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Space

Navigation Satellites Over Europe 155

Posted by michael from the where-is-pudge dept.
Snags writes "It looks like Europe is getting its own equivalent to WAAS (a set of ground stations and geostationary satellites which relay information to help GPS accuracy in the US). The EGNOS system system is having a base station inaugurated in Langen, Germany this week. The system augments signals from GPS and Russia's Glonass to provide 2-meter accuracy in Europe. This is the first stage of the Galileo system reported earlier, and I'm sure these satellites and base stations will perform the same function once the Galileo constellation is flying."
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Navigation Satellites Over Europe More

Navigation Satellites Over Europe

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  • brother (Score:3, Funny)

    by Ruliz Galaxor ( 568498 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:16AM (#6138038)
    after big brother, now also little brother will be watching us...

    sig(h)
    • Those sattelites are owned by Major League Baseball!

      McGwire: Young Bart here is right. We are spying on you, pretty much around the clock.

      Bart: But why, Mr. McGwire?

      McGwire: Do you want to know the terrifying truth, or do you want to see me sock a few dingers?

      Crowd: Dingers! Dingers!

      [McGwire hits the long ball]

      Oooh!

      McGwire: [takes printout] Yoink!

      [tucks it under his hat and looks around, suspiciously]

  • how to get a job there? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DrStrangeLoop ( 567076 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:25AM (#6138061) Homepage
    i am curious, what kind of skill set would be necessary to apply for a job there? i have a unix background, but no knowledge about astronomy/ space tech whatsoever [although i think the whole thing is rather interesting]. maybe someone in the /. community has some ideas on how to get into this industry?

    • Re:how to get a job there? (Score:5, Informative)

      by reddish ( 646830 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:52AM (#6138103) Homepage
      Well a large part of my job is space-related (I'm a software engineer) and from what I have seen the three most important things are: * be good at your specialism * the ability to communicate with people that have a different specialism * the willingness to learn a bit of domain knowledge (e.g. physics) The fun thing about the space industry is that most people are highly motivated, and good at what they do - you won't last otherwise. Also, you cannot go far without at least an M.Sc. degree in this world. Although the economy is struggling a bit right now, people with truly good computer skills are rare, even in the space sector. I was pleaseantly surprised to find that I could really contribute something there. Despite its image, space is really a quite conservative business with regard to new technologies; the "proven technology" doctrine is quite strong for obvious reasons. New developments come by way of evolution rather that revolution, and you have to be able to work like that. The best way to get into space-related work is via the industry; many big companies have a space division where most of the actual work is done. The role for ESA is mostly setup and monitoring of projects; the big bucks (and therefore the most jobs) are with the companies that get the contracts. I don't know if the prime contractor(s) for GALILEO have already been established but that is probably where you should look.

    • Re:how to get a job there? (Score:5, Funny)

      by XenonDif ( 670717 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:01AM (#6138117)
      Just get a job at the CIA. They'll take care of the details like training you and slipping you into the country.
    • I work in a company doing this sort of thing. I regularly see requests for people that have knowledge of electronics, antena's, communication protocols, and software. Usually it is required to be a european citizen or have a work permit.

      Check it out: Terma [terma.com]; click on jobs.

  • Axis of Evil (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:27AM (#6138062)
    Satellite navigation is a weapon of mass destruction. Let's bomb them now!

  • Unless US blows it up.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dackroyd ( 468778 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:31AM (#6138066) Homepage
    Dupe post for dupe story....

    Tragically we know how the US would like to react:
    http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20030522S0050 [eetimes.com]

    The nation's largest intelligence agency by budget and in control of all U.S. spy satellites, NRO is talking openly with the U.S. Air Force Space Command about actively denying the use of space for intelligence purposes to any other nation at any time not just adversaries, but even longtime allies, according to NRO director Peter Teets.

    At the National Space Symposium in Colorado Springs in early April, Teets proposed that U.S. resources from military, civilian and commercial satellites be combined to provide "persistence in total situational awareness, for the benefit of this nation's war fighters." If allies don't like the new paradigm of space dominance, said Air Force secretary James Roche, they'll just have to learn to accept it. The allies, he told the symposium, will have "no veto power."

    This would not go down to well at all. I know the US economy/military is the biggest in the world - but I still think that a trade war/shooting war with every other country in the world isn't the best way of improving the lives of American citizens.

    • Re:Unless US blows it up.... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by arcanumas ( 646807 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:49AM (#6138097) Homepage
      It would not be good for anyone. Not just Americans. I am very afraid of the twisted logic working on the minds of many American officials. They think that they can enforce anything they want to everybody else , just because they have a bigger army. Things i am afraid are not that simple. EU will not stand silent and be told that can not go into space (or any other bullying US may come up with). The possibility of a future conflict arises quickly.
      I would love to argue about how the size an army MANY times in history has proven to be irrelevant, but considering that both US and EU are "nuclear enabled" (TM), it is made clear that none can win is such a case.
      I hust hope that this "we are the ones" mentality stops before it is too late.
      Thank you.

    • Re:Unless US blows it up.... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If allies don't like the new paradigm of space dominance, said Air Force secretary James Roche, they'll just have to learn to accept it.

      Translation:
      If allies don't like us invading Poland, they'll just have to learn to accept it.

      • Re:Unless US blows it up.... (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Strange how they want the rest of the world to just lay down their arms and give up and say "hey use me as a doormat", and at the same time make fun of the belgians and the french.
    • I am afraid of Americans... God is an American

      :-\
    • Excuse me for being ignorant, but how exactly are satellites that improve the accuracy of GPS over Europe useful for spying? Where would lie the threat to US?
      • but how exactly are satellites that improve the accuracy of GPS over Europe useful for spying?

        Being able to build recon drones that know where they are.
        Being able to give special foces soldiers GPS units that tell them accurately where they are.

        Also the phrase that was used in the article is 'denying the use of space for intelligence purposes' so it may cover photo-imaging satelites.

        • What you've really gotta ask is, if this "policy" is accepted, will any countries who want to launch any satellites then have to prove that they have no "advanced intelligence-gathering" uses or risk getting "negated"? Or will only US approved sattelites be allowed? Sound crazy....? well:

          Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made it clear that the abrogation of treaty constraints in the use of radar and tracking devices was not just for the benefit of fielding a missile-defense system, but to build better unilatera
          • Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made it clear that the abrogation of treaty constraints in the use of radar and tracking devices was not just for the benefit of fielding a missile-defense system, but to build better unilateral networks to manage the planet from space.

            For millions and billions of years, the planet has managet itself just fine. I don't see any reason why it should all of a sudden need the help of some (parasitic?) humans, especially Donald Rumsfeld...

        • Yes. We should also forbid deadly weapons like wooden planks with nails on them.
      • irak was no threat to US too

    • Re:Unless US blows it up.... (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Trust me when I say. This has NOTHING to do with being an American. We are APPAULED by 100% of the shit that is going on here in office. The opposition here in the US is HUGE, the only problem is every mass media is owned by a handful of people that have their hands in the proverbial cookie jar. Everything over here is tainted. (Look how the bastards entered office, the final decision hanging on a state I might add run by an unmentioned brother?) Now finally, another Tax cut so that the prez can say that he
      • Trust me when I say. This has NOTHING to do with being an American. We are APPAULED by 100% of the shit that is going on here in office. The opposition here in the US is HUGE,..

        61% still have a linking for that cokehead turned emperor.


        I need to get the hell off this continent.

        As a native Central American, I'm insulted. Our part of the continent still rocks! Just cuz you stole the name doesn't mean you annexed us;-) Btw, I'm moving back there next week. Really.

      • Getting off continents (Score:4, Funny)

        by reality-bytes ( 119275 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:46AM (#6138187) Homepage
        Hello my sane-minded American friend, I too am attempting to effect an escape from the U.K. into Europe. (I don't enjoy my country following the Bush administration round like a dog on heat).

        Now I haven't quite formulated a plan for escape yet but needless to say, I hope to use GPS for navigation en route.

        Rumour has it that this may have been tried before, there is even talk of a tunnel having been built between the U.K and Europe!

        :P
        • haha, you're stupid, get out of my country.
          Blair following Bush, they agreed ON ONE THING!!! how is he following him, are you stupid? yes, yes you are.

          and you know what the best thing is, Bush is now using Blair's steps to peace between Israel and Palestine... and nobody mention a thing.. and who's copying WHO.
          • One thing that happened to be dragging our armed forces into a war.

            Obviously thats only a little 'one' thing.
          • Blair following Bush, they agreed ON ONE THING!!! how is he following him, are you stupid? yes, yes you are.

            If only it were. Blair's government undermined a common EU response to the American refusal to deal with the ICC. Blair is busy undermining a common EU position on the import of GM foods and hormone-treated meat. He refuses to confront the US on its illegal steel and agriculture tariffs or the huge subsidies it has been paying to the airline industry. He is in the process of allowing American medi

      • Don't sweat it too much. The powers that be have grown very accustomed to power, and I strongly suspect the strongest fear they have is losing it.

        The problem is the economy...we don't have the rest of the world depending on us anymore. Thanks to all the jobs exporting programs, we have a lot of our own technology people unemployed. We have ex-aerospace engineers working as countermen at Radio Shack. And as Greeters in Wal-Mart. I know this as fact. I worked along side of them.

        Methinks we are really

    • Re:Unless US blows it up.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bad_fx ( 493443 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:11AM (#6138131) Journal
      You know, reading that article, I was ready to post that the program didn't really include "blowing them up." But then re-reading the following part... well hell, it could very well include blowing them up. Geez:

      The program will include two components: the Counter Communication System, designed to disrupt other nations' communication networks from space; and the Counter Surveillance Reconnaissance System, formed to prevent other countries from using advanced intelligence-gathering technology in air or space.

      • Unwise.... (Score:2, Insightful)

        by reality-bytes ( 119275 )
        Actually 'blowing-up' foreign countries equipment deliberately would be likely construed as a declaration of war.
        This would especially be the case between certain 'western' countries.

    • US cant jam Galileo (Score:5, Informative)

      by ghoul ( 157158 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:12AM (#6138135)
      One of the cleverest things the Galileo designers have come up with is to put their signal right in the middle of the US military GPS signal with an encrypted overlay. This means if in times of war the US tries to jam Galileo they jam their own military GPS and everyone is back to square one with civilian grade GPS which in any case everyone upto a Taxi driver has
    • I think you're thinking of China...

      but as for strongest military, that would be USA by a nose.

      Pity we don't have The Spiders [e-sheep.com] yet.
      • "the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."-- Samuel P. Huntington

      • Re:Biggest military and economy? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Yeah, China against the US would be messy. The US has much better hardware, and probably better trained troops (well apart from those that like to attack their own side, like the American gunner who tried to shoot down a British helicopter in the Gulf, prompting the pilot to punch him screaming "have you ever seen a f***ing Iraqi helicopter?"), but China has so many more soldiers.

        In terms of military spending the US is so far ahead of anybody else. China is second and the US spends 12 times as much as Ch

        • In terms of military spending the US is so far ahead of anybody else

          simply because they find it impossible to have peacefull relations with everyone else.

        • an AC wrote In terms of military spending the US is so far ahead of anybody else. China is second and the US spends 12 times as much as China does. The US spends more than the next 13 biggest militaries in the world put together (that's more than China, Russia, the UK, France, Israel, North Korea and a whole load of others combined).

          Yeah, it spins my head out that there's an organisation on the planet that spends 30 million dollars every single day.

          On the other hand, fighting china is insane not becaus
    • This would not go down to well at all.

      Oh I am sure it will go down real well at the GOP convention. Platform for a second term? Tax cuts, two more wars (Syria and Iran) and hope nobody notice continued deficits, recession and decline in influence.

      Wellcome to the Neocon world. Oderint dum metuant.

      The original idea of Galileo was a gambit to get the US to turn off the dithering that reduces the range for civilian uses. Then when the project was set for the big up or down vote the Bushies chose that week

      • The original idea of Galileo was a gambit to get the US to turn off the dithering that reduces the range for civilian uses. Then when the project was set for the big up or down vote the Bushies chose that week to start a trade war with Europe by imposing steel tarifs. So the French got their way and the decision was unexpectedly made to build it.

        That rings so true. It is exactly how things work here and explains a lot.

        I am suprised that in all the anti-French bashing the GOP has got into they have
        • Not to detract from an otherwise interesting post, but...

          you forgot the Russians in WW2, most of what they did against the Germans was without outside help. Hitler was insane enough to attack them and that alone sealed his death-warrant. They got to Berlin first.

          it was my understanding that the allies had purposely halted their advance to let the russians in first To sort-of repay them for the massive losses they incurred, they let the russians serve the death-blow

          Does anyone else remember that?
          • My reading of that part of history was that the Russians were very upset that the western allies took so long about invading in France and Italy, leaving the Russians to take their losses.

            You may well be right about the western allies going slow, but that was earlier in the war. I thought they were going pretty much at full speed at the end. As to what would have happened if the landings in France had been moved forwards, the Germans were anything other than pushovers. The Brits / Yanks ( ;-) had good
          • it was my understanding that the allies had purposely halted their advance to let the russians in first

            Absolutely not, Churchil and FDR knew that Stalin was as bad as Hitler. Stalin actually managed to kill more people over his career, something like 30 million or so.

            The US and UK slowed their advance to avoid having their supply lines overstreached. But they were trying to get there as fast as they could.

        • you forgot the Russians in WW2, most of what they did against the Germans was without outside help. Hitler was insane enough to attack them and that alone sealed his death-warrant. They got to Berlin first.

          OK they would be speaking either German or Russian...

          When you say 'you would all be speaking English', is that a comment on Slashdot spelling?

          Sorry old bean I can't understand your accent. Perhaps if you typed a little slower.

          There is this thing we have in England called a joke.

          • Sorry old bean I can't understand your accent. Perhaps if you typed a little slower.
            Are you sure you are English? The authorised version is:
            Sorry old bean I can't understand your accent. Perhaps if you typed a little louder.
            Wasn't there an episode of 'Rab C. Nesbitt' where he came to London? I never saw that one but was told that subtitles were used.
    • It would be really, really stupid for the US not to have a program for dominating space, given that it has the capability in every other theater of war, and more and more of that capability depends upon space based technology. And longtime allies can become enemies or can assist enemies (you only need a two month long memory to know that).

      Those who think the US is evil or a big ogre for this have little concept of the difference between the actuality of conflict of national interest and the non-existence o

  • How dependent is Galileo on US? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ghoul ( 157158 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:06AM (#6138123)
    Does anybody know how dependent the Galileo system will be on the US. I mean how many components will be manufactured in the states and will the states have export veto powers like it currently has on military equipment. For example when Israel wanted to sell radars to China they could not as some components were from US companies. Will the same apply to Galileo as in if the US decides some state like North Korea doesnt deserve GPS then will the Europeans be prevented from selling it ? Do note these decisions are a lot of times economic rather than related to national security. For example the states is pissed abt the russians selling Nuclear reactors to Iran not because these reactors can be used for weapons but because the contracts did not go to American companies and under current sanctions American companies cannot even subcontract for the Russians.
    Or maybe Galileo is Europes way of getting out of exactly such a situation.
    On a related note recently when India was evaluating Advanced Jet Trainers the two options were the British and the French but the French were favoured as they use no American components and are thus not hostage to American policy. India has suffered on this count earlier. India used to have a lot of Sea King helicopters produced by the British with American components but after the Nuclear tests the American prevented the British from supplying spare parts
    • I mean how many components will be manufactured in the states and will the states have export veto powers like it currently has on military equipment

      There will not be any american components in Galileo for precisely the reason you state. We are not entirely stupid here in Europe you know...

    • Re:How dependent is Galileo on US? (Score:5, Informative)

      by AlCoHoLiC ( 67938 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @08:04AM (#6138208)
      US GPS and Russion GLONASS are operated by millitary. The Galileo project should assure Europe's indepenedence. Criticism and lobbying by US makes the project even more important. Galileo will send strong political message to US goverment.

      Considerable industrial returns in manufacturing and services are expected as well. Besides free public accessible signal there will be commercial data stream modulated on basic signal. Users will pay for guaranteed availability and greater precision. AFAIK there should be also high precision signal available only to military and certain public authorities (regulation of air, sea and road transport comes to mind).

      THigh lattitude (northern Europe) coverage of GPS isn't very good. By placing satellites in orbits at a greater inclination to the equatorial plane than GPS, Galileo will achieve better coverage at high latitudes.

      • Well while it is true the Galileo system is meant to make Europe independent but what is worrying is that somehow to cut costs or maybe under political pressure US firms might be given a share of the pie thus giving the US control of the system . Also it is very imporatant that Britain is kept out of this project as they are more a part of the United States than the EU. Note how in the English media the coverage of the Mars Express focuses on British built Beagle 2. The British always try to show they are
        • IDS, the current head of the opposition in the UK, apparently floated this idea in DC just after he was elected. They thought his grip on sanity was somewhat tenuous ;-)

          IDS stands for Iain Duncan Smith or something. His idea of the UK's future is allegedly as 'Airstrip One'.

    • Re:How dependent is Galileo on US? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      knowing US quality, (I suffer it every day at work) they certainly will not use US components.
  • This is the first stage of the Galileo system reported earlier


    The next stage is to integrate components of the Eienstein system to take into account the distortion of space between signal tranmittance and reception.

    • The next stage is to integrate components of the Eienstein system to take into account the distortion of space between signal tranmittance and reception.

      Actually, I seem to remember that the GPS system does make use of general relativity for precisely this reason, because the timing signal has to be so accurate. Presumably Galileo will have to do the same thing.

  • US would like to say thanks and ... (Score:4, Funny)

    by theBunkinator ( 204351 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:42AM (#6138181)
    US would like to say thanks and has asked the Middle East & Far East Asia to install similar systems, to make it easier and cheaper in case we need to LIBERATE THE HECK OUT OF ANOTHER COUNTRY

  • Well... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Just after reading the various US vs. the rest of world discussions here ...

    I think Europe has (doesn't matter on which side you are, but this should be clear) to create new systems which are US-indipendent. Recent events show how important it is to be indipendent, in particular under an economic viewpoint. Just looking at the telco business, I heard for example a few months ago (was it here on slashdot?) that iraq is not going to use the GSM standard for cell phones.

    Having then a systems which will be in
    • AFAIK there will be seperate civilian and (encrypted) military GALLILEO signals, just as with GPS.
    • The issue with GSM [gsmworld.com] was that Qualcomm 'sponsored' a senator to do its bidding. CDMA [cdma.com] is Qualcomm's technology and they have been campaigning to get the US government to implement CDMA is Iraq. If this move does go ahead, it would be a clear indication that the US presence there is only about helping Iraq, if they happen to the US's interests. And in the case of CDMA, it would be only one company's interests. GSM is not owned by any company, but is an independent organisation establish the technology to be use
      • By the way, had I finished reading the article I linked to, it appears that GSM was chosen, over CDMA.
      • The issue with GSM was that Qualcomm 'sponsored' a senator to do its bidding.

        Darrell Issa is a congressman, not a senator. For the more part he does seem to have a much better clue with what's going on in the world than most congresscritters.

  • WAAS safety vs EGNOS safety (Score:3, Informative)

    by spike_gran ( 219938 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @10:26AM (#6138533)
    One of the great improvements that WAAS offers over standard GPS is that it lets a user compute both a position and an error limit on that position. The position is guaranteed to be accurate within the error limit. Standard GPS gives you a position, but, can't "guarantee" that the position is correct. This is why the FAA doesn't allow standard GPS to be used as the primary navigation aid on an airplane during bad visibility conditions: there is no guarantee that the plane is going to find the runway where GPS says it is.

    But when the FAA set the rules for determining how safe the error limit has to be, it pretty much guaranteed that the error limits broadcast by WAAS were going to be huge. (~30 meters) WAAS is way paranoid safe.

    It will be interesting to see if EGNOS makes the same tradeoff between safety and usability that the WAAS system did. Maybe EGNOS will choose a less stringent safety requirement, and thus end up with smaller error limits.

    Either way, both systems will probably have the same accuracy. (~1 meter)
    • ...the FAA doesn't allow standard GPS to be used as the primary navigation aid on an airplane during bad visibility conditions...

      Mmm, no. There are thousands of GPS approaches in the U.S., all of them (naturally) flyable in instrument conditions. WAAS is not required--its (eventual) use will simply lower the minimums--a lot--by providing vertical as well as horizontal guidance.

      [If you go to the WAAS websites (mostly put up by suppliers), you'll see references to "precision" approaches; a precision appro

  • More European space plans (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The EU is planing a complete space program where Galileo is only a part of:
    http://europa.eu.int/comm/space/index_en.html

    A discussion all over Europa is just ongoing. Perhaps space exploration will be included in the constitution treaty of the EU which is just under negotiation.
  • This gives no advantage to europe over the US. You can rest assured that before europe puts this into operation, the US will have developed a way to neutralize it if they every really need to. Imagine if europe had provided this service to Iraq so that Sadam could use satelite guided missiles against the US. That is not a possability our military will allow. They may let europe build it, but stopping it will be totally under US control.
  • every single article posted on slashdot as of recently has become a forum for bashing America. I believe in freedom of speech, etc, etc, etc, but this is fucking ridiculous. It's time that moderators step up to the plate, put their political bias asside and moderate these posts accordingly. The only reason that anti-american posts appear today is due to the overwhelming karma deligation by the moderators to those who share their views on america. If a war is what you snide, arrogant europeans want to st

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