U.S. Scientists Create Zombie Dogs 1010
Alex_Ionescu writes "U.S. scientists have managed to revive dead dogs to life, by using a technique similar to cryogenation, in which the dogs' blood was drained and replaced by a cold, saline liquid. A couple of hours, their blood was replaced, and an electric shock brought them back to life with no brain damage. The technology will be tested on humans within the next year."
Re:well... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:well... (Score:5, Informative)
They were refering to the use of this in medical emergencies. Put someone into this state, work on the damaged tissue with no bleeding or time crunch, then revive when they are fixed.
I'm more interested in knowing who the hell is going to volunteer for this procedure...
Russians were doing this in 1940 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:well... (Score:5, Informative)
Writeup wrong... (Score:1, Informative)
It doesn't say anything about human trials within the next year.
Has to do with the oxygen level (Score:5, Informative)
Hence the reason for injecting saline -- it takes the oxygen-carrying blood out of the tisses almost immediately, which is what you want to do. The SA article authors said this seems a little extreme to use in humans, and I agree. They've had some success with mice using Hydrogen Sulfide, I think, mixed in with air. Also, surgery for animals that are "dead" brings in a whole new line of specialties that we haven't developed yet. This is going to be a fascinating area to watch, imo.
Re:well... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:well... (Score:2, Informative)
Here is the link http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?cha
Unfortunately, it is just a synopsis for the digital version you have to buy.
7C is enough for infections (Score:3, Informative)
so if you do this long enough, watch the infections
During the procedure blood is replaced with saline solution at a few degrees above zero. The dogs' body temperature drops to only 7C, compared with the usual 37C, inducing a state of hypothermia before death.
Re:well... (Score:5, Informative)
The evil government experiment was the Tuskegee syphilus study. They told residents of Tuskegee that they would receive free syphilus treatment and then treatment was withheld so the effects of syphilus could be scientifically documented and studied.
I do not know if any of the Tuskegee Airmen (the only black squadron -- or the first, I don't remember -- in WWII) were in the study also, but they are not the same thing at all.
Re:Fake, but hilarious! (Score:5, Informative)
Some better links are here [pitt.edu], here [pulmonaryreviews.com], and here [post-gazette.com].
Re:well... (Score:3, Informative)
Pittsburg is also the home of the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, which is what the Safar Centre for Resuscitation Research [pitt.edu] is part of.
The man the center is named after developed [redcross.org] CPR.
Re:I call "bullshit" on this article. (Score:1, Informative)
I seem to recall two cases of children falling into sub-freezing lakes and remaining there for 30-60 minutes. Being revived and having no brain damage. It is the extreme cold that protects the brain from damage as I understand it.
Re:I call "bullshit" on this article. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:well... (Score:4, Informative)
There was a recent article in Scientific American* talking about suspended animation that may give clues as to how this works. Cell damage does indeed take place during low oxygen states (hypoxia) when the cell's metabolism continues without sufficient oxygen available and allows free radicals to build up and cause cellular damage. It appears that in some organisms, when you reduce the oxygen to an even lower state or remove it completely (anoxia), the cells can essentially shut down thier metabolism into a state of suspended animation. In other words, either normal oxygen or no oxygen can be tolerated, but there is a 10 fold window of low oxygen concentration that can be deadly. I believe this is where the brain damage occurs. If you stopped breathing right now, your blood still contains oxygen which would get slowly depleted as the cells continue to respirate. Perhaps the key to this technique is to rapidly replace the blood with a no/very low oxygen content fluid that will transition the cells from normal oxygen to anoxia as quickly as possible an minimize the amount of time spent in hypoxia.
This procedure has already been demonstrated in animals like mice though it is unknown whether humans can safely undergo the same conditions, as we (obviously) dont normally go into hibernation. Though we've all heard stories of martial arts masters lowering their breathing rates and body temps for extended periods, so maybe it is possible. It would be an absolutely amazing breakthrough, though I wouldnt volunteer to be the first human test subject ;)
* I am not remotely an expert in this field, but my background is in biology. I hope my memory has recalled the facts of the SciAm story without too much error.
Alvaro Garza, Fargo ND, 1987 (Score:5, Informative)
Actual article abstract (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/12/134
Re:well... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:well... (Score:5, Informative)
The 10 minute limit is for slow suffocation at normal temperatures. Two things happen:
- First, many of the tiny valves controlling the distribution of blood in the brain capilaries shut, trying to route the remaining oxygen to the neurons controlling things like breathing and heart rate.
These valves are tiny muscles, which, once contracted, require power (from metabolization) to reopen. Let them be oxygen-starved for too long - about ten minutes - and they get stuck closed. Then, even once oxygen is restored, the blood remains cut off to the areas they control. (It does no good to raise the blood pressure to try to force blood past them: You'll blow the plumbing before they leak. Massive stroke.)
- Second: As with the muscles, the neurons have continuous chemical reactions going on that cause damage that must be cleaned up by active, powered, systems. Turn down the oxygen while leaving the temperature up and the cleanup systems fail while the damage mechanisms continue. (Firing the nerve uses up additional power, making the problem worse.)
Let this go on for more than half an hour or so without turning the air back on and the damage gets ahead of the nerve's ability to repair it - causing cell death. That ruptures the cell and releases a glutamate - which tends to force other nearby nerves to fire, consuming their resources and speeding their death, in the "glutamate chain reaction". This easily gets started in regions of the brain fed by still-shut-off plumbing. But with enough glutimate dumped it can spread to nearby areas that have adequate oxygen - because it's not adequate to keep ahead of the massive firing and cell exhaustion.
The first mechanism sets the normal time limit. But the second is the final catastrophe.
But diving sets up a condition much like suffocation upon resurfacing: Swimming underwater pressurizes the gas in the lungs, and the organism can remain active for some time before it starts to run out of oxygen. But then it takes time to get back to the surface - and the lowered pressure on the ascent causes oxygen levels in the blood and tissue to crash. Not good.
Evolution came up with a workaround: The "mamilian diving reflex", so called because it's characteristic of all mamals - happened a LONG time back.
When the reflex detects a deep dive (cold on the skin - especially on the back of the neck, I think), it modifies the valves' reaction to overall oxygen shortage: Instead of shutting off blood to "unimportant" (for respiration) parts of the brain, it causes ALL the valves to OPEN. Then if they stick they stick open. This risks speeding respiratory failure. But once (if) oxygen is restored, it allows it to reach ALL the brain. Get oxygen back before the cells start dying (after a half hour or so) and they all get the power they nead to clean up and get on with life.
So if you drown in COLD water you can be breathing-stopped for a half-hour or a bit more and still be restarted with no long-term brain damage.
This treatment seems to extend on that: Flooding with cold saline will activate the diving reflex, sticking the valves open. Then the rapid oxygen loss will shut down all energy-driven metabolism - both the repair and some of the damage-makers.
Meanwhile, the deep cooling of the tissue (to essentially refrigerator temperatures) will slow the other damaging chemical reactions, just as refrigeration slows meat spoilage. (It IS slowing meat spoilage! And 7C is about 45F, close to the 40F recommended for refrigerator settings.) This is probably the main factor in getting past the half-hour limit on cold-drowning.
Separate storage of the blood allows the replacement fluid to be optimized to cool the rest of the body at a more rapid rate than could be accom
Re:Try feeding your damn dog asshole (Score:4, Informative)
That having been said, baby iguanas eat the feces of adult iguanas in order to acquire the symbiotic bacteria which enable them to digest their food.
As uncommon as it is to find coprophagic bacteria in carnivores and omnivores, it's very common among herbivores.
Ok, that's been my essay on animals which eat their own crap. Dogs - yeah, I don't know why they do that. Dogs will frequently ingest CAT crap with giddy abandon. I don't have any idea if that's a nutritional thing or what.
That having been said, I'd rather deal with a crap-eating dog which will take orders, than an aloof cat which just stares at me blankly. I've already got an iguana, which will basically just do whatever it wants to anyway - and it's a lot cooler to look at than a cat.
Re:well... (Score:4, Informative)
What will most likely happen is a team will learn the procedure, then wait till their ER gets the right candidate for it. "Mrs Smith, your husband was shot multiple times with a shotgun during a robbery and his insides are shredded. It would take hours to repair and he *WILL* bleed out in the meantime. We simply can't pump enough blood in him to keep him alive. We do however have an experimental protocol we could try. We would replace his blood with ice-cold saline and put him into something like a hibernation state while we try to repair the damage, then replace his blood and restart his heart. Do you want us to try?"
Re:Here's the scene... (Score:4, Informative)
He then empties a can of mountain due into the fish boql and the fish floats at the top apparently dead.
A few minutes later he repaces the mountain due with water again and the fish is remains floating upside down.
A 9V battery is then dipped into the water and it seems to shock the fish back to life.
This is related, but not the actual abstract (Score:2, Informative)
This is not the pack of dogsicles referred to in the australian article.
This abstract discusses using cold saline solution to induce mild hypothermia in the brain after a cardiac arrest, and during a 20 minute period without a pulse in order to preserve brain function. It's has a lot more to do with trauma surgery and a lot less to do with suspended animation, though technically one could argue that the differences are as much quantative as qualative.
I checked it out, kind of (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How long can they stay in storage, anyways? (Score:3, Informative)
That, sir, is the "Million Dollar Question". Normally, cells take 'hits' from different causes. Those causes can be cancerous cells, allergens, clots, rogue bacteria, viruses, radiation... all sorts. Your body continually heals from this stuff until you gradually am not able to heal any more. Hence aging and sickness the older you get.
In a cryogenic bath, you can assume that celluar damage wont occur as the cancer cells, bad bacteria and the viruses cant do stuff (you know, frozen and all) and you cant get injured as you cant move. My big consideration is that of radiation. We get roughly 70 rads of radiation per year, no matter where we're at on the Earth. Now, when we're up and functioning, our body can handle those 70 rads/year hits with no problem... but how does it heal when we're in cryostasis?
If our cryo-statsis bodies cant heal radiation damage, will we just have a brain-damage time limit (eg: shelf life)? Kinda scary if they cant figure out a way to fully shield us (of if they can..).
I know lead is a nice high density element that absorbs a good quantity of radiation, but would a osmium shielding work better? It is, after all, the denseist(sp?) element on the periodic table. Has there been any experiemnts with radiation and materials that than lower risk? That, to me, would be best for cryo-sciences now.
Re:well... (Score:3, Informative)
I would guess that the reason for using the saline solutioon is two fold. First, cooling a body down to 7C quickly is kind of tough. If you do it from the outside in, the middle bits are going to take a while to cool.; whereas, if you use the pre-built distribution system of the body (vascular system) you can get all places cool faster. Second, the saline solution will have a lower freezing temperature, which means that it can be colder without forming ice crystals, and damaging cells as a result. Along with that, I would wonder if it doesn't increse the salinity of the rest of the water in the body, and keep that water from freezing in the process.
Re:High Quality News Source (Score:4, Informative)
Not Exactly (Score:2, Informative)
The Tuskegee men were poor black and southern and like most poor black southerners considered worthless to society. As a result they had not been retrieving treatment, nor were they ever likely to get treatment (at least from their state government). The Doctors involved in the study saw this as an opportunity to study the progress of syphilus without treatment [not that such a study was really needed, but it fit in nicely with the controlled study idea begining to gain favor].
However the men involved were rightly distrustful of the government and the Doctors had to provide incentives for them to come to the hospital to be studied. So they started providing "medical care" but of course there was no budget for real medical care so they provided limited medical care, and of course did not provide the antibiotics that would have cured the syphillus. It was the provision of inadequate medical care disguised as appropriate care which was so clearly unethical.
And yes they are different from the Airmen, who I don't know anything about.
Re:Try feeding your damn dog asshole (Score:2, Informative)
Re:well... (Score:2, Informative)
So is there a temperature limit for metabolizing?
What there is is a strong effect of temperature on most biochemical processes, including those reponsible for metabolism. We humans aren't intimately familiar with this effect because we maintain a relatively constant body temperature under normal conditions. But if you've ever seen a lizard or snake on a cold day (when they have a low body temperature) they're much slower than on a hot day. What you're seeing is the effects of temperature on the molecular motors that run the muscles. And if you measured the metabolic rate of a reptile, you'd see the same termperature effect - slower metabolism (less ATP consumed per minute) at low temperatures than high ones. For most physiological processes, including metabolism, rates drop by 2- to 3-fold for every 10 degree C drop in temperature. For a 30 degree C drop, that gives up to a 3×3×3 = 27-fold decrease - enough to make 2 hours at 7 degrees the equivalent of about 4-1/2 minutes at 37 degrees C.
Now, there may be other, regulatory (i.e. active) factors at work as well during this sort of dramatic (for mammals) temperature change that decrease metabolism even further. But a lot of it can be explained by this generic temperature effect.
Re:Try feeding your damn dog asshole (Score:1, Informative)
umm... no. they *need* to eat poop.It's for the B vitamins. they have 2 kind of poop - cecal and fecal. (basically first time through and second time)
Cows have multiple stomachs and shuffle stuff from stomach to chew to stomach. For bunnies, it's the same process, but done externally.
Grass is a pretty low "profit margin" method of survivial - OTOH it has an extremely low risk of being injured by your prey. Unfortunately, with the low calorie density it takes a huge gut to digest. The cow and bunny are effectively increasing the length of their guts by running the food through twice.
http://www.friendsofrabbits.org/health/mystery_of
Human guts are somewhat shorter because fruit and veggies are more nutritious than grass, a cat's is drastically shorter because of the need to excrete meat waste products quickly, and the much higher caloric value of meat vs plant foods.
Re:Try feeding your damn dog asshole (Score:2, Informative)