From Carnivore to Herbivore 347
smooth wombat wrote in to mention an a recent discovery in the field of evolutionary biology. From the article: "A surprising discovery in Utah has paleontologists scratching their heads and asking: Why would a carnivore evolve a herbivorous diet? The species, christened Falcarius utahensis, belongs to a dinosaur group called the therizinosauroids. These are mostly thought to have been plant eaters. But the recently discovered fossil, the most primitive therizinosauroid found so far, seems to have survived on a mixed diet of meat and vegtables...The switch to vegetarianism is surprising, says Paul Barrett, who studies dinosaurs at the Natural History Museum in London. The therizinosauroids belong to a larger group of dinosaurs known as theropods, and many of these are known to have been excellent at catching a meaty meal. "
Intelligent Design? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Intelligent Design? (Score:4, Funny)
Odd (Score:4, Insightful)
Holy mental seg. fault batman.
-Matt
Re:Intelligent Design? (Score:3, Funny)
inciteful? (Score:2)
Re: Intelligent Design and Vegetarianism (Score:2, Funny)
I think that it was probably due less to "intelligent design" flaws, and more to the dinosaurs saying, "You know, our prey are feeling beings, and therefore it is unethical to use them for food when other means are available for meeting our dietary requirements.".
I know that that's why I became a vegetarian, and what's good enough for me was probably good enough for dinosaurs.
Re:Intelligent Design? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Intelligent Design? (Score:3, Funny)
Thank you, I'll be here all night! Try the veal!
Hah. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hah. (Score:4, Funny)
And look what happened to them.
Re:Hah. (Score:2)
I think vitamin overdose did them in.
Re:Hah. (Score:2)
Not strictly vegetarian. (Score:4, Informative)
"Although the team cannot know whether Falcarius was a committed vegetarian - it may have eaten a bit of meat, too - its emergence did coincide neatly with the evolution of flowering plants."
Why evolve to eat plants and animals? I dunno, but it works for me too!
"At the same time Falcarius appeared, the world was changing greatly because flowering plants were appearing," Dr Sampson said. "They would have provided a new food source. It could be that Falcarius was exploiting an open ecological niche."
Two simple reasons. (Score:5, Insightful)
Potatoes don't run fast or put up much of a fight.
A given amount of land can support more grazers than carnivores.
Switching to an omnivorous diet means that there will be more of them.
Re:Two simple reasons. (Score:2, Funny)
Apparently you haven't met some of the potatoes they served at school cafeteria back when I was in primary school...
Re:Two simple reasons. (Score:3, Funny)
Thats what *you* think. Did you ever live under socialism in Soviet Russia?
Re:Not strictly vegetarian. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not strictly vegetarian. (Score:2)
Given that the dinosaurs didn't have any Ex-Lax available to them, they found that a little bit of roughage helped pass the time while sitting on a stool.
Why is this so confusing? (Score:5, Insightful)
As you go up the food chain, you get less energy from the meat.
So perhaps this animal simply decided that munching on grass was more efficient than killing a T-rex?
Josh
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Another thing learned in basic biology is that an animal, when faced with starvation, will eat what it can, when it can. If the supply of smaller meaty dinos was dwindling or the range of the Falcarius expanded into an area were there were more plants than animals, and the plants could be eaten- then why not?
This isn't a new or even novel behaviour- cats and dogs are generally considered carnivores thought both will eat plants to get nutrients and fiber when they need them.
People are the same way- we evolved eating meat most of the year and plants when meat was scarce. We (and many other animals) CAN eat both because we're built that way.
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:5, Informative)
There are a couple of other trade-offs involved that make it less simple. "Pure" energy is converted less efficiently into meat, yes. But digesting meat as opposed to vegetables can be easier (less celulose) and allow simplification of digestive structures (drop the appendix, ditto multiple stomachs). Meat converts more efficiently into energy. Herbivores have to eat in bulk and spend most of their time foraging or digesting. Carnivores can go longer without food. But they have to hunt the stuff down.
I don't think this is confusing either - the balance can tip either way based on circumstances.
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:3, Funny)
Not really (Score:4, Informative)
That's not quite how it works. Plants have to photosynthesize enough to grow and maintain "operations," herbivores have to eat enough plants to grow and maintain "operations," etc. Eventually a top predator is ultimately eating a lot of plants more because there are a lot of middlemen.
As you go up the food chain, you get less energy from the meat.
There's generally more energy in meat, and it's denser so you spend a lot less time eating meat calories. Of course, finding and killing that meat is a different story. I expect the answer to our question is one of relative scarcity or competitive ability - perhaps a different predator took away the market?
But it's not one of energy density, most definitely.
Re:Not really (Score:2)
I do recall being told in my biology class
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:3, Informative)
Whales are carnivores, eating krill and other small animals. Sea lions are carnivores, eating fish. Killer whales eat them both.
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
What about fish? There are many which eat other, smaller fish. People eat dogs in some parts of the world. Also, though it's not mainstream, I know some people in Arizona who like rattlesnake. They'll catch them and barbeque them. And yes, supposedly it really does taste like chicken
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
You want exotic? Try plucking a chicken before you toss it on the campfire!
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
Fish, birds (some birds eat bugs, worms, rats), snakes, lizards. Cats and dogs, not to mentionjust about every kind if wildlife up to tigers, are eaten in Korea and China at least.
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2, Funny)
I would, however, like to point out where I got the idea from. An old girlfriend of mine claimed that oral sex was always better if you were going down on a vegetarian. Her theory was that anything coming out of the body of a carnivore is going to taste terrible. The sperm/meat of a herbivore is much more delicious.
It sounded like a reasonable explanation at the time.
Re:Why is this so confusing? (Score:2)
Sharks,
Cats,
Dogs,
Tarantulas,
Snakes,
Tunas,
Pigs,
Squid,
Eels,
Octopuses,
Pengui
Seals,
Dolphins,
Crabs,
Lobsters,
Leopard
Dang (Score:3, Funny)
goD put that fossil (Score:2, Funny)
goD put that omnivore fossil out there to confuse scientists and test the faith of evangelists. hE had so much free time after creation that he wanted to play some tricks and enjoy looking at the morons that hE created for hiS amusement.
Re:goD put that fossil (Score:2)
Re:goD put that fossil (Score:2)
It'll never run in Kansas. The newspapers would have crosses burning on their lawns. After they've settled Darwin's hash, next, pi = 3, and as for the Copernican so-called "theory"...
Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, the chain for a carnivore is simply longer by one (plants->herbivores->carnivore)
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:5, Funny)
The way I look at it, I'm a vegetarian, but cows are part of my extended digestive tract.
Bullshit? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:3, Funny)
As the top level predator (excluding man, of course) in Africa the male lion can afford to snooze away most of the day while his female does most of the work. No different from humans in western civ.
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:2)
Are you saying that lions are hunter-gatherers?
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:2)
Re:Carnivorous isn't superior (Score:2)
(a) their primary food has a much higher nutritional density, so they do not have to spend 10 hours a day feeding. GNUs need to eat lots of vegitation and that doesn't come around in handy 200 pound chunks.
(b) Gnus sleep less because they have to stay aware and alert to escape predators (aka lions, hyenas,...). Very few animals prey on lions. For a lion, a sleeping Gnu is dinner--for a Gnu, a sleeping lion is something to stay the hell away from.
Carnivore... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Carnivore... (Score:2)
I just figured that they wanted to give Homeland Security (AKA the distruction of civil liberties) a friendlier name.
Re:Carnivore... (Score:2)
greenpeace? (Score:2)
(seeing how the lower you go in the food chain, the more energy efficient it is..)
works for me (Score:2)
I haven't eaten meat (or fish) for 20 years now. I feel great, and look a lot younger than i am. Perhaps the critters found themselves in an abundance of readily available, high-energy greens and decided it was much less work than trying to catch & kill their next meal.
The creature's thigh bones were longer than its shin bones, suggesting that it could run at an impressive pace. "The legs are still adapted for running after prey,"
Well, the sorts of things a cheetah chases can run pretty bloody fas
So where do you get your B12 from? (Score:5, Interesting)
While I would agree that a vegetarian diet is certainly healthier than what most people eat, the fact is a balanced diet from all the food groups including animal products is not only wise but absolutely necessary for a healthy human body. If my memory of biology class is correct just about every herbivore has to eat an enormous amount of plant material to sustain themselves, with specialized digestive sytems. Why do you think a cow has four stomachs?
I watched my sister fade away on a stict vegan diet and even with supplements it wasn't enough. She re-introduced a weekly serving of meat and noticed a huge improvement in her mood and energy level. Her experience taught me that a balanced diet is more important than focusing on any one particular food group and my diet is the better for it.
Re:So where do you get your B12 from? (Score:2, Informative)
i've been vegetarian --no meat, no fish-- for 18 months now, and to bo honest it's very easy to get a
Re:So where do you get your B12 from? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:works for me (Score:2)
There are plenty of scientific studies proving that.
People in countries with a high rate of fish consumption live longer and healthier for longer.
Of course the sad thing is the fishing industry is screwed up and the seas aren't getting much cleaner.
Pandas (Score:3, Interesting)
So how is this anything new?
Re:Pandas (Score:3, Funny)
Not that surprising. (Score:4, Interesting)
Humans, incidentally, have been natural herbivores for hundreds of thousands of years -- one can live longer and healthier as a vegetarian than as a carnivore strictly speaking. But we are considered omnivores because our bodies can tolerate meat as well as plant matter. It is not surprising to see a similar evolution taking place in other species as well; what is surprising is our relative level of resistance to this fact.
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah yes, you bring to mind the ancient cave paintings of carrots, apples and bottled water. Your statement is further backed up by general recommendations that modern strict vegetarians take vitamin supplments to alleviate the deficiencies in Vitamins B12 and D.
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:5, Informative)
Vitamin D is a hormone you synthesize in your skin from exposure to ultraviolet light (usually from the Sun). You might be interested to know that Vitamin D is ADDED to milk as a supplement.
B12 is from bacteria in soil. Historically it was also present in running water as it erodes soil. Modern agriculture depletes topsoil and consumers over-clean produce; historically you would eat a little dirt and thus get the B12, which has an RDA in MICROgrams.
Staying indoors and avoiding dirt are both side-effects of modern living, but evolutionarily, there is no reason being a plant-eating human would cause a deficit of these nutrients.
Modern life makes up for shortcomings with a pill. So, take your pick.
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:3, Interesting)
And I'm pretty sure we can get Vitamin D by staying in the sun. So, from an evolutionary standpoint, it seems that vegetarianism (veganism, really) would be a primary method of food consumption.
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
Ah, you must mean the vegetarians who eat fast food, same reason many meat-eaters are taking B12 and D as well as other nutrients(calcium, etc..) after seeing their Doctors.
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
A good site is:
http://www.eco [ecologos.org]
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
Re:Not that surprising. (Score:2)
Most humans are very good at relying on fish as a protein source. If you're looking for a diet that is healthy, rather than trying to fit some ethical code, low-in-oil fish are an excellent choice. Oily fish like salmon work well too, but in modern times they tend to concentrate pesticides.
Surely it's obvious (Score:2)
Why do herbivores turn into carnivores? (Score:2)
Any ideas?
Re:Why do herbivores turn into carnivores? (Score:2)
Re:Surely it's obvious (Score:2)
A bit of a correction.. (Score:2)
If they were originally eating a diet of meat and vegetation I believe the proper terminology is "omnivore".
Re:A bit of a correction.. (Score:2)
This article seems to be a whole bunch of nothing. Probably butchered what the scientist(s) said. Or there was (more likely) nothing definite to say. Well, we think X ate meat because of all the sharp teeth but Y, a relative, seemed to have eaten some plants. Diet probably evolved.
Reporter/submitter takes it to say they evolved to herbivores. More likely, they were never true carnivores to begin with. Hell, people would assume a bear is a carnivore and be very wrong...
From the Prey's Point of View ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Plants often use predation by another species to facilitate their reproduction, e.g. bird excrement spreads seeds. So perhaps focussing on the dinos has it backwards ... the plants have a positive incentive to encourage the saurians to try a little salad with their mammalburger.
How is any of this surprising (Score:5, Informative)
Without exception, all animals can eat meat. Even the cow retains the ability to produce bile acids to break down fat, the primary source of energy for most predator mammals.
Re:How is any of this surprising (Score:2)
Re:How is any of this surprising (Score:2)
If you eat a raw diet, you can really only eat fruit, juice, nuts,
Re:How is any of this surprising (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:How is any of this surprising (Score:3, Interesting)
Sit down and eat a pound of carrots, one of the few vegetables with a relatively high sugar content you CAN eat raw. You will not feel very good and you will have consumed hardly enough to live on.
If you think about it carefully, you weren't eating a vegetarian diet like a cow. You likely used olive oil, and did consume a larger quantity of cooked grains(like bread) than you care to admit. Especially since you claim to eat once
Re:How is any of this surprising (Score:2)
A biproduct of this reaction is oxygen which filled t
Butthead Dinosaur (Score:3, Interesting)
This [denverpost.com] was hard to track down. Listening to the original description on discovery.ca (TV) I couldn't help but think about Stampy from the Simpsons (1F15).
All the fitness that's new. (Score:3, Insightful)
Which pretty much makes me a vegetarian... (Score:5, Funny)
Obviously, Falcarius utahensis got a girlfriend.
Tomato and spinach pizza, wtf.
Morals (Score:2)
Filling evolutionary slot. (Score:2)
"Perhaps certain dinosaurs were pushed along the evolutionary route to vegetarianism because they lived in an area where there was no other plant-eating competitor, he suggests."
I think that if this where the case there was not just evolutionary pull but a push also. If they lived in area without plant eating competitor it makes me wonder what does a carnivore eat...
You had me scared! (Score:2)
A hypothesis (Score:2)
The logical implication of this is that any sudden mass
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
How they knew (Score:2)
--Rob
Re:Most Herbivores are Omnivores. (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, as a matter of fact I have. Many times. Except in their dialect it comes out as "Moooo Moo Mo Mooooo Moo Mooo MooMoo".
Re:Good grief (Score:2)
Then aren't they more properly termed omnivores? Calling them one or the other is incorrect, but common. I suspect we base dinosaur diet mainly off of their body type. Which doesn't work very well-as you have pointed out. Personally, I find it utterly unremarkable that these critters may have eaten veggies. The mass preservation (including some of their diet, apparently) is much more interesting.