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The Internet Space

The Interplanetary Internet 270

Roland Piquepaille writes "This article from SPACE.com about the Interplanetary Internet (IPN) is not science fiction. It is becoming a reality, Rich Gray reports. "The IPN would form a backbone connecting a series of hubs on or around planets, ships, and at other points in space. These hubs would provide high-capacity, high-availability Internet traffic over distances that could stretch up to hundreds of millions of miles." Gray adds that all the planets and satellites in our solar system have already Internet addresses and that NASA is already communicating with its earth-orbiting missions through its internal Deep Space Network. The rest of us will have to wait until at least 2005 when IPN-equipped satellites are launched. Check this column for more details. You also can read a previous Slashdot column on the same subject. "
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The Interplanetary Internet

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  • by pilybaby ( 638883 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:18AM (#5881432)
    I think the lag when playing HL2 with someone on Mars would be too much to take.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:19AM (#5881436)
    all the planets and satellites in our solar system have already Internet addresses

    So, whats the internet address for Uranus? http://ipn.myhomepage.ass ? or, .anus?
  • TCP is a "best effort" delivery protocol, and that's all you could hope for when latency could span minutes at a time.
  • by wfberg ( 24378 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:20AM (#5881447)
    What's with this newfangled internet? Don't they have UUCP?
    • What's with this newfangled internet? Don't they have UUCP?

      Actually, had you read the article:
      The IPN would work more like e-mail, where information would be stored and forwarded to any hub on the system.

    • by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:55AM (#5882390) Journal
      The internet is that thing your e-mail goes over after you send it to your ISP via UUCP... :-)

      Seriously though, batch networking is exactly what is needed for interplanetary networks. UUCP would fit the bill pretty well. Sure, they can hack TCP/IP to support a store-and-forward queue, but it's still a hack.
      • I imagine caching proxies will probably be popular.
        • With this kind of a delay, I don't think an inter-planetary WWW is going to even be possible. Large file-based communications would be decent.

          The anecdote about the bandwidth and delay of a vehicle full of data storage is quite right. This will be the same kind of delay, with presumably the same bandwidth.
          • A proxy pair could manage a decent system. Each basically would have to spider along pages, compress the huge cache, and send it every x hours. Or, a site could perform a "change stream" to off-planet proxies for fastest-possible updating.

            Having no engineering experience, I wonder if branch prediction and other forecasting technologies would be helpful in inter-planetary communication. After all, a CPU is desperately trying to figure out what it needs for the future to avoid the painful delays of a cache m
  • Great (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JanneM ( 7445 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:20AM (#5881452) Homepage
    "To boldly Slashdot where nobody has Slashdotted before."

    While network infrastructure will be working at lower levels, there will of course never be any kind of interactivity - expect new legal fun and games as the need to cache and bulk send stuff to local mirrors collides with steadily more draconian IP laws.
    • Data Haven? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by silmarildur ( 671071 ) <silmarildur@hotmail.com> on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:55AM (#5882400)
      I wonder what might come of this in respect to data havens, if you can evade the law on an oil rig with at least minor success, I wonder what you could do on a satellite or another planet. Also, who will control the the data flow? Some damn good encryption might be necessary.
    • So, how will this latency effect slashdot first post? :) Will there be a race to the main database, or will someone who had first post lose it when absolute time data is finally received?

      -Alex
  • Hm. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Some Woman ( 250267 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:21AM (#5881455) Journal
    There's just somethin odd about all other planets already having internet addresses. Is it just one per planet, or does each Martian get its own? I mean, one for an entire planet just doesn't seem fair, now does it?
    • Re:Hm. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rnturn ( 11092 )
      ``I mean, one for an entire planet just doesn't seem fair, now does it?''

      They'll just have to rely on NAT like the rest of us do.

      • Re:Hm. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by clarkcox3 ( 194009 ) <slashdot@clarkcox.com> on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:58AM (#5881834) Homepage
        They'll just have to rely on NAT like the rest of us do.
        That actually makes a lot of sense, have a huge router per planet, with NAT, that batches the outgoing TCP/IP packets into large (i.e. multi-gigabyte) packets, which are split back into their TCP/IP packets at the receiving end on some other planet. That way, the effects of latencies measured in hours on the actual throughput could be minimized.
      • Re:Hm. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by liquidsin ( 398151 )
        What if Mars bans NAT like Michigan did?

    • maybe by the time the IPN sats get up, we'll start seeing IPv6 around?

      nah, who'm i kidding. we'll hvae to come up with something else.
    • I mean, one for an entire planet just doesn't seem fair, now does it?
      They'll get by fine if they use IPv6.
  • GREAT (Score:5, Funny)

    by Evil Adrian ( 253301 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:21AM (#5881457) Homepage
    That's all we need, is some fifteen-year-old DDoS-ing the Hubble.
    • Re:GREAT (Score:2, Funny)

      by theflea ( 585612 )
      However, as deep space hacking targets get farther away, high latency will not provide hackers with immediate gratification. Also, authorities can prosecute the 15-year-old as an adult! (due to 3 year delivery time for his malicious payload)
  • yeah (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Phosphor3k ( 542747 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:21AM (#5881460)
    Because we have 3 probes and a Spacestation that need internet access, right?

    How about we focus on getting things out into space first, then we worry about being able to get pr0n to them?
    • Re:yeah (Score:3, Insightful)

      by multi io ( 640409 )
      How about we focus on getting things out into space first, then we worry about being able to get pr0n to them?

      Well, since most geeks don't build spacecrafts, and most space technicians don't design network protocols, we might as well work in parallel and do all at once :).

    • Re:yeah (Score:3, Funny)

      by Libor Vanek ( 248963 )
      Nope - you are completely wrong - it's not about gettin pr0n TO space but FROM space ;-)
      • the scary part is... i'm sure there's a porn czar out there that already has the cash ready to start up an orbital live sex cam...
        i mean hell .. didnt one of those boy bands go into space already?
    • Re:yeah (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Cerrian ( 545606 )
      It's more than just sharing inter-planetary pr0n.

      The communication system is a key driving factor to any spacecraft design. This is especially true for any spacecrafts not orbiting around Earth.

      The communications system drives:
      - power requirements
      - size of solar arrays
      - # of batteries
      - # of ground stations
      - mission operations
      - level of autonomy
      - antenna pointing accuracy
      - quality and quantity of scientific data
      and much more...

      In short, the comm system is a key factor in mission ri

      • Unfortunately, New Horizons and the Mars Rovers are too far along for changing the comms system. Heck, the MERs are going to launch in a month or so and are already at the Cape. JWST (yes, at L2) is still in design, so that's a possibility.
  • by Bvardi ( 620485 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:22AM (#5881468)
    Wben I tell the users in my office that their email vanished "somewhere into outer space" I might actually be telling the truth?

    Seems like both a forward-looking and very practical idea - I personally hope to see manned stations/colonies/etc within various places in the solar system in my lifetime and it might be handy to have the ability to communicate with those places.

    Mind you the scary bit would be tracking down interplanetary spammers! (The nigerian scam could become the martian scam!)
  • Squatters (Score:5, Funny)

    by Steve1952 ( 651150 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:24AM (#5881485)
    Bad news! Most of the planetary sites are occupied by squatters. For example, some snack food company is sitting on mars.com...
  • by gmuslera ( 3436 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:25AM (#5881500) Homepage Journal
    Unless something new is discovered, times for anything beyond moon will be high, at least, higher than most would wait. And, well, you know... most firewalls will reject martian packets.
  • Uranus (Score:2, Funny)

    by Max von H. ( 19283 )
    I think the White House's new domain should be uranus.gov as to limit the lag when the cowboys in charge are looking for their heads...

    Cheers,
    max
  • by redtail1 ( 603986 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:28AM (#5881547)
    You also can read a previous Slashdot column on the same subject."

    Well, that's one way to prevent 40 people from submitting "repeat post" comments...

  • by Anonymous Coward
    It's just that the latency from here and uranus is about three hours!
  • by PipianJ ( 574459 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:29AM (#5881554)
    [luser@somebox luser]$ ping -c 4 www.pathfinder.mars
    Pinging www.pathfinder.mars [178.223.52.43] with 32 bytes of data:

    Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2678674ms TTL=53
    Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2679146ms TTL=53
    Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2678608ms TTL=53
    Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2679568ms TTL=53

    Ping statistics for 178.223.52.43:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
    Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 60ms, Maximum = 183ms, Average = 114ms
    That's nearly 44 minutes round trip for light, and that's only to Mars at opposition. Imagine how long it is to Pluto at opposition. What is it that they say? It was 20-30 hours round-trip to contact Pioneer 10?
    • >Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2678674ms TTL=53
      >Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2679146ms TTL=53
      >Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2678608ms TTL=53
      >Reply from 178.223.52.43: bytes=32 time=2679568ms TTL=53
      >
      >Ping statistics for 178.223.52.43:
      >Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
      >Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
      >Minimum = 60ms, Maximum = 183ms, Average = 114ms

      Time to patch that ping utility of yours. It uses earth-rela
    • ping pathfinder.probe

      Pinging pathfinder.probe [178.223.52.43] with 32 bytes of data:
      Error: Path not found.


      -
  • by override11 ( 516715 ) <cpeterson@gts.gaineycorp.com> on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:31AM (#5881577) Homepage
    Hehe, Takes on a whole new meaning now, eh?

    Hrmm, if I ping flood the north pole will I cause global flooding? Hrmm, wonder if I can just chmod the boarders to keep terrorists out.. *grin*
    • I know you! You're the kid that hangs out at Best Buy, trying to get the computers to dial-up to the internet, even though there's obviously no phone-line connected.

      Any relation to the Judge that thought Mitnick was going to launch nukes if he had access to a typewritter?
  • by joeytsai ( 49613 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:32AM (#5881591) Homepage
    From net/ipv4/tcp_timer.c:
    /* Increase the timeout each time we retransmit. Note that
    * we do not increase the rtt estimate. rto is initialized
    * from rtt, but increases here. Jacobson (SIGCOMM 88) suggests
    * that doubling rto each time is the least we can get away with.
    * In KA9Q, Karn uses this for the first few times, and then
    * goes to quadratic. netBSD doubles, but only goes up to *64,
    * and clamps at 1 to 64 sec afterwards. Note that 120 sec is
    * defined in the protocol as the maximum possible RTT. I guess
    * we'll have to use something other than TCP to talk to the
    * University of Mars.
    *
    * PAWS allows us longer timeouts and large windows, so once
    * implemented ftp to mars will work nicely. We will have to fix
    * the 120 second clamps though!
    */
  • I imagine we should start calling the "Ansible" soon.
  • by ControlFreal ( 661231 ) <niek@nospAM.bergboer.net> on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:33AM (#5881603) Journal

    This is actually a long-term project which, in 2015 (probably 2030 in reality ;) boasts a downlink of several Tbits per day to earth.

    Check out the info here [nasa.gov].

  • by HarveyBirdman ( 627248 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:35AM (#5881621) Journal
    [BigDuud has entered chat room #marssex]

    BigDuud: Anyone here?
    (20 minutes pass)
    BarsoomGirl: Just me it seems.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BigDuud: Wassup! I'm at Tycho City, Moon. Where you at?
    (20 minutes pass)
    BarsoomGirl: Utopia Planita base, Mars.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BigDuud: Cool! Are you nekkid?
    (20 minutes pass)
    BarsoomGirl: Yes, but only under my spacesuit.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BigDuud: Bummer.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BarsoomGirl: Yeah. We had a failure in the Windows2150 installation, and it caused a pressure imbalance that blew out the mail seals. I was in the shower when it happened. I'm all wet and soapy in here.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BigDuud: How long before it's fixed?
    (20 minutes pass)
    BarsoomGirl: Who knows? They admins are downloading the patch from the Redmond Arcology, but it's suposedly 50 billion terabytes for the copyright notice alone.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BigDuud: Bummer.
    (20 minutes pass)
    BarsoomGirl: This suit has a seismic vibrator, though. ;-)
    (20 minutes pass)
    BigDuud: Wicked! So, do you have big barsooms?

    [Connection terminated. Link eclipsed by Phobos.]

  • Lots of Great uses (Score:5, Insightful)

    by flogger ( 524072 ) <non@nonegiven> on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:38AM (#5881646) Journal
    For science. Look at our data recording of various solar bodies. We have to send up a satelite to orbit the planet, say Neptune. This satelite takes its readings and can only report back to earth when there is direct lne of site. With Neptune, this doesn't happen that often. If there were a "hub" system of Interplanetary TCP/IP set up, this satelite on Neptune could send the info via Jupiter --> Mars --> Venus -->Earth.
    Now once these hubs are set up, Communications would not rely on Line of site; interplanetory travel could "talk" with mission control from anywhere on the journey.
    Some Sci-Fi:
    • Traverse 12:Mission Control, Commander Meichiko just gave birth to a fine son, Akira. ... There were some complications. Meickiko's Uterus ruptures when the placenta detatched. She's now stable. What do you reccomend?
    • Mission Control: Traverse 12. We read you. Congradulations. We are sending you the data from Commanders Meichiko's Reproductive files. From this you should be able to print out a new uterus on your HP BioJet 9800.
    • by kipsate ( 314423 )
      Neptune and Earth are in direct line of sight for the large majority of the time. Imagine: only when the sun, a Neptune moon or a planet happens to be in the way, the line of sight is blocked. Does not happen that much.

      Your suggestion of sending the signal through Jupiter - Mars - "Venus" (useless as it is closer to the sun than Earth) to Earth will not work, since planets rotate around the sun and will almost never be lined up such that they can be effectively used as communication hubs.

  • HUH? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Parsa ( 525963 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:44AM (#5881690) Homepage
    These uninhabited planets are getting high speed backbones? I can't get anything more than dial up where I live!

    J
  • I can just see it now. Sitting on Pluto minding my own business then I see I've got mail saying "Important Information about your Cess Pit" . Means we are going to come up with a totally new set of laws for spam and tele-marketers

    Rus
  • One thing Sci-Fi writers have left out when talking about spending prolonged periods in space has been access to good pr0n. Of course, for that they need newsgroup access!
  • by splerdu ( 187709 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:53AM (#5881789)
    Perhaps with IP addresses being allocated to far remote locations the government will allocate more funding to quantum research?

    Traditional methods of broadcast certainly won't be very useful over distances where light will take minutes to travel. Unless we make rapid advances and make quantum teleportation of electronic data possible, the email of today may become the snailmail of future generations.
    • Unfortunately even the transmission of information by quantum teleportation is limited by the speed of light. Unless you are thinking of quantum tunneling which allows stuff to go faster than light, but kind of needs a solid barrier between the source and destination. There are some alternates, but they would probably require the same amount technological as warp drive.
      • This stuff about quantum teleportation allowing particles to travel faster than light, but unable to carry information faster than light confuses me to know end. If the particle arrives at all, why couldn't that be the information in itself. Sort of like morse code...it's either there or its not. Although as I understand it, it could be there and not there at the same time.

        Anyone care to explain why quantum teleportation is unable to carry information?
  • IP laws? (Score:3, Funny)

    by mattkime ( 8466 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:55AM (#5881812)
    how can other plants get internet if thy don't have IP laws yet?
  • IPv4 (Score:3, Funny)

    by prmths ( 325452 ) <prmths.f00@org> on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:59AM (#5881848) Homepage
    I sure as hell hope they dont plan on using IPv4 ...
    on a side note...
    maybe a zero latency network using the spin of quarks as the bits ;)
    now the hard part -- isolating and seperating matching quarks amd keeping them from phasing out of existance..

    not to mention something to accurately detect the spin

    ok
    maybe i'm full of sh*t .. but wouldnt that be trippy?
    sending data instantaneously regardless of distance...

    who knows.. maybe another hundred years or two and we'll be able to instantaneously be able to phase matter in and out of 'existance' in any position in our 4d space-time at will by tapping into all 11 dimentions...
  • by Jaguar777 ( 189036 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @10:59AM (#5881849) Journal
    This brings a whole new meaning to A/S/L
  • by Lawrence_Bird ( 67278 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:01AM (#5881874) Homepage
    Pinging www.yahoo.akadns.net [64.58.76.226] with 32 bytes of data:

    Reply from 64.58.76.226: bytes=32 time=300000ms TTL=245

  • Great (Score:3, Funny)

    by Dark Lord Seth ( 584963 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:02AM (#5881897) Journal

    Like we do not already have a shortage of IP adresses for one planet already. Screw IPv6, we need IPv8 now instead to deal with this! 1,3407807929942597099574024998206e+154 IP adresses ought to be enough for ever space ship, space station and coffee machine in the future! (Don't quote me on that in 20 years, PLEASE!!!)

    • Re:Great (Score:3, Funny)

      by prmths ( 325452 )
      May 5, 2023:

      And here's a quote from 'dark lord seth' from 20 years ago:
      "Like we do not already have a shortage of IP adresses for one planet already. Screw IPv6, we need IPv8 now instead to deal with this! 1,3407807929942597099574024998206e+154 IP adresses ought to be enough for ever space ship, space station and coffee machine in the future!"

      little did he know that by the year 2015, everything manufactured would be made of net-connected nano-machines; each with its own address and automatically replaces
    • Actually a 256-bit address header is probably sufficient - it's nearly enough to assign an IP per atom in the universe. Of course, you may decide you need to address things on a quantum level, so best to go to a 272-bit header and be done with it.

      A 512-bit header is just massive overkill... unless, of course, you're talking about interfacing between parallel universes.
  • internet? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kipsate ( 314423 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:06AM (#5881931)
    It is nice that NASA is developing a communication protocol for use in their missions. It seems to have some advantages: only low-power transmitters are needed on space crafts if you have a retransmitting satellite hub around. (This is in fact done already - in missions that use a lander, the part of the ship that stays in orbit retransmit signals of the lander). Using a standardized protocol, the hubs can be used for many missions, even simultaneously.

    I wish the article on space.com had focussed on this a bit more instead of popularising it by mentioning Vint Cerf and the Internet. Everyone will realize that the infrastructure is not connected to the Internet (imagine - hacked satellite, DoS attacks). Also, the protocol, which can handle large delays, will have significant differences to regular TCP/IP.

    Also, I'd like to know how to NASA will solve a few problems that jump to mind. The communication hubs are only useful if they are close to the sending spacecraft. The hubs can not be put halfway earth and a planet, because of the planets rotation around the sun. So the hub would have to circle around a planet in order for future missions to that particular planet can use it.

    But then NASA faces the following problems: on planets with an atmosphere, the hubs will tend to fall to the surface, so in many cases they need fuel to keep their altitude.

    Secondly, the hub will only be visible from one side of the planet at the time.

    Thirdly, the hub needs power, where to get it from for an extended period of time? Or are the hubs only short lived? In that case, why bother at all?

  • The link to my column about "The Interplanetary Internet" is http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2003/05/05.html, and not http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2003/05/04.html, which refers to another story. Sorry about the mistake. If Hemos or another member of the editorial committee of Slashdot reads this, please apply the correction. Many thanks in advance. Roland Piquepaille.
  • by sstory ( 538486 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:23AM (#5882102) Homepage
    The ping time to Venus SUX
  • by Mikey-San ( 582838 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:37AM (#5882245) Homepage Journal
    The first detection of intelligent extraterrestrial life will be an unpassworded AirPort Base Station called "androme2135".
  • Btw, the IP address to that one military satellitwe, the one armed with nuclear missiles, yea, that one. The IP address is 127.1.34.46 Have fun!
  • by goodchef ( 213729 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @11:52AM (#5882367) Journal
    martian n. A packet sent on a TCP/IP network with a source address of the test loopback interface [127.0.0.1]. This means that it will come back labeled with a source address that is clearly not of this earth. "The domain server is getting lots of packets from Mars. Does that gateway have a martian filter?"

    Guess we'll have to change that one once IPN is a reality...

  • I've been waiting for some off-planet colo space to start my gambling and pr0n server farm. Try to stop me now, you damn lawyers and politicians!
  • For all the whining about latency times, I don't see anyone looking for solutions! Check this out:
    Quantum Networking. By using photons with quantum entanglement, it's possible to transmit data from Earth to Mars with nearly no latency.

    Of course, we need a few good engineers to make it practical...
    • By using photons with quantum entanglement, it's possible to transmit data from Earth to Mars with nearly no latency.

      hm. From what I've read about quantum entanglement, there would actually be NO latency; what happens with one particle would happen to the entangled particle at EXACTLY the same time.

      And yes, researchers ARE trying to get entanglement to work better (or work at all), but there's obviously no use (yet) in talking about basing an entire planetary-system network on entanglement when there are

  • by paiute ( 550198 ) on Monday May 05, 2003 @12:20PM (#5882641)
    4LL tH353 WORLds @re YOUr5--3xcEPt EUrOP4. 4++3MPt n0 L4NdINg5 THerE

  • GREETINGS EARTHLING,
    I HAVE AN IMPORTANT BUSINESS PROPOSITION FOR YOU. SHORTLY BEFORE THE MOST RECENT MARTIAN CIVIL WAR, I HAD 37,000,000 (37 MILLION) MARTIAN GORANS SITTING IN THE FIRST BANK OF MARS. HOWEVER, NOW THAT THE BLUE THARK HAVE TAKEN OVER THE MARTIAN GOVERNMENT, I HAVE NO WAY OF GETTING MY MONEY OIFF THE PLANET.

    PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH YOUR BANK ACCOUNT NUMBER SO I CAN TRANSFER THE FUNDS TO EARTH, AND I WILL BE GIVE YOU HALF THE 37 MILLION GORANS, WHICH IS WORTH OVER 50,000,000 (50 MILLION) OF YOUR EARTH DOLLARS. YOUR IMMEDIATE ATTENTION AND DISCRETION IN THIS MATTER IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.

    - GENERAL GURLAK ZORGOFF

  • One gets the impression from the blurb that each planet gets an Internet address...

    Wouldn't a Planetary NAT box be a bit too much of a hack?

    Maybe it's just the wording...

  • They can get an internet connection to Pluto, but Charter Pipeline still can't get 1.5m/1.0m to my fucking house.

    monopolies are great.

  • I'm already reworking my mail routing, to take out anything from the Vega star-system.

    You haven't seen SPAM lords until you've been to Vega.

  • I am afraid this will introduce latencies remniscent of RFC 1149 [ietf.org].

    64 bytes from 10.0.3.1: icmp_seq=0 ttl=255 time=6165731.1 ms...

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