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Science

Jocks v. Nerds: Detecting Gene-Dopers 205

Posted by michael from the science-fiction-smacks-into-reality-with-a-thud dept.
kevinvee writes "The World Anti-Doping Agency will soon put into place gene doping tests to detect athletes using gene therapy. Perhaps the most important part to recognize is that Congress delegates have said that gene doping is a 'clear and present danger.' Professor Geoff Goldspink mentions this of gene therapy: 'We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.' So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice."
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Jocks v. Nerds: Detecting Gene-Dopers More

Jocks v. Nerds: Detecting Gene-Dopers

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  • Arnold Schwarzenegger mice (Score:5, Funny)

    by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:46AM (#7188181)
    We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.

    Does this mean that instead of running around the maze, they suddenly start running for governor?

  • we blended rodney dangerfield and bobcat goldthwaite genes with a three toed sloth to create a slow lazy fat bitch with a nasty twich, and crackling voice who's always complaining about not getting enough respect while botching your largest account !!!!!

    AAAAERRRRrrrrrrrrrgggggghghhghghghghghghghg hghghghghghghghg

    what were you saying about mice and men?

  • Don't Forget! (Score:4, Funny)

    by The Kow ( 184414 ) <putnamp AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:50AM (#7188202)
    Vote Algernon in 2004!
    • At first I gotta admit I was anti-Algernon. He seemed pretty clueless and clumsy and had no political savvy whatsoever. I'd have said completely unelectable. But he seemed to grow into his candidacy-- more comfortable giving speeches, and more amazingly... they actually started making sense to these skeptical ears! In fact, some of his policy proposals are downright ingenious if you ask me. His plan to completely eliminate all government taxes, fees, and licenses while simultaneously increasing servic
    • Vote Algernon in 2004! [slashdot.org]

      The problem is that some Algorenon voters are too stupid to correctly use a ballot.

      Oh wait, you said Algernon [danielkeyesauthor.com]. Never mind...

    • No way. I'm totally supporting the Benji Mouse/Frankie Mouse 2004 Campaign! They've got the Answer!

      Better Things for Better Living, Through Chat-Shows!
  • Wondered how long it would be before Ahnold jokes entered the /. news headlines. I can already see his campaign at the next election... you KNOW its gonna have "I'll be bock" somewhere in it.

  • Gene Therapy for intelligence (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:51AM (#7188213) Homepage Journal
    So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice.

    So, are you saying the incumbent will be getting a little NR2B gene therapy? (For those Slashdotters who are not neuroscientists, NR2B keeps the NMDA receptor in nervous tissues from desensitizing, apparently making learning in mice easier).

  • Where can I get some dope genes? (Score:5, Funny)

    by evn ( 686927 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:52AM (#7188215)
    a 25% increase in muscle mass in 2 weeks

    So, I can go from an 80 pound weakling to a 100 pound beefcake in the time it takes me to compile Gentoo on my P2-300?

    Those jocks from highschool are going to be sorry they shoved me in my locker...
    everyday...
    twice.
    • But you see... the muscle mass is yours for sure, but there's no guarentee Gentoo is going to compile.
    • only if you're body is pure muscle mass . . .

      The average healthy male is 45% muscle mass, so for the 80 pound weekling, it'd be 80 + 80*.45*.25 for a whopping 89 lbs . . . I don't think the jocks are that worried ;)
      • Despite the sound of it, 9 pounds of muscle added in 2 weeks would be awesome. Normally for a beginner body builder, it could take you a couple months to achieve that. (assuming proper sleep, diet and exercise of course.)

        If you consider yourself "an 80 pound weakling" [BTW, is a "weekling" "someone who only lasts a week"?] start eating more beef and chicken and start lifting some weights dude.

        Then again, if you're only 13 years old, you COULD just wait for puberty. ... And if you're about to graduate fro

  • Like the X-Men movie (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bull999999 ( 652264 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:53AM (#7188221) Journal
    And thus, the hunt for the mutants has begun.

    • Descendants of mutants? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by lommer ( 566164 )
      This is an interesting question - I can see that they would not allow a genetically modified super-athlete to compete, but what about that person's children? They may still carry the genes, yet those genes were passed on to them naturally. Will having on genetically modified ancestor (say to make them stronger to resist cancer) ruin an entire family's chances of ever competing in international sports? If not, how many generations must occur without genetic modification before the modified-gene advantage is
  • >> We can put genes into mice and create Arnold
    >> Schwarzenegger (news - web sites) mice. If it can be >> done on mice it can be done on humans," said
    >> Goldspink.
  • Professor Geoff Goldspink, from University College London, ...said testing technology was "almost there."

    Almost there, huh. The list of things that are almost there (dirt cheap solar cells, 64-bit Windows operating systems, Segways replacing all other forms of personal transport, television sets that you unroll and hang on your wall, the RIAA actually winning a case in court) is endless -- and is likely to remain that way since the axiom that the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time and effort, an

  • is it really cheating, though? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FearUncertaintyDoubt ( 578295 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:54AM (#7188229)
    It seems to me that the valid reason for making steroid use illegal for competition is that it has dangerous side effects -- i.e., if it was allowed, then everyone would have to use it to stay competitve, and you'd have all these athletes with serious medical problems and roid rages and all that because of it.

    If there was a performance-enhancing chemical that was completely safe, I say it is fair, because its use does not involve serious risk. That said, I think the IOC doesn't see it that way.

    So my question is, is gene therapy dangerous? If it is, then it probably should be banned. But if not, then why not allow it? At some point, doesn't it seem kind of arbitrary which things are allowed and which are not?

    • I have Cystic Fibrosis and Celiac Disease. Gene therapy may, at some point in the future, be the only thing that can save my life.

      Is it dangerous? Well, for me it's only dangerous in the negative sense, if I don't get it I could die.

      It kinda focuses my attention on the issue.

      I could, of course, be dead before any possible real therapy becomes available. This doesn't make me feel better about possible congressional roadblocks to its development, oddly enough.

      As for its use in sports the issue is handled
      • > This doesn't make me feel better about possible congressional roadblocks to its development, oddly enough.

        You were aware that the Congress of the United States and the International Olympic Committee Medical Congress are two different things, right?

        The congress mentioned in this article is composed of doctors that make medical policy for the olympics. They have nothing to do with development of treatments for Cystic Fibrosis.

        If I may say so, it seems a lot of people here missed that--I don't mean
        • Yes, I am aware of the difference and did not confuse the two, although the setting may obscure that fact.

          You may be unaware, because it is not quite so pressing an issue to you, that members of Congress, big Cee, are already making uneasy noises about all of this as well and it was that to which I refered when I said congress.

          I handled the sporting issue quite seperately.

          KFG
          • Yes, the context did rather obscure that you were refering to two seperate groups.

            I had heard a lot of noise about Congress "investigating" deaths and injuries that occured during clinical trials a few years ago, but I wasn't aware that anyting had come of it.

            What I recall was mostly a demand that trials be as safe as possible, which kinda boils down to business as usual.

            Noone runs trials where they expect to kill they people they treat, after all. It's expensive to conduct these trials, and if there ar

      • Some info (Score:3, Informative)

        by The Tyro ( 247333 )
        CF is a disease that could be perfectly treated by gene therapy... it comes from a single defect, though the defect itself can vary, in the cell membrane Chloride channel. Treat the defect, and you can avoid all the consequences of CF (pneumonia, pancreatitis, sterility, Pseudomonas colonization, etc). CF is one of the most common genetic diseases, and is THE most common lethal genetic defect among caucasians.

        For the non-medical, non-bio-science geeks, Here's some info [nih.gov] courtesy of the NIH. Much like gen
    • You have some interesting points..But I think even if no health risks are involved it isn't fair to the other athletes if they end up having to go through gene therapy just to keep up with the competition...Also we would end up with lots less natural born/talented athletes in the long run and to a sports' fan, well..Lots of us would lose our respect for the players and the sport..
      After all, what is more impressive, someone who works harder than anyone else on the team and is the secound best player or the n
      • I don't think that gene therapy will do much for somebody who isn't already a good athelete. Nearly every atheletic competition I can think of involves a lot of practiced skill -- the type of thing that will improve the over-all posture and the kinetics of the athelete. No amount of gene therapy will ever replace that.
        • >Nearly every atheletic
          >competition I can think of involves a lot of >practiced skill -- the type of thing that will >improve the over-all posture and
          >the kinetics of the athelete.

          True. But some people are going to have the natural inborn talen towards those skills and some won't..With the added gene therapy, people who don't genetically have the talents can now have them..Perhaps even enhanced. My first post may have been a bit extreme as far as the number one player in his natural state (w
      • But I think even if no health risks are involved it isn't fair to the other athletes if they end up having to go through gene therapy just to keep up with the competition

        Why isn't it fair? Is it any more fair that they have to spend 60 hours a week in the gym/practicing? Really, this is basically just like an improvement in equipment, in nutrition, or in training methods. Gene therapy will not replace hard work, it will simply make that hard work more productive. If everyone does it, the bar is simply

    • According to the human genome project information page [ornl.gov], gene therapy is still in a very experimental state, and it could potentially be very dangerous for atheletes to engage in.
    • Danger isn't the issue. Steroids aren't really that dangerous if their use is carefully monitored by qualified people. It might not be that dangerous to have someone push you out of the starting blocks either, but it is cheating. The whole point of these competitions is to see what the athletes are capable of doing on their own through dedication and sacrifice, not seeing who can make the most bodily upgrades. In any competition the participants all agree to abide by the same rules and these rules are di
      • Part of the appeal is that you know that the athletes are, to some extent, comparable to athletes from centuries ago (though with better nutrition and training methods).

        You underrate improvements in nutrition and training methods, not to mention equipment (if nothing else, most sports at least include shoes as equipment, and there have been tremendous advances in shoe materials). How many records stand for more than a decade or two? Have a look at some swimming records [usa-swimming.org]. I see no one in the top 25 of t

    • We already separate men's and women's competition in most sports, due to the fact that the two sexes have (genetically determined) physical differences that would cause competition to be one-sided. So why not make it three categories: unmodified men, unmodified women, and modified humans? At that point I'd be fine with disqualifying gene-enhanced people from the first two categories.

      But then the question is, what is "modified?" Is it a modification to use a measurement device to non-invasively select the

    • On a more philosophical level, I've always believed that the main reason why they ban steriods in competitive sports is because they want to continue the charade that sports is:- that, somehow, it's a continuing spirit of human endurance, that's a fair, but competitive arena where any human can compete to the best of his ability, a place where the world otherwise bereft of heroes can see him and applaud.

      All of which is, to be sure, absolute nonsense.

      The faster we accept that sports is not a measure of hum

    • And if it didn't have any side effects, there wouldn't be any problems with shooting yourself in the head.

      These things all have side effects. The drugs all have side effects. Even blood doping (increasing your red blood cell count to improve stamina) will kill you occasionally (stroke). Genetic doping will carry the same risks. Look at that kid who died undergoing Gene therapy [nature.com].

    • So my question is, is gene therapy dangerous? If it is, then it probably should be banned. But if not, then why not allow it? At some point, doesn't it seem kind of arbitrary which things are allowed and which are not?

      It all boils down to doing things that religious persons consider to be the things only "God" can do. It really frightens these people that maybe "God" doesn't exist or doesn't exist in the capacity that that know it to be.

      Religious protesters trying to ban in vitro fertilization used

    • Actually, the way I see it, it would make sense not to discriminate based on ill effects for individual using substances; instead only ban ones that cause significant danger / problems for other people. And except for those cases (say, anabolic steroids causing danger via making already aggressive atheletes even more so...), just let athletes use whatever it takes

      What I think is the problem right now is that there's just this useless race between doctors/scientist finding new dopes, and then other doctors

  • Brain: Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?

    Pinky: I think so, Brain, but how are we going to feed the elephant? ZORT!
  • Why should I not be able to wear the pants I chose?

    • > bash-2.05a$ fortune
      > bash: fortune: command not found

      Heh, apparently one of fortune's cookies reads:

      "Segmentation fault (core dumped)"

      This, after debugging a faulty memory module that had been fucking everything up, appeared when I first logged in after removing the faulty module. Confused the fuck out of me. Damn you, fortune :)

  • This is stupid (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ryouga3 ( 683889 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @01:59AM (#7188253) Journal
    I'm sorry, but I think the probability of safe gene-doping existing is still well-within the realm of science fiction. And even if it existed, so what? Does that mean that if I dope with Michael Johnson's genes and go into a meet against Michael Johnson, that I will have an advantage? Would johnson have to quit the meet if they deem that his natural genes are better than the other athletes? And some gene therapies have caused death. it's not that stable. What we've found is that at the olympic level, training and diet do far more for atheletic performance than faddish treatments. Maybe this would be used in bodybuilding where they through all sorts of chemicals at their bodies, but I doubt it for the performance events. And finally, whether it's valid or not, they've gotten too zealous about the testing. The cold medicine disqualification of the russian gymnast last olympics is an example of how things have gone too far.
    • Not to pick on you and I might be wrong but... This Michael Johnson must himself be a miracle of genetic research in which they took the genes of Michael Jordan and mixed it with Magic Johnson to produce the ultimate basketball player. Not only can he jump higher, move faster, endorse more shoes, he can also survive AIDS. :-)
    • Don't be too quick with the "science fiction". I can't find the story right now, but a year or two ago the Chinese Women's Swim Team fielded a team of complete unknowns at some big meet. Six or eight of them put up near world record times. Maybe they found a half dozen phenoms. Maybe they used old fashion chemical doping. But considering the state of Chinese genetic engineering, I would put it within the realm of possibility that those girls were genetically enhanced.

      -B
      • With a huge population, and the political will power to commit lots of state resources to a search, this might just be a case where there was enough genetic diversity to serve up a couple of dozen candidates for "superior" swimming. No genetic enhancement needed - just lots and lots of screening, and a lot of money to train the potentials... which is essentially what everyone else does, only the Chinese have a bigger potential pool of applicants, so to speak.
    • Does that mean that if I dope with Michael Johnson's genes and go into a meet against Michael Johnson, that I will have an advantage?

      It doesn't quite work like that. Genes encode proteins, proteins interact to build cells, cells interact to build organs and so on. There isn't a "nose" gene that controls what your nose will look like, for example. Your nose is an emergent property of complex interactions between proteins. Similarly, Michael Johnson doesn't have a "speed gene" - his athletic ability is an
  • How would they make it work? AFAIK inserted genes look just like native ones. How could they tell the difference without have all available genes on hand for reference?

    Lots of viri get past virus scanners, do they expect gene scanner to do any better?
    • Hmmm, interesting question. I thought that they might look for sequences that the genetic manipulation adds to the genome (for example, maybe treating MS would be something like AGGCTACCTG etc). But if this is the genome for a regular person, then that wouldn't work.

      So you would indeed have to have the original genome to be able to notice a difference. I'm not sure, but some cells won't pick up the new genome and keep the old one because they are turned 'off' (i'm trying to make a connection between mos
  • So you mean that I actually have a chance of getting laid?
  • I say let the jocks use their steroids and gene therapy. When their nuts shrivel up and their genes go bad on them, the nerds they used to talk shit about, can stand back and laugh.
    • Well, in the long run, the nerd's won't be able to laugh because they have evolved into brainpods that interface directly to the network after hundreds of years of selective breeding/gene modification. Well.... they'll be able to LOL and :) at least.
  • I'd rather have Brain and Pinky for Pres. and VP than the monkeys that inhabit the office now.
  • 'We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.'

    Umm, Arnold is not a bodybuilder because of his genes. So we'll see athletes who inject Arnold genes, and wonder why it doesnt quite work, but their accents go really bad.
    • He's not a bodybuilder because of his genes.. He *WAS* a *GOOD* bodybuilder because of his genes ;)

      • No. (Score:2)

        by geekoid ( 135745 )
        He was an excellent bodybuilder because of his motivation.

        Of course, if it was just genes, we wouldn't have those puny legs.
    • Arnold certainly has genes that are advantageous to bodybuilding. Most people think if you spend enough time in the gym and take steroids, anyone can look like Arnold, but it's not true. Bodybuilding is not just a matter of muscle size, but also shape, proportion and symmetry and most people cannot ever look like Arnold.
  • I for one welcome our new genetically altered overlords.

    So, I really don't see the point and for once i'm agreeing with congress. Then again I'm pretty sure that a bunch of scientists would probably be selecting against the jocks (imagine committing a form of genocide just because you weren't cool in High School). Okay, it probably won't go that far, but people are going to start to want to peer into the genetic code and see what's going on, and from that point some people are going to ressurect the eugeni
  • I, for one, welcome our new furry white overlords.

  • Arnold mice? (Score:3, Funny)

    by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @02:15AM (#7188321)
    >'We can put genes into mice and create Arnold Schwarzenegger mice.'

    Amazing how far genetic insertion therapy has come. They can take an insider GOP mouse with no political experience and turn him into an overly-built "outsider" catch-phrase spewing governor?
  • If someday they can promise better genes with almost no negative effects, what would be so bad about it? Note the big "if"... Just hypothetically speaking.
  • Is that no matter what tests they come up with, the athletes who are "cheating" always seem to stay ahead and not get caught... Much like music sharing and the RIAA ;-)

  • oh, get over it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by penguin7of9 ( 697383 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @02:22AM (#7188342)
    "Once the technology exists for medical use disreputable people will be putting the stuff in athletes," he warned.

    If people want to do that with their bodies, let them.

    I think much of this fear of doping has to do with the fact that the olympic committee and sports clubs just don't want the futility of their "competitions" exposed. Right now, they tenuously maintain some illusion of participatory sports.

    What difference should it make to anybody whether some olympic athlete pumps himself full of genes? Those people are so far removed from regular human beings that it is like watching a carnival side show anyway.

    If you like sports, do it yourself. Compete, in a friendly way, with people you know and like. Anything else is not sports but voyeurism and soap opera.
    • The drama of sports is seeing what the human body can achieve through disciplined training and talent. Not what some scientist can cook up in his lab.

      So, if people want to do that to their bodies, let them. But dont let them compete against others and pretend that they're accomplishing anything.
      • But dont let them compete against others and pretend that they're accomplishing anything.

        And what are olympic athletes "accomplishing" right now?

        The drama of sports is seeing what the human body can achieve through disciplined training and talent.

        So, if someone's performance happens to be the product of a well-chosen mating, it's a "drama", but if it's the product of gene therapy, it's not? Sorry, I don't see it. I think the olympics are a carnival side show, with or without doping or gene therapy.

  • White mice (Score:4, Funny)

    by caseih ( 160668 ) on Saturday October 11, 2003 @02:33AM (#7188386)
    The earth, everyone knows, was commissioned by the white mice as a great computer to compute the question to Life, the Universe, and Everything, for which the answer is 42, and was built by the custom luxury planet builders of Magrithea, although it was destroyed just before it had found the question.

    "'These creatures you call mice, you see, they are not quite as they appear. They are merely the protrusion into our dimension of vastly hyperintelligent pandimensional beings. The whole business with the chesse and the squeaking is just a front.'

    The old man pause, and with a sympathetic frown continued. 'They've been experimenting on you, I'm afraid.'

    Arthur thought about this for a seond, and then his face cleared.

    'Ah no,' he said, 'I see the source of the misunderstanding now. No, look, you see what happened was that we used to do experiements on them. ... So what would happen was that the mice would run round mazes and things so that the whole nature of the learning process could be examined. From our observations of their behavior we were able to learn all sorts of things about our own...'

    Arthur's voice trailed off.

    'Such subtlety...' said Slartibartfast, 'one has to admire it.'"

    • I thought it was cool that your post was the last on the page, and the fortune was:

      The goal of science is to build better mousetraps. The goal of nature is to build better mice.

      I love coincidences.


  • A mouse could NEVER get elected as Governor.
  • ...anyone else of Gattaca?

    Gr@ve_Rose
  • Can't wait until we can buy a $15 at-home test for aim-bot gene hacks.

    On a more serious note, who cares? Aren't professional sports about accomplishing the most with the genes you have? Some people will have the Arnold gene for muscle mass. It hardly seems fair to tell athletes with it that they'll just have to try harder and still fail.
  • Uh, people....

    That's the IOC Medical Congress, not the Congress of the United States.

    Go here [olympic.org] to learn more.

    They don't pass laws or do anything else that is going to ever affect your personal life. All they do write rules about drugs and medical practice for the IOC .

    The Anti-Doping rules are their doing, and they make changes to them all the time.
  • ... revenge of the nerds (1) played today on comedy central.
  • If they only made olympic gold medals so that you'd only get to keep it if you lived until you were, say, 50. That'd keep your average uber-doped people out of it, I think.

    I mean, tho whole point of anti-doping is to try and keep it healthy, yes? No-one's trying to ban Gatorade or anything...
  • From the article: He said that laboratory mice had shown that gene transfer could lead to a 25 percent leap in muscle mass inside two weeks. If this is the case, and the rats didn't exercise, it would be possible to greatly enhance your physique while coding. The extra muscle mass would burn a lot calories just existing, so your body's fat would also dwindle. This sort of gene therapy could be the savior of the obese America. Sexy/buff looking guys who did nothing to earn it! I kind of don't like the i
  • This is somewhat interesting. But the atheletes don't need exotic new technologies when they can easily get away with using performance enhancing drugs. The two most prominent performance enchancing drugs which can't be tested for are EPO and HGH. Here's a Scientific American article [sciam.com].

    As this article states, the cheaters are way ahead of the drug testers. Notice that they have a quote from the anonymous Olympic Committeeman. "If this were a basketball game, we'd be behind about 98 to 2." I have even

  • So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice.
    There are already plenty of rats in politics, would a couple of mice really make a difference?
  • "So, be sure to watch next year's elections for furry white mice."

    I'm sure there's a Douglas Adams / HHGTTG reference here somewhere......

    Escoutaire
  • Testing methods are always a step behind doping methods. It takes 5-10 years after a new trick is available until it can be detected.

    I don't know why they don't take samples and keep them around for a few decades until tests have improved. It may take a decade or two, but it would be pretty certain that the cheaters get caught.
  • (racist) the darn Purto-Ricans / Dominicans / Japanese are pretty much working on engineering the perfect baseball player anyways (/racist)

    Bleh. Seriously though, what the hell is wrong with just using Science to take a shortcut to perfection? Hell ain't sports any ways just an outlet and a cheap excuse for mankind's base desire to filter out the more physically fit genes and put them into one big "fuck me now" breeding pool?

    Ah, thankfully we have Cocaine and other such wonderful drugs to kill those bas
  • As soon as we can make people more intelligent and we do enough clinical trials I say, let's go for it. What have we got to loose? All we can do is improve the speed of technological progress!
  • Where to I get some of that gene theropy?
  • I can't believe this thread has gotten so far without even one reference to the original megalomaniacal mouse (and comic foil).

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