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Math Education

Mathematicians Become Hollywood Consultants 521

techstar25 writes "With the recent success of movies incorporating mathematics, Dr. Jonathan Farley, a professor of mathematics at the State University of New York at Buffalo who is currently doing research at Harvard, tapped into his professional knowledge and headed west to Hollywood, where he and Dr. Elizabeth Burns, founded Hollywood Math and Science Consulting to help television and movie producers portray accurate mathematics on screen. Their first client: the CBS drama Numb3rs. 'In many cases, they want me to elaborate on some of the math already in the script,' said Farley. 'I help add dialogue and fine tune the math already in the script. It's not just about fixing mathematical mistakes . . . It's also about helping them get the culture right.'"
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Mathematicians Become Hollywood Consultants

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  • They do need help (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bgspence ( 155914 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:19PM (#12446359)
    For the most part, Numb3rs does a hack job on applying math concepts to real problems. On typical example is using statistics to predict exactly when and where a specific event will occur.
  • Re:Math Culture? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Valacosa ( 863657 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:30PM (#12446431)
    The mathies where I am [uwaterloo.ca] stick out like sore thumbs --- at least there's a definite "culture" to the math building. Often there's some board game being played in the lounge like Titan or Settlers. If not that, then at least someone's playing Magic: The Gathering. They like not sleeping (and gaming instead), and bemoan the lack of women in their faculty. (Though my department, Physics, is worse off.)

    Then there's the jokes.
    Q: What do you get when you cross a banana with a goat?
    A: |goat| * |banana| * sin(theta)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:34PM (#12446474)
    If you have sequence of similar images from a video or still camera you can use image stacking algorithms to create enhanced stills beyond the original resolution and remove some of the noise. Nothing today can can do that as quickly or as cleanly as what is portrayed in the media today though.
  • Tech in Twenty-Four (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bitwise97 ( 825611 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:35PM (#12446479)
    Anybody else cringe when Cloe and Edgar go to work on the set of Twenty Four? These guys need serious tech consulting. I love that show but hate when they start babbling about encryption keys, routers, and "pass codes" while expecting the audience to believe they're all somehow related to the task at hand.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:39PM (#12446512)
    24's ability to throw around computer terms in the most incorrect and laughable manor; quickly turned some episodes into a laugh fest.

    I would love to get paid to go over scripts and fix there computer terminolgy. Kudos to the guys who are pioneering this type of consulting.
  • For example? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Chess_the_cat ( 653159 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:50PM (#12446629) Homepage
    With the recent success of movies incorporating mathematics.

    Care to provide examples of your claim?

  • Re:Now if someone (Score:2, Interesting)

    by crowemojo ( 841007 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @06:53PM (#12446655)
    The problem is that if the hacking were accurate, it simply wouldn't be that exciting. "Oh look, he ran metasploit" somehow doesn't have that 'it factor' that they are most likely looking for.

    "You mean it's not accurate to say 'I'm gonna drop a hydra and pop their firewall?' Eh, it still sounds good, so screw it"

    "We can't image enhance the picture taken with this cell phone to accurately read that liscense plate off the car that was driving 80 miles an hour? Too bad, keep it in."

    Something tells me that hollywood execs realize they are sensationalizing, and that their techniques, interfaces, and terminology isn't quite accurate, but they don't care. The same is true in a lot of things. I can't even watch movies involving the military with my Dad because he was in the service for 26 years and has a hernia pointing out all the things they get wrong. Guess what, I don't care because I'm not a military person just like a lot of their target market doesn't care about the failed geekspeak because they aren't geeks.
  • Re:About Numb3rs (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jejones ( 115979 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @07:11PM (#12446800) Journal
    The episode that had to do with the guy who claimed he had a proof of Riemann's Hypothesis was, I thought, handled pretty well.
  • by Edmund Blackadder ( 559735 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @07:12PM (#12446824)
    Lawyers are very worried about legal shows, and not just because of the inacuracies. Actually, entertainment's treatment of law is usually more accurate than its treatment of science and math, because a lot of the writers have had legal training.

    However, some shows set really bad example. For example in Law and Order which is supposed to be the most serious and respected of the legal shows, the main hero of the show (the prosecutor) keeps doing things that are either illegal or immoral for an attorney in his position. It usually has something to do with hiding evidence that he is supposed to submit to the defence, or tricking a defendent or a witness. And the show celebrates these breaches of the ethics rules, essentially portraying the prosecutor in being really clever in getting the bad guy.

    Pretty much every second part of every eposode is portrayed as a heroic battle between the good guys (that prosecutor and an ever changing hot female prosecutor) on one side and the forces of evil (the civil rights of the defendant and the rules of ethics) on the other side. I have yet to see a show where an innocent defendant has been spared inprisonment because of the proper observance of his rights.

    And of course since more or less the whole population has seen at least several Law and Order episodes (and many people watch that show religously), when the government decides to curb civil rights, the people don't really mind, which is not what you would really expect from this freedom loving nation.
  • Re:Killjoys (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tgibbs ( 83782 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @07:24PM (#12446916)
    Not quite. While being thrown 20 feet is of course nuts, it is not unexpected that a bullet would extert more force on the target than the shooter, if we are talking about a semi-automatic. In that case a good portion of the recoil is absorbed into the reloading mechanism (the slide).

    Momentum cannot be "absorbed" by the slide because it is conserved. The force can be spread out in time, but the momentum transfer is unchanged. Check out the Mythbusters episode in which they shoot a human-sized hunk of meat hanging from a hook with powerful rifles. It barely moves. There simply isn't that much momentum in a bullet.
  • Classic math mistake (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Hao Wu ( 652581 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @07:47PM (#12447090) Homepage
    In the Wizard of Oz, when the Scarecrow finally receives a diploma at the end of the movie, he blurts out:
    "The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side."
    NOPE! A correct statement would have been:
    "The square of the hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides."

    (They could have fixed this mistake digitally for the DVD release, one would think....)

  • Smarten Up (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fprefect ( 14608 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @07:58PM (#12447175)
    [i]We see that once again the need for ratings overwhelms the need for completeness and accuracy.[/i]

    Seriously? What do you think people would rather watch, someone working through complex equations on paper or a chalkboard for hours on end, or generating a few models and then explaining how they apply to the real world? Is your need for accuracy so important that you are double-checking their work instead of paying attention to the plot of the show? Have you stop watching SciFi since you realized there are no such things as transporters and aliens, and that hacking into a Gibson isn't nearly as fun as they make it look?

    Sure, it's not 100% accurate, but neither are the forensics dramas, murder mysteries, or hospital shows. People don't want to watch the all boring bits of someone else's life where they catalog swabs, fill out paperwork, or treat someone's rash. It's a drama, it's supposed to be about the story and the science or math is mostly there to give it some context. If it shows people that there are practical applications for otherwise cerebral stuff, then it also encourages education and research, which is a win for everyone.

    I understand you, as a math major, had higher expectations for the show, but what's the point of making a show that only 0.1% of the population can even follow, let alone want to watch? Maybe you work on equations all day and want to come home and see it mixed in with your police dramas, but I doubt many people do. Still, I find their characterizations and science to be reasonable, maybe a little sophomoric but much better than most of the fluff out there.
  • Re:Thank God (Score:5, Interesting)

    by henni16 ( 586412 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @08:10PM (#12447236)
    To ease the effects watch and remember Futurama;
    stuff like the shelf with the two books labeled "P" and "NP" (IIRC in "Put Your Head on my Shoulder"),
  • by tempmpi ( 233132 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @08:17PM (#12447275)
    Actually it is possible. BUT not from a single frame but from a video. Do a search on citeseer or google on "superresolution" and you will find a bunch of papers about how to guess single high res frames from a video.

    The brain is damn good at that too btw. Try it, reduce a video to a really small resolution, watch it and you will be impressed about how much you can recognize when it moves.
  • by creysoft ( 856713 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @08:19PM (#12447293)
    Yes, the stuff we're talking about is impossible. You cannot create fine detail in an image where none exists.

    If you have a 1.5GB image, the resolution is probably something on the order of 2000dpi, and was taken with a camera that costs more than your house. You can "zoom in" all you want, but you *still* can't zoom further than the actual resolution of the picture, and keep getting increasing detail.

    Don't get me started on the security camera frames, digicam shots, and blurry 35mm scans that they're working with on CSI et al. Maybe if all security cameras cost $100,000 and had 100TB hard drives for storage, the magic technology could be feasible. And even if the show takes place in some kind of fantastical alternate universe where this is true, the level of absurdity they take it to would *still* be difficult to swallow. It's almost like they make it intentionally unbelievable.
  • by Edmund Blackadder ( 559735 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:00PM (#12447545)
    The most ridiculous computer related scene perpetrated in a movie:

    In independence day Jeff Goldblum (sp?) sees a captured alien ship which has not been opened or examined by humans before. The ship is sealed and one cannot get inside of it or open it to see its internals. They know nothing about alien technology.

    So what does Jeff Goldblum do? He sneezes and that gives him an idea. Why not give the ship a virus? He proceeds to open his apple notebook and somehow interface with the ship to give it a virus.
  • by codegen ( 103601 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:13PM (#12447620) Journal
    They had an episode where they brought up the Heisinburg principle and applied it to human behaviour. The Heisinbug prinicple is based on the fact that to observe an atomic particle, you have to illuminate it with a photon of some sort and therefore change it. This does not apply at the human level. The human socialogical effect of knowing you are being observed is called the Observer effrect and in some specific cases the Hawthorne effect. Both are based on the principle that observing a subject may change it's behaviour. But the Heisinburg principle says that it is impossible to observe without changing the subjects behaviour, while the observer effect says that the behaviour only changes if they are(or become) aware of the observation. The Hawthorne effect specifically relates to performance measuring studies where the employees always do better when they know they are being studied.

    The concept that somehow that the principle of illuminating a subatomic particle and changing either the location or velocity of a partical somehow affects human behaviour is an example of Junk Science and is nothing but technobabble. But then more people know about the tension between Einstien and Heisinbug than know about Hawthorne.
  • Re:I'll bet [objoke] (Score:1, Interesting)

    by d3m057h3n35 ( 695460 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:25PM (#12447704)
    Does anyone else wish that the waitress said "With respect to what?" first, for greatest accuracy?

    Funny, I don't really enjoy being that anally retentive, it just comes naturally.
  • by TedTschopp ( 244839 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:27PM (#12447715) Homepage
    You can make that comment in 2019 when we see what cameras can do. And of course when we see what Computers can do then as well. It's kinda like looking today at a game like World of Warcraft and saying such a thing would be crazy back 1970. Bladerunner was basically set 35 years in the future...
  • by Blakey Rat ( 99501 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:36PM (#12447776)
    What about how moving a sword, no matter whether it's touching anything, always produces a metal-on-metal sound in fantasy/historical movies? That bugs the shit out of me.
  • by mikael ( 484 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:39PM (#12447802)
    Oh yes, that happens with the Saturday soccer results in the UK.

    Twenty years ago, the match results used to come in using real teletypes across the UK, and so they had a TV camera placed right above the teletype machine, with the output line being subtitled on the screen. This was a simple and efficient solution.

    But then, the switch to electronic transmission and computer display was made, and so instead of doing something new, they still pretend to have a 75 baud connection. Rather ironic, when the entire match is being broadcast by satellite.
  • Sneakers Consultant (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MrScience ( 126570 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @09:41PM (#12447810) Homepage
    In the great movie Sneakers [imdb.com], they hired Leonard Adleman, one of the co-inventors of the RSA algorithm. He provided slides for the big math lecture. Thinking that, hey, this was Hollywood, he spent a solid week (going off memory there) creating pretty graphs and typographically sound mockups of the subject material, in exchange for giving his wife a chance to meet lead actor Robert Redford.
    To his dismay, on the day of the shoot, he discovered that someone had just grease-penned some mockup slides to make it look more "authentic."
    He said something like, "If I'd known thats what they wanted, I could have handed something over in a few minutes. And it'd be correct!"
  • They'll find errors, but they'll usually give kudos to a show/movie that gets it close.

    My father, who was a retired district attorney used to tell me that Law and Order (the early episodes) was the closest to the real thing ever put on a screen. He would watch it every week, only every so often getting a little irked that they totally messed something up.

    My uncle used to be a Captain in the Air Force whose job was to be a "key turner" in one of those ICBM silos. A few years ago I asked him about the opening scene in "War Games". His response: "Well, it didn't look as cool in real life, and it wasn't as high tech looking, but otherwise, that's exactly how it was".

    So occasionally Hollywood does get it almost right, even if they do take a few liberties. Though I'll have to admit ever since joining the Army, most films about the subject really piss me off.
  • by sexecutioner ( 597887 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @10:19PM (#12447989)
    I agree completely. My non-science friends always laugh at me when I bring this sort of thing up, and always cut me down by saying: "Huh? It doesn't matter, you see TV and movies rely on this thing called suspension of disbelief and it seems you don't get it."

    My problem with this idea is that most TV shows are about people. So what if you wrote a sitcom where all the people talked out of mouths in their hands and performed all kinds of obscure social customs that no-one understood?

    That's a stupid example I know, but then if someone said - "that show blows, it's not real" then my friends can say "suspension of disbelief" all they want - the show's still shitty and unrealistic and hard to relate to.

    I see science ideas in movies/TV shows as being just as important as social/people ideas are. Sure, in some styles of shows it doesn't matter - eg Sabrina Teenage Witch show, it's magic, anything can happen. But when people write a science fiction movie or TV show then they should be sensitive to their target audience and show some respect.

    As a footnote - I always wonder why script-writers/producers/directors stuff the science up because you can achieve just as many cool effects, do as many weird things, have impressive situations, all within the confines of reality + logic.... I just don't get it.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @10:30PM (#12448043)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by bluGill ( 862 ) on Thursday May 05, 2005 @11:32PM (#12448367)

    I could live with those mistakes if they were intentional. A show where people talk with mouths in their hands would be interesting, but that has to be an intentional part of the plot. (And in general it should figure in some of the puzzles)

    If a mathematical proof relies on a pi being 16 that is fine, but it better be intentional, and figure in the plot in other ways so that I can tell the writer is doing it intentionally. (Any writer attempting this had better be good at math because a universe where pi = 16 would be weird in many ways and that needs to be explained)

  • by kfg ( 145172 ) on Friday May 06, 2005 @02:21AM (#12449017)
    I was just informed tonight that a book I worked on as the science consultant, one a Harvard astrophysicist has prepublication reviewed and deemed as having "impeccable science" is going to publication.

    The book?

    Poetry. About the making of "The Bomb."

    Look mom, top of the world. I'm an "acknowledgement."

    There are two things I find interesting about the whole thing. The first being that the poet was perspicacious enough to understand that he couldn't just "wing" the science and claim "poetic license." He knew he was writing about deep juju that he didn't understand and that he'd damned well better make sure he got the juju right. Most poets are fools. This one isn't. Even poetry needs to get it right.

    The second thing is where I, personally, come into the picture. The poet was a college English professor with access to the whole of the college's science department, but. . .he couldn't understand a word the physicists there spoke to him. He needed a physicist who could speak physics in English; and better yet, could do so from the perspective of and in the language of a poet. Not to mention help him understand the culture of physicists and the Manhatten Project, since as a poet it was the people and the culture that was of particular interest to him. This requires someone who can step out and view their own field as an outsider. A "Man From Mars."

    We met in a coffeehouse.

    So, it isn't enough to simply know your science. You have to also know how to convey the concepts to the foolish script writers in a manner that fools can understand and get it right. This would appear to be an unusual skill, but I believe one absolutely essential for all scientists to cultivate, because the populace at large is dependent upon us to explain these things to them; and if we don't do a good job we get nonsense like state legislatures introducing bills to make pi equal to 3, which carries far greater consequences them some stupid movie doing something stupid.

    And I'm really rather flattered by the review, as it reflects the quality of my work on the book.

    KFG

  • by rjh ( 40933 ) <rjh@sixdemonbag.org> on Friday May 06, 2005 @02:45AM (#12449094)
    Adleman also said the directors were right to use the grease-penned slides. There's no way a mathematician delivering a lecture would spend a week making perfectly pretty graphs. That's a week which could be spent further preparing the speech. A real mathematician would grease-pen the slides and run with it, which is exactly what they did in the movie. Adleman's mistake was he tried to give them what he thought they wanted, not what they wanted.

    The irony is he thought they wanted something that looked good, and they wanted something that looked like a real mathematician would come up with.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 06, 2005 @03:25AM (#12449231)
    "How about relatively simple technologies like radio, or jet engines?"

    Like jumping out of a taking-off jet's wheel well (without a parachute) and landing in a swamp, with no injuries whatsoever? Arnold Schwarzennegger did that in "Commando". (Note that, no matter how low its altitude, the jet, in order to be airborne, had to be traveling at least 100 MPH. The forward speed would kill anyone jumping out of it.) Of course, even worse in the suspension-of-disbelief department was that Allysa Millano could be his daughter. Now who would believe that?
  • by Gumshoe ( 191490 ) on Friday May 06, 2005 @07:05AM (#12449785) Journal
    Yes, a jet engine upside down on the beach still running after the crash made for a very scary noise, and having it explode in a huge fireball when some dude got sucked in was impressive, but they might as well have had a 50' clown catching people in a giant popcorn bag for all the plausibility it had.
    That incident was implausible until we learn later in the series that Hurley causes bad luck to occur to those around him. Notice who's stood by the engine at the time of the accident and his reaction. It's quite amusing once you know more about the characters.

    Granted, it's still implausible but the whole premise of the show is perfectly ridiculous too. I can hardly criticise it for the nuance being implausible.

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