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Space Science

Earth to...Earth? Are you there? 178

jasamaman writes "So far all the planets found outside our solar system have been gas giants. So they are not habitable, and couldn't really hold life as we know it. But "planet hunter" David Charbonneau is looking for another planet just like Earth, and claims that astronomers are "very close"."
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Earth to...Earth? Are you there?

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  • by red5 ( 51324 ) <gired5@gm a i l.com> on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:25AM (#3276039) Homepage Journal
    How the hell could he know that we are "very close" to discovering anything?
    Did miss cleo tell him?
    • And he's very thin on the details (atleast in this interview). This doesn't tell anyone anything, basically.

      Well, the world now knows he likes brewing beer and put out to sea in his canoe. Hey, if he has sex in it, it's Miller time! :-P

      • by Anonymous Coward
        "Well, the world now knows he likes brewing beer and put out to sea in his canoe. Hey, if he has sex in it, it's Miller time!"

        Is that the old 'f*cking close to water' joke I see before me? Why, I think it is. Subtle one.

        Completely ruined by me now though, sorry.
    • by seizer ( 16950 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:30AM (#3276048) Homepage
      He "knows" he's very close, because he *knows* his research budget might be cut soon ;-)

      (just conjecture, btw)
    • And not even very close:

      PQ: How long will it be before scientists might be able to study the atmospheres of Earth-like planets around other stars?

      Charbonneau: That's much more difficult. We are close to being able to find Earth-like planets. But it may be decades before we are able to study their atmospheres.

      Just close. How close? Well, if you're used to measuring distances in parsecs, 'close' can be quite a bit away, especially as the lad seems fairly young yet. He'll have plenty of time to paddle around, swigging brewskis and gazing at the sky. Good luck to him, I say!

      • by CrazyDwarf ( 529428 ) <michael.rodman@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @10:31AM (#3276573) Homepage
        I'm glad you posted the section you did here, as I didn't remember his exact words (and I can sometimes be a stickler for comparing what he said to what people think he said.) It says, "We are close to being able to find Earth-like planets." He doesn't say we're close to finding one, just that we're close to being able to find one. That's quite a big difference, especially when you consider that space is mostly empty. It could be 20 years after we are able to find one that we actually do.

        Just to kind of explain that to some of our slower readers... and this is in no way accurate, but just an example to help understand... if putting a coke bottle on the end of a telescope enables us to detect Earth-like planets, then we still have to search the skies with that telescope. That could take a long time, with the vastness of space.
        • Umm, forgive me if there's something I'm missing, but isn't it just as much shooting in the dark to say that we'll soon have the ability to detect something?

          I mean, it's one thing to say that ``We will soon have what -may- allow us to detect Earth-like planets'', but can we really say that technology X will give us that ability until we actually detect such a planet with that specific technology?

          While he's not saying that we'll find another habitable planet soon, it's still not a major statement, or really a valid claim. And it won't be until we actually -do- find one.
          • First a link to an interview (in German) [heise.de] with Michel Mayor, one of the team who did discover the first extra-solar planet in 1995.

            In it Mayor says (my translation) "In 1995 the chances of finding an exoplanet were very small." And still he did. There is no guarantee to find an earth-sized exoplanet ever, but it is quite possible to find one within a year of being able to - or less.

            And no, it is absolutely not "shooting in the dark" to say that we'll soon have the ability to detect earth size planets. If these devices work, we can find them if they are there. Just like we were able to find exoplanets in the mid-90's after developing the tools to do so, and just like we actually did.

    • If you read the article, you'd realize that we don't have the technology to detect earth-like planets. The article basically states that we'll soon have the capability. Just like we currrently have the capability to detect huge gaseous planets.
      • Too bad the submitter/editor didn't catch the distinction before writing the story. Why can't readers mod stories on slashdot, so we can get rid of misleading crap like this one? This kind of sensationalist recontextualizing really undermines the integrity of the site, imo.
    • Re:How dose he know? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Perdo ( 151843 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @08:00AM (#3276110) Homepage Journal
      Seems like the technology required to find planets will be in the reach of amateurs soon. So there will be many more "eyes" looking for planets. Or the technology is becoming sufficiently mature that we will be able to detect smaller rocky bodies. Or he is about to launch a distributed computing project to analyze the visible signatures of every visible star for the wobble caused by planet motion.

      Right now, we could not detect our solar systems planets. There are 9 planets exerting their own oscillation into the sun's wobble. Perhaps he cannot do it now, but he knows what it would take to get there. Two years ago we all laughed and joked about IBM's process that would allow 5ghz machines. We all said "whatever, how the hell do they know, vaporware" Now we have seen 5 Ghz machines demonstrated, overclockers are hitting 3 Ghz easily and you should try not to discredit a geek in his field if you are out of yours.
      • I think his point is that he is really just guessing.

        You can't know you are very close to something unless you've done it before. I drive to work so I know when I am very close to work. We haven't found another planet like ours so how can he say we are close to finding another if he doesn't even know if one exists?

        He's not trying to discredit, as I'm sure he is a very smart person, however that claim is poorly worded (unless of course he does know of another planet that noone else does).
        • If our cosmological understanding is correct in the process of star formation, there are few variables that must be met before rocky inner system planets form. One of those is supernovas that happened close enough to actually get the heavier elements that these planets are formed from. I understand that supernovas leave shells behind after the initial catostrophic event but how long after said event are supernovas detectable?
    • > How the hell could he know that we are "very
      > close" to discovering anything?

      I could have sworn I read an article over a year ago where an Earth-type planet was found.

    • I think he's talking about the technology needed to find those planets. Currently, we've only been able to find gas giants because that's all our technology can handle; we notice them passing in front of stars or something. When the technology become available so that we are able to notice earth-sized planets passing in front of stars at great distances, then we'll discover that type of planet. If we are close to the technology, we are close to the final objective.
      • There are two main techniques used to find extrasolar planets.

        1) The 'wobble' method. A planet in orbit around a star causes that star to counter rotate around the common centre of gravity. This only works for massive close in planets, but it will work for any orientation.

        2) The eclipse method. A planet in orbit around the star will, if the orientation is right, periodically go between the star and us. This is obviously much more rare, but will detect any sized planet. This is how HD 209458's planet was detected.

    • Actually, the article quotes him as saying "We are close to being able to find Earth-like planets", not that we are close to finding one. The actual quote is a lot easier to make an educated guess about. We can figure out that we need X telescope resolution, Y processing technology, Z other technology and/or techniquest, and we have X-n telescope resolution, etc, and we can more-or-less reasonably project how long it will take us to get to n amount of technology. Thus we can make a reasonably educated guess as to how long it will take us to have the technology to actually find such planets.
    • Close to discovering a planet sounds very much to me like close to being pregnant. Either you are or you aren't. Either you've discovered such a planet, or you haven't.

      Also, note the correct spelling of "does".
    • by emptybody ( 12341 )
      he says that they are close to 'being able to discover' earthlike planets. He did not say that they were close to making the actual discovery.

      C'mon people. Work on your reading comprehension.
    • god, it's too early for me, when I read the title to this article, this was what I thought

      bash-2.05# ping localhost
      PING localhost (127.0.0.1): 56 data bytes
      64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=0 ttl=255 time=0.246 ms
      64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.208 ms
      64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=0.214 ms
      64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=3 ttl=255 time=0.207 ms
      --- localhost ping statistics ---
      4 packets transmitted, 4 packets received, 0% packet loss
      round-trip min/avg/max = 0.207/0.218/0.246 ms
  • by Mattygfunk ( 517948 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:30AM (#3276046) Homepage
    But the detection of those elusive, small Earth-like worlds may be closer than you think......

    I see the pointy that any further information about space (even out of our solar system) is useful, but what would we do if we found an earth-like planet?

    It is expensive and time consuming to send a probe to Mars, would we really want to investigate this far off planet before we properly explore our own solar system? And put the money in when the results may only come back years after we are all dead? Nope.

    • Actually, I could imagine us spending more money on getting to another Earth-like planet, before exploring all of this system, due to our history of not even knowing our own backyard before criticizing our neighbors habits.

      What do we know about the deep oceans so far? We always find new nifty things at home (e.g. organisms that live in zones that would be toxic to us), haven't even figured out how to keep the planet's population happy, but still spend megabucks to fly into space.

      So, yes, of course we're going to another planet - the grass may be greener there...

    • > I see the pointy that any further information about space (even out of our solar
      > system) is useful, but what would we do if we found an earth-like planet?

      I'm not sure you grasp well the importance of the study of extra-solar star systems.
      If I'm mistaken, my apologies, yet I'll try to refresh everyone's mind:

      The difficulty in this field of Astrophysics (the birth of the Solar System) is not so much in finding a decent model, but rather in feeding the right parameters to the model.
      At the moment, we have but one well-studied example of a star system, and it happens to be ours. This is not good enough for statistics, we *need* at least another one. :)

      Many problems remain unanswered, such as the stability of the orbit of the Earth through the ages, and its remaining in the "Liquid Water Belt" around the Sun (even taking into account some retroactions with the GreenHouse effect cycles).

      The models currently used have been tweaked to fit our only example, but remember that one of the first planet discovered couldn't even *exist* there according to the then current model (too big, too close, too fast. WTF is it doing here ? Back to the chalkboard, fellows...). Outside H2G2, that means the model has to be changed.

      The more systems we find and study, the more we learn about our own system. Some of those will be very young ones, some will be older, and some of these two kinds may look even a bit like ours did (and will do), giving us some answers as to our past, and our future.

      I'm a bit myopic, so I'll let you guys peek endlessly in the night. I'll tend the bar for you in the meantime.
    • I mean aren't u ever pissed b/c somebody said the same thing 10 years ago and now u have a problem?
  • by Cally ( 10873 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:31AM (#3276050) Homepage
    People have been looking for microlensing events caused by IIRC the transit that yielded the first atmosheric compostition numbers, last year, had already been found by the parallax ("wobbly star") method used to find 99% of other known extra-solar planets. The orbital plane was already known to be in line with us, and indeed the event's timing was predicted using the wobbling parent star. The point is that this technique (which is really a hack in the original sense) is only any use in those rare cases where the orbital plane intersects line of sight from the parent star to earth. Calculation of the percentage of orbits for which this is true is left as an exercise for the reader (cos I haven't the maths ;) [Source: Astronomy [astronomy.com] magazine.)

    • (cos I haven't the maths ;)

      Being off-topic is a sin and methinks you just went off at a tangent.

      (There should be a new moderation; "-1, Really bad pun" ;)

    • You get one point for "microlensing," one point for "parallax/wobbly star" and one point for IIRC.

      Can I have mod points now?
    • I'm currently reading Patrick Moore's On Mars which includes a brief history of the scientific study of Mars. I was astounded to discover that up until 1965, when Mariner 4 flew by, scientists expected there to be vegetation on Mars. Even the existence of the canals was still being debated by the scientific community up until the 1940's and 50's. And yet in interstellar terms Mars and Earth are practically in the same place. So, I'm a little skeptical towards our finding of extra-solar planets. It could be that the way that we're interpreting the 'wobbliness' of stars today may be as incorrect as the way we misinterpreted areography before Mariner 4.
    • A small correction - most of the planets have been found by Doppler reflex motion of the parent star, not by the star's parallax. They're two VERY different methods.

      Parallax determines the presence of an undetectable massive companion by the sinusoidal proper motion of the star system over a course of a few years. On the ground, you can do this for only a dozen of the closest stars (10 parsecs) or so.

      Doppler reflex motion detects the companion by the Doppler shift in spectral lines in the parent star's spectrum as the planet/star orbit about their mutual centre of gravity. You can do this out to 100 parsecs or so.

      HD209458 was a candidate from the Butler and Marcy Doppler survey that had a high inclination (edge-on) orbit. Brown and Charbonneau then did photometry to get the transit of the planet across the star's disk. Parallax did not come into it.

      Dr Fish

  • by Gopher971 ( 219910 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:33AM (#3276057) Journal
    Until the launch of "Darwin" by the ESA, [esrin.esa.it] (pdf link) it is unlikely that we will be able to detect earth-like planets. We still cannot detect Jupiter sized worlds at this point in time.
    • Actually there are several satellites (COROT [astrsp-mrs.fr] from France, Kepler [nasa.gov] from NASA) which will measure the variations brightness of stars. They will be able to look at several stars at once, and will be sensitive enough to detect an earth size planet moving in front of the star. Of course this requires systems where earth size planets appear to move infront of the star. These missions will not be able to directly detect earths (as Darwin and TPF [nasa.gov]) will, but they will let us know they are there and they will be launching in the 2005 timeframe rather thans 2010 or beyond.
      • The Kepler is able to measure the brightness of stars and infer from their brightness the size of planet circling the star. This cannot determine whether or not the planet is earth-like. It does not provide enough information.

        The Darwin project will use the 'nulling interferometry' technique which not only detects planets circling the star, it will determine whether or not the planet is within the biosphere of the star and the chemical composition of it's atmosphere, if any.

        With a huge amount of luck we might be able to detect an earth sized planet at the moment but not an earth-like planet.
    • If by detect, you mean directly observe the planets themselves, then this is true. However, there have been a number of Jupiter-sized and even significantly smaller planets detected by their gravitational influence on their parent star.

      http://www.obspm.fr/encycl/catalog.html
  • Ofcourse he's not trying to read the future from stars (lousy pun intended) here, but as I understood it, he's visioning that the technology in the near future makes it possible to find and analyze Earth-like planets "out there".

    At the moment Hubble's visual resolution is great, but way too limited to analyze any distant planets the size of ours very far away.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:34AM (#3276061)
    The sun of our solar system contains more than 99,9% of its mass. Of the remaining 0,1%, most is of the megaplanets like Jupiter and Saturn. Jupiter alone has around 500 times the mass of Earth. Habitable plants are thus incredibly, incredibly small compared to their suns or compared to gas giants. Given the limited funding (forget space, we need missile defense!) we can be happy that we can detect gas giants.
    • >>Habitable plants are thus incredibly, incredibly small compared to their suns or compared to gas giants.

      Inherent in his (and your) position is that gas giants are incapable of supporting life. We have a sample of 1 in a population of an almost infinite number of stars. How arrogant to believe that life MUST take on the form we are familiar with, based on such a limited sample.

      When did science become so myopic?
    • Given the limited funding (forget space, we need missile defense!)

      This is a very poor observation. It's more like, "let's re-evaluate how much we are funding space, especially as our education system is crumbling, and decent health care not available to over 20% of our population". Space research should not be forgotten, but let's remember that gobs of money for space research is not a God give right, nor is it anywhere near the most important line item in our countries budget.
  • by marijne ( 536748 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:36AM (#3276063)
    well, we do need some place to evacuate to if the Vogons come to buildt an interstellar bypass and destroy the earth in the process.
    Lets find 42 alternative planets earth
  • We're close? You can't just ignore the fact that earth like planets are 10000 times harder to find, simply because they're 10000 times smaller than the gas giants. The truth is that our telelscopes just aren't there yet. The only proof they'll find will be inferrable from what they can see. For example, if large planet's movement is regularly affected in such a way as to suggest a smaller planet's interferance. At this point and time we do not have either the tools or the technizques that we'll need to identify distant planets, all we can hope for is that a few shots in the dark will pay off.
  • by theolein ( 316044 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:50AM (#3276088) Journal
    have recently determined that amino acids (protein building block molecules) are formed in a vacuum which would perhaps mean that most life would be formed on the same basis as we are, perhaps it would be easier to look for old radio transmissions and TV-signals as SETI does. Have the people at SETI ever done any modelling to see what our old TV-signals would look like 10 light years from earth?

    Another thing that might be vital to life on earth might simply be the fact that we have such a large moon acting as both a shield to a lot of asteroidal bombardment and as a planetary motor for tides ,winds and life in general.
    • Well, taken that 10 light years is equal to 94.608e+15 meters (94.608e12 km), then you have a pretty far way to go. The signal transmitted from the distant planet was, let us assume 10 kW, which is a lot. But let us assume they have a foggy atmosphere and need this to get everybody signal (OK, let us assume as well they dont have cable...). They are transmitting isotropically and we have a 40 dB gain antenna looking into the skies (not too shabby). Then the signal power received on earth would be Pr = Pt*Gt*Gr*(Lambda)^2/(4*pi*R)^2. Substituting these, (Pt = 10000, Gt = 1, Gr = 10000, Lambda = 3e8/500e6 assuming a 500MHz transmission, R = the big number), Pt = 2.5470e-029 Watt. You can only detect this kind of power in Startrek Movies...
    • recently determined that amino acids are formed in a vacuum

      Now that is impressive! Guess we can throw away that whole conservation of matter thing. Maybe you meant that amino acids can be formed in a methane environment, but seeing that news is over 40 years old, you must be talking about some other "recent" discovery.
      • Older Article (Score:4, Informative)

        by Valdrax ( 32670 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @10:51AM (#3276685)
        Actually, he's referring to this [slashdot.org] older Slashdot article, which you must've not read.

        Now whether this formed in a vacuum or not is a technicality. The scientists shone high level of UV light on a chunk of ice containing ammonia and methyl alchohol at a temperature of 4K and found traces of 3 amino acids had formed. The amino acids themselves formed from the surrounding ice slurry which was in a vacuum, ergo "amino acids are formed in a vacuum."
  • PQ: On a personal note, what do you like to do in your spare time?
    Charbonneau: I find home beer-brewing very satisfying.


    David this one's on me!
    http://beer.trash.net/beerget.php?yourbeer=1017834 40990534471 [trash.net]

    good luck on your quest buddy.

  • by Pedrito ( 94783 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @07:58AM (#3276104)
    There are a number of ways Earth-sized planets could be discovered fairly soon (within the next 5-10 years). There are several planet-finding satellites to be launched. The Hubble would also be capable of detecting an Earth-sized planet passing in front of a star.

    The real trick is finding the proper conditions. First, we need to find an extra-solar system in which Earth-sized planets exist. It's now believed that these are fairly few and far between. The reason is that a vast majority of the gas giant systems we've discovered so far have their gas giants in either really close orbits to their stars, or are highly eliptical with passes close to their stars. In these situations, Earth-like planets would likely be tossed into their stars, or more likely, tossed into open space, by the gravitational effect of the giants.

    So, what you need is giants that live fairly far out (like Jupiter and Saturn). These appear to be about 1 out of 50+ systems. So, out of this 1-2% of systems, we then need to find ones with orbital planes that are parallel to our angle of view of those systems, and catch the Earth-sized planets passing in front of their stars.

    Asking for all those conditions to line up is a pretty tall order, so it's unlikely we'll catch such an event in the next 5 years. My personal opinion. A large breakthrough may change that, and that's possible as well. After all, look at the discovery of extra-solar planets. It was a breakthrough idea that led to a sudden discovery of many of these systems, without a real technilogical breakthrough.
    • The real trick is finding the proper conditions. First, we need to find an extra-solar system in which Earth-sized planets exist. It's now believed that these are fairly few and far between. The reason is that a vast majority of the gas giant systems we've discovered so far have their gas giants in either really close orbits to their stars, or are highly eliptical with passes close to their stars. In these situations, Earth-like planets would likely be tossed into their stars, or more likely, tossed into open space, by the gravitational effect of the giants.

      While you're right about the relative numbers of systems with gas giants close to the star and others that have been found, it's not quite so easy to extrapolate that to say there are therefore few systems like ours. Systems with huge gas giants close to the star are a damn sight easier to find than any other - thus the predominance of those in the present results could just be that they're easier to see!

      I'm not saying that there are a lot of systems like ours, just that we can't make that judgement yet.

    • I think any very serious attempt to look for Earth-like planets (e.g., rocky crust on the planet instead of a gas giant like most of our Outer Planets) will have to wait until future generations of space telescopes become available after 2010.

      The problem is that even with advancing telescope technology on ground-based telescopes they still can't completely overcome the refractive effects of the atmosphere, which reduces the quality of any picture taken even at high-altitude locations like Mauna Kea in Hawaii. With NASA working on the Next-Generation Space Telescope (NGST) and the European Space Agency working on something similar, we may just see after 2010 space-based telescopes with much higher resolving power than the Hubble Space Telescope; these might just be able to see fairly clearly the gas giant planet(s) orbiting nearby stars and could help deduce if there are rocky crust planets also orbiting those stars.
    • by Royster ( 16042 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @11:35AM (#3276965) Homepage
      First, we need to find an extra-solar system in which Earth-sized planets exist. It's now believed that these are fairly few and far between. The reason is that a vast majority of the gas giant systems we've discovered so far have their gas giants in either really close orbits to their stars, or are highly eliptical with passes close to their stars. In these situations, Earth-like planets would likely be tossed into their stars, or more likely, tossed into open space, by the gravitational effect of the giants.

      Oh, bullshit.

      The methods we have used until now to find extra-solar planets are extremely biased to find (a) large planets, (b) very close to the star and (c) in highly elliptical orbits. To make conclusions about the distribution of Earth-like planets from biased samples is foolhardy.

      It's as if you decided to count species by sitting in one place in the woods looking through a pair of binoculars. Sure, you would see all of the large mammals and birds that happened by, but you'd miss the vast majority of species by seeing hardly any of the incects (maybe a few fireflies if you were savvy enough to recognize them as animals) and none of the water dwelling animals. You conclusions about the distribution of species would be worthless because you saw only the easiest animals to spot.
    • First, we need to find an extra-solar system in which Earth-sized planets exist. It's now believed that these are fairly few and far between. The reason is that a vast majority of the gas giant systems we've discovered so far have their gas giants in either really close orbits to their stars, or are highly eliptical with passes close to their stars. In these situations, Earth-like planets would likely be tossed into their stars, or more likely, tossed into open space, by the gravitational effect of the giants.

      Isn't this related to the gravitational method that we are using? I mean, isn't the dopplar shift signifigantly easier to detect in the case that the large planet is nearby the star, or that its orbit is eliptical? There's plenty of stars where we *HAVEN'T* found any planets, not because they do not exist there (though they very well may not) but that they are in a configuration that does not lend itself easily detected with this method. As far as I know, it would be very difficult to detect a system exactly like ours from any signifigant distance using current methods (the gas giants are very far out, and would probably require years of constant observation as it takes forever for Jupiter, Saturn, etc to go around the sun).

      That's the biggest problems with basing any life-away-from-earth arguments on current exoplanetary data, it's very very very scewed because of the limitations of our current resources and methods. Perhaps when the Terrestrial Planet Finder [slashdot.org] comes along, we might be able to find some REAL answers about this.

      (Note: I agree fully that the systems found thusfar would not be very good for habitable planets, with the exceptions of the planets being moons of the gas giants, which does present its own unique difficulties for life).
    • Yes, the probability of any one system having an edge-on set of orbits for its planets is small. That's why a few groups are monitoring globular clusters with up to 10e6 stars in them, and are also looking toward the bulge of the Galaxy, where you get many stars in a given field of view.

      A small probability multiplied by lots of stars all at once = a reasonable chance.

      A second selection effect also helps you. All the orbits of the planets in our solar system all lie in a common plane called the ecliptic. It's a result of the conservation of angular momentum.

      So the trick is, find a star with transiting hot jupiters, then intensively monitor that system to find the smaller signals of smaller diameter earth-sized planets, as chances are that they will also transit the star's disk!

      Dr Fish
  • by mccalli ( 323026 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @08:10AM (#3276130) Homepage
    David Charbonneau is looking for another planet just like Earth, and claims that astronomers are "very close"."

    That's true. Astronomers are very close. However, where the hell all these planets are is quite another matter...

    Cheers,
    Ian

  • I wonder if we tuned into another planet's radio wave, if we'd be able to watch their soap operas. I watch soaps for 1/2 a day here on Earth, but wouldn't it be great to watch The Alien and the Cybernetic too? Or maybe we'd get to know them by watching their version of Sally Jesse Rapheal?
  • egotistic... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why does man continue to hold "human and carbon-based" life forms as the most sacred. Give me a freakin break. Statements like "life as we know it" from scientists reveals how narrow minded they are. When ever I hear some scientist express those kinds of ideas, I am embarrased to be a human. Sure we don't know what other life forms are out there, but to assume that based on the life on this planet is both assinine and ignorant. Considering all the knowledge humans have gathered for the entire history of planet earth amounts to grain of sand on the cosmic beach of the universe, scientists should think before they speak.

    • by Anonymous Coward
      1) We know how carbon based life works and develops. We have plenty of experimental evidence.
      2) We do not know how non-carbon based life works, develops or even if it is possible. We don't have experimental evidence.
      3) Developing a scientific hypothesis requires that you know what you are talking about and have at least some experimental evidence that suggests that we need another hypothesis.

      Hence, we cannot speculate on the non-carbon based life -- at least scientifically.

      • Now you're just being stupid.
        We have the information concerning Carbon based life. Therefore our hypothesis is that all life is Carbon Based. Now we have to go try to prove/disprove that. As soon as we find some life that isn't carbon based then we'll revise the hypothesis. So like you said, Developing a scientific hypothesis requires that you know what you are talking about and have at least some experimental evidence that suggests that we need another hypothesis. At the moment we don't have any evidence that suggests we need a hypothesis other than 'All life is Carbon based.' so that's our hypothesis.

        Kintanon
    • Re:egotistic... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Fyndo ( 11748 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @09:14AM (#3276268) Homepage
      What else, besides carbon are you going to base life on? Silicon is the only other thing that has a chemistry even a fraction as varied as carbon, but forms oxides too readily. We haven't ever seen large-scale organization of nuclear matter (and have pretty good theoretical arguments, why not), so it seems unlikely that there's life based on anything sub-molecular. Don't see how you'd get a stable plasma-based life form.

      if you have any plausible suggestions, by all means, make them. But till then, the only way I can see to get life is carbon-based life forms. Yeah, I could be wrong, but I'm betting on other life forms also being carbon-based. Not proof, but strikes me as a good bet.

  • Well, close but no cigar,

    Perhaps the teraforming of venus or mars would be a more practical consideration for the next 100 years.

    What the heck does it matter if we find a planet in say , we misses it surrounding Alpha Centarui, our closest stellar neighbor.

    We pretty much know there out there , law of averages dictates it. WE (earth), is not an cannot be alone in it planetary type classification, to think so would align you mental reasoning with that of the clergy in the middle ages saying the frigging sun revolved around the earth.

    So what dose it matter in the short term if there is another planet even within 20 light years, a very short distance I might add, Propulsion at near the speed of light is fantasy for at least another century. OR until artificial gravity can be harnessed (no not for propulsion but for keeping the people inside from turning to goooo on acceleration a deceleration), add to that the fact space isnt a vacum, a craft travelling at NOV (near optic velocities) well lets say there are more issues than you can imagine if you havent studied the problem.

    So, what are we left with ?

    Venus and Mars, mars is cold and dry. May be a little watter but its still going to be cold , rocord equator temperatures are not even comfy, there isnt enough CO2 at the caps to produce an atmosphere of enough density for a greenhouse effect to occur.

    SO we have venus, wet, HOT as hell and very active. Remeber the percipitation experiments in chemistry class ? How about coming up with a plan to do just tha to the sulfur in the atmosphere ? Man what I wouldnt give to have about 2 liters of venutian atmosphere to play with. Now granted even after it would take some time for the planet to cool even after reduced its atmosphere. And the place would forever smell like rotten eggs, but more habbitable perhaps than mars, at least you have PLENTY of water, albeit bound in sulfuric acids at the moment.

    Sooo earth earth where are you ? Does it really matter ? What next drawings of what life may be like on theat planet ? (Remeber the wood carvign of the men on the moon a guy claimed to see with wings and all)

    • Perhaps the teraforming of venus or mars would be a more practical consideration for the next 100 years.

      It'd take considerably longer than 100 years to terraform either planet. And that's ignoring the little issue that we haven't even visited either one with anything but robotic probes still.

      The lack of fast space travel hampers terraforming efforts as well, since any reasonable plan involves mining the rest of the solar system for necessary components - nitrogen and ice water for Mars, who-knows-what for Venus (and Venus is further from the resources in general, although that's entirely dependant on orbital mechanics really).

      In any case, most "realistic" terraforming timelines are centuries long. And even if we had the technology to do it (we don't), there's a minor issue of finding funding for that long of a period and being able to actually come out ahead of the game after compound interest has taken it's toll (contemplate 1 trillion US dollars at even 1% interest for 500 years - it requires a 14740.30% rate of return).

      Yes, we have absolutely no way to populate another world right now either. But the incentives to go there would be considerably higher than trying to terraform a neighboring planet. If nothing else, a fly-by probe moving at a considerably fraction of c could visit a solar system ~20 light years away in under a century. If it has the right equipment it should be able to tell us if there's life on that planet. That would go a long way toward answering the "are we alone?" question.

      Of course, there's the issue with financial backing there too, and the minor nit that we have absolutely no infrastructure (particularly solar power stations) to do this either, but if you want to put an somewhat arbitrary 100 year limit on goals, then a probe flyby of a nearby earth-like planet seems more realistic to me than terraforming.
      • Except it would another 20 years to radio us and tell us what it did...
        • The sub-100 year estimate includes the response time.

          Yes, to go that far in time requires ~30% c, but that's theoretically possible with probes - acceleration gravities aren't an issue in general.
      • I disagree.
        • It'd take considerably longer than 100 years to terraform either planet.

        That statement is only correct if you assume molecular nanotechnology is not feasible. If it is feasible you can completely dismantle Venus or Mars in less than 100 years (Ref here [aeiveos.com]). If you can completely dismantle them, I would argue its highly probable that you could terraform them as well. But it makes no sense to leave the material at the bottom of gravity wells when you could use it for advanced satellites as I discuss here [aeiveos.com] for example.

  • is very very limited. It is debatable whether we know of even two examples of life. All life on earth appears to have a common ancestor and is largely identical. We might know something about artifical life, but it is very limited and highly questionable. Man, Carl Sagan should be prerequisit reading. 1977, that's when Carl Sagan and Edwin E. Salpeter wrote their famous paper of "floaters", "hunters" and "sinkers". If you havnt read it, you are not a part of the conversation. Go buy a copy of Cosmos [amazon.com] and get some humility. We're a speck of sand on a beach of stars and some among us thing we know something about life in the universe?
    • We're a speck of sand on a beach of stars and some among us think we know something about life in the universe?

      Bit defeatist, isn't it? How do you know that we don't know anything?

      I'm all for humility in science, but abject grovelling seems a bit counterproductive.

      Cheers,
      Ian

    • "Particles, Environments, and Possible Ecologies in the Jovian Atmosphere" by Carl Sagan and Edwin Salpeter, Astrophysical Journal Supplements, vol 32, 737-755, 1976.

      The eddy diffusion coefficient is estimated as a function of altitude, separately for the Jovian troposphere and mesosphere. Complex organic molecules produced by the Ly alpha photolysis of methane may possibly be the absorbers in the lower mesosphere which account for the low reflectivity of Jupiter in the near ultraviolet. The optical frequency chromophores are localized at or just below the Jovian tropopause. Candidate chromophore molecules must satisfy the condition that they are produced sufficiently rapidly that convective pyrolysis maintains the observed chromophore optical depth. The condition is satisfied if complex organic chromophores are produced with high quantum yield by NH3 photolysis at less than 2,300 A. Jovian photoautotrophs in the upper troposphere satisfy this condition well, even with fast circulation,
      assuming only biochemical properties of comparable terrestrial organisms. An organism in the form of a thin, gas filled balloon can grow fast enough to replicate if (1) it can survive at the low mesospheric temperatures, or if (2) photosynthesis occurs in the troposphere.

      If anyone has access to the full paper I would love a copy.
  • How do we plan a trip to that planet? - Granted let send a Rover to find out what is what but what do we do about the RTT . There are so many what ifs and how dos in this area and finding an Earth like planet is worse than attempting to solve an NP complete problem...you dont know and i hope this dude is more closer to his find, than my brother whos playing golf on a small planet near Alpha Centauri. A2.6k
  • For some reason, that makes me think of some prominent politicians...

    Or some baddies in a SciFi series, "The Attack of the red Gas Giants!!"

  • by BreakWindows ( 442819 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @09:30AM (#3276305) Homepage
    But the detection of those elusive, small Earth-like worlds may be closer than you think

    I've seen lots of Science Fiction movies about aliens that go from planet to planet, soaking up the natural resources of each, conquering and destroying them (making them uninhabitable), and moving on. Anyone else ever think we're the aliens?

    I mean, we've already screwed up this one, and now rather than fix it (because wanting to do that makes you a "tree hugger") we're going after another. I can't say I'm against it, but it's just...creepy.

    • It is not so much that we resemble the aliens as it is that the aliens resemble us.

      Remember that the sci-fi movies about which you write were written by humans, and no doubt the authors were trying to make a point about human behavior. Since, by your admission, the activity of serially raping planets for their resources is now associated with nasty aliens in your mind, it looks like the authors have succeeded in making their point.
    • I've seen lots of Science Fiction movies about aliens that go from planet to planet, soaking up the natural resources of each, conquering and destroying them (making them uninhabitable), and moving on. Anyone else ever think we're the aliens? I mean, we've already screwed up this one, and now rather than fix it (because wanting to do that makes you a "tree hugger") we're going after another. I can't say I'm against it, but it's just...creepy.

      I'd wager that the various volcanoes erupting have casued more damage to the Earth than Humans have.

  • I dont see how you can be close to finding anything. Its like my car keys, or that odd sock. I know its in my apt someplace, but i've either found them or i haven't. Maybe i should take a hint from them, look for an exact duplicate of my car keys!

    • I dont see how you can be close to finding anything. Its like my car keys, or that odd sock. I know its in my apt someplace, but i've either found them or i haven't. Maybe i should take a hint from them, look for an exact duplicate of my car keys!


      The interview was very bad. No real interesting questions asked/answered.

      But why are at least 15 posters here nit picking about wording?

      You either HAVE found it or you HAVE not, right! And? You can not say you are clsoe to find them when you smell the bad odeur of that old sock? Its either below you or right or left or behind or in front. Make step now. Either it smells stronger and you know "I'm close to find it" or it smells weaker and you know "I WAS close to find it".

      The Astronomer just wanted to say: NOW we have the technology AND the installation base of telescopes and the interesting targets prepared that we only need the luck to be at the right time observing the right spot.

      10 Years ago, we simply lacked:
      a) the (installed, ready to use) technology
      b) the knowledge wich suns to observe

      For a):
      now we have an improved Hubbel and more sattelites and more optical (atmospheric disturbtion robust) telescopes

      For b):
      Intersting suns are found by other observations, e.g. Jupiter sized planets in circular orbits around sun like stars

      We simply now know where and how to look.

      So its realy only a matter of time and luck to find one.

      And I would bet that astronomer has a very good target in preparation and likes to observe it but does not like to disclouse it to early(what a cheering if he failed to find one ....)

      Regards,
      angel'o'sphere
  • by peter303 ( 12292 ) on Wednesday April 03, 2002 @09:49AM (#3276405)
    Power-law distributions (more smaller stuff) suggest there should be lots of earth-size planets. However the current methods can only see fast-moving larger-than-Jupiter planets. The most popular method is measure faint doppler shifts over months to years. Terrestrial pectroscopic resolution limits this to about 10x Jupiters. Space-based methods may be more sensitive.

    Another method is to look for eclipses of planets across the stars. This presumes (a) you are seeing another solar system edge-on, (b) you are lucky to catch the .0001% of time the planet is eclipsing, and (c) you aren't seeing a variable star like Algol. The US will soon launch a special telescope called Kuiper to watch one splotch of sky for five years continuously to catch planetary eclipses. Kuiper is notable for its 350 megapixel camera.

    A third method is infra-red, which can see earth-size in newly forming planetary system dust-clouds. These would be too young and unstable to have evolved intelligent life on their own, but could be colony sites.
  • What does he mean by Earth-like? A small planet with an atmosphere? With oxygen and carbon dioxide in its atmophere? With a temperature range that might permit life? With oceans and landmasses?

    By some definition of Earth-like, it wasn't long ago in geological time that Earth wasn't very Earth-like. And on the same time scale, it won't be Earth-like for long.

    The higher purpose of scientific exploration is to find something weird, not something familiar. The more unEarth-like, the better. A discovery that confirms a theory is useful but a discovery that challenges a theory is the name of the game.

  • What do you mean "life as we know it" can't exist on a gas giant. We have bacteria, tubeworms, crabs and catfish living in conditions of 1000's of atmospheres pressure and 700+ degrees Celsius temperatures at the deep ocean vents. At this pressure many gasses are supper critical and act like fluids. C02 is polar just like water and could act as a solvent for life at the right T and P. Or for that matter a gas giant might have a layer of liquid water floating on a denser gas. (remember those folks that want to compress the C02 and dump it into the oceans). If we can have a complete spectrum of life from bacteria to vertebrates living in a deep ocean rift I don't think we can claim that "life as we {commonly} know it" is a necessary condition for "life as it could be". To assume so is just scientific arrogance. Who knows what exists deeper into those vents. There are bacteria that live in the crust and smelt gold compounds for energy. There are bacteria that live in old faithful. Bacteria living in the stratosphere, the artic ice, wherever we've been. And if you ask religious folks, matter isn't even necessary for intelligent life, just energy in the right configuration. After all, that's all matter is anyway, energy in a particular configuration. The idea that intelligent life as we know it can evolve beyond matter may not be just a fairy tale. Or for that matter that intelligent life started out as nothing but an infinite amount of intelligent energy that turned a portion of that energy into the space-time-matter complex we call the cosmos. And then for reasons of it's own, put the matter in a particular configuration that we, in our limited consciousness call "life as we know it".

    Maybe they just pick who they want to talk to.

    • After all, that's all matter is anyway, energy in a particular configuration.

      maybe... or the other way round?


      Maybe they just pick who they want to talk to.

      i agree heartily to what you say, but you have to set a viewpoint to get a perspective... you are always on the right side of argument when you say "everything's relative", but you don't get anywhere with it...

      so: let them(incredibly inaccurate) pick whatever they want to... it's natural to search for familiar things in an unknown place.

      don't get me wrong, i am doing the same thing all the time. but this is what i have learned so far...
      • Well, I'll take the historical perspective of there being 3 classes of energy beings: God, Angles and Jinn. The first having a single instance and the latter two having both multiple instances and multiple species. The first two and part of the third class work in concert with certain humans to "run the works" giving us Prophets, Saints and such what. Also, knowing the chestnut "if power corrupts..." they require humans to pre-qualify themselves before making contact, hence the ethical portion of religion. Of course each religion has its statement that those who don't qualify will be misled into not believing. (for Christianity it is somewhere in Corinthians). Science, which works off the black box principle of proof is insufficient to prove the existence of an intelligent being that does not want that to occur. So while it seems silly to look light years away to see if "we are not alone" most folks won't do what is necessary to search for the First Cause. Still if you want a better explanation try the Quran. There is a lot more science in there than one would expect. You just have to get over the popular science to 600's desert Arabs aspect to analyze it.
        • oh... there's a bigger theological aspct in your point of view, than i expected... i have thought about reading the koran some time ago, but never got me through to do it...

          i think, there is plenty of knowledge in it, as well as there is in the bible... anyway, it is completely useless to the majority of "modern" humans, because nearly all of it is written in metaphors and parables... too much for mr. ordinary, i think...

          it is a pity to lose(it will get lost) its important content(how to live a proper, healthy, natural, satisfying life) just because the "medium" doesn't appeal anymore...

          whatever, we are getting off topic here...
  • It's amazing that the blurb says, "David Charbonneau is looking for another planet just like Earth, and claims that astronomers are 'very close'", since the linked article talks almost exclusively about finding massive gas giants. The only place where Earth-like planets are discussed is due to a question asked by the interviewer:
    PQ: How long will it be before scientists might be able to study the atmospheres of Earth-like planets around other stars?

    Charbonneau: That's much more difficult. We are close to being able to find Earth-like planets. But it may be decades before we are able to study their atmospheres.

    So why might he think that we are close to being able to find Earth-like planets? Maybe he read Can We Find Another Earth? [discover.com] from the March 2002 issue of Discover [discover.com] magazine. This article talks about a lens configuration developed by David Spergel of Princeton, which uses interference to block out the glare of a star along one axis, and should allow for optically resolving Earth-like planets around nearby stars.

    Chris Beckenbach

  • I have no problem with people trying to find E.T. life out there. This is cool provided that we are only "listening." I am not sure that it is a good idea to be broadcasting out into space. When sending messages out into space it is like we are saying,

    "Attention highly developed races!!! Now hear this!! Are you looking for new world's to conquer? Have you depleted all the natural resources on your homeworld? If so, why not come conquer us? We are very primitive. Still using radio and analog tranismission signals. Just follow this signal back to our homeworld."

    Now that I am on the subject. This goes for AI development too. There is a ton of cash spent each year on Articial Intelligence. Didn't anyone watch Terminator or the Matrix? Even if some computer whiz figures out AI, the best he can hope for is that he only coded himself out of a job.
    • We've been broadcasting interceptible radio and tv signals out into space for at least 70 years now, and we can't go out and stop those radio waves from continuing on. Any sufficiently advanced aliens living within ~70 light years of earth already knows about us, guaranteed.
  • I'll tell you what discovering other earth-like planets means.

    More damn Linux distributions.
  • Send Jonathan Katz to this alternate planet. Actually ask Katz about it. I'm sure he knows eactly where they all are. He knows practically everything it seems.
    • Katz bothers not with such mundane details as the location of these planets. He's more interested in the implications of the existence of such planets. He has no idea what implications those might be, but he'll definitely be sure that they will change the way we live our lives.

      Get ready for articles with words such as "Earth-centric", "Extra-terrestrial Imperialism" and "Trans-globalism"
  • shh, this planet here is one of the most habitable in the universe, but also one of the most dangerous, with sharp venomous teeth. now we're just going to sneak up on it.... oh no, it's got life forms! crikey!

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