors (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Make aluminium from bauxite and electricity and stuff. Lots of electricity. Really big amounts of electricity.
2) Burn aluminium in water, releasing hydrogen, and creating aluminium oxide/hydroxide.
3) Burn hydrogen in a normal internal combustion engine, max efficiency 40%, say.