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Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Aug 12, 2008 01:10 PM
from the and-the-yellow-phthalate-too dept.
from the and-the-yellow-phthalate-too dept.
An anonymous reader tips a guest posting up on the MAKE Magazine blog by the author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. It seems that authorities in Massachusetts have raided a home chemistry lab, apparently without a warrant, and made off with all of its contents. Here's the local article from the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. "Victor Deeb, a retired chemist who lives in Marlboro, has finally been allowed to return to his Fremont Street home, after Massachusetts authorities spent three days ransacking his basement lab and making off with its contents. Deeb is not accused of making methamphetamine or other illegal drugs. He's not accused of aiding terrorists, synthesizing explosives, nor even of making illegal fireworks. Deeb fell afoul of the Massachusetts authorities for... doing experiments... Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
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Submission: Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts? by Anonymous Coward
[+]
How Regulations Hamper Chemical Hobbyists 610 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Chemical & Engineering News just ran this story that relates how government regulations create a terribly restrictive atmosphere for people who do chemistry as a hobby. (A related story was previously posted.)" The article gives some examples of why hamfisted regulations are harmful even to those who aren't doing the chemistry themselves: "Hobby chemists will tell you that home labs have been the source of some of chemistry's greatest contributions. Charles Goodyear figured out how to vulcanize rubber with the same stove that his wife used to bake the family's bread. Charles Martin Hall discovered the economical electrochemical process for refining aluminum from its ore in a woodshed laboratory near his family home. A plaque outside Sir William Henry Perkin's Cable Street residence in London notes that the chemist 'discovered the first aniline dyestuff, March 1856, while working in his home laboratory on this site and went on to found science-based industry.'"
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Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts
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And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
These hyper-red and hyper-blue states both have issues with people. The former set of control freaks try to make you a religion borg while the latter set of control freaks try their hand making you a state-uber-alles borg.
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, how is a fascist state supposed to function if people like this guy come along and teach people how to do for themselves? Fascist states need strong corporations, and strong corporations need helpless consumers. This guy is anti-American, and the cops knew it.
How did they know? They felt it in their gut.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Informative)
The "Corporation" in the "Corporate State" is a vertical trade guild -- ie, a Syndicate. Fascism is Guild Socialism mixed with Nationalism. Mussolini started out as a Communist, as his father had been. It is NOT the same thing as a corporation in the sense which most people think.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, a Syndicate is an enterprise democratically managed by its workers.
That's actually one of many ways the word syndicate [wikipedia.org] is used...not the only one.
For example, I'm fairly sure that a crime syndicate is NOT democratically managed...
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
No the part I find most troubling is
Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home. Chemist allowed to go home, sans his lab [telegram.com]
it wasn't cop but firemen; traditionally fire fighters have held a special position and had abilities to enter buildings and perform activities that we have prohibited policeman from performing without a warrant, by doing things like this the firefighters are jeopardizing this trust and placing the ability to protect the public safety in danger.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Firefighters also have hazardous materials training, and often have to clean up what happens when hazardous materials are not handled properly. They saw something that concerned them, and they reported their concerns to someone who overreacted, but the overreaction is the sole responsibility of the State agency(s) involved, and in no way the firefighters' responsibility. There's plenty of blame to go around, let's not start flinging it indiscriminately.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
If he wants to do science with 1500 chemicals, he should rent a space in an industrial park. Then the fire department can use Fire Codes to force him to properly label and store his shit according to the appropriate guidelines.
The number of chemicals indicates nothing as far as the how hazardous his lab was.
By your logic, cooking should be limited to industrial parks as well, or even isolated bunkers, since your average pot of stew's going to be made with ingredients containing TENS OF THOUSANDS of different chemicals. What's important is not how many chemicals, but which ones, and in what quantities.
The fact that people saw fit to mod you insightful despite your display of such blatant ignorance astounds me.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a chemistry, by industry, by education and if I saw 1500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes sitting around full of chemistry stuff I'd want some authority to check it out.
If you had said
"I'm a Chemist, by training and profession and if I saw 1500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes improperly stored, full of chemicals I'd want some authority to check it out."
your troll would have been much more effective, especially if you exclude fireman with a bit of hazmat training and building inspectors from being considered an authority.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Forgetting everything else that makes this comment seem worthless like your inappropriate use of the word chemistry and quickly followed up by your note of the "chemistry stuff", I'm sure you feel that the government has every right to search every single house at least once a year to make sure nothing illegal is going on inside, and if they find something which scares them even if it isn't illegal they can take it anyway, because it is best if the government watches our for our well being. After all what other reason would the government exist for?
Go ahead mod me troll...
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a chemistry,
Are you, now. I'm a skepticism.
Parent
Re:Maybe he was just saving his own urine! (Score:5, Interesting)
None of the materials found at 81 Fremont St. posed a radiological or biological risk, according to the state Department of Environmental Protection. No mercury or poison was found. Some of the compounds are potentially explosive, but no more dangerous than typical household cleaning products.
Most people would be really pissed if the had to spend several days in a motel because the fireman found a can of Draino and a bottle of vinegar downstairs in the basement
Parent
Re:Maybe he was just saving his own urine! (Score:4, Funny)
Man, would I be pissed if I ran into that.... :-D
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
by doing things like this the firefighters are jeopardizing this trust and placing the ability to protect the public safety in danger.
I'm a volunteer fireman and I can tell you all there have been briefings from Homeland Security and other agencies about looking for suspicious materials, not all of it terrorism related. And it's not just us. Mail carriers, delivery drivers, med techs, utility crews, anyone who might be on your property or in your house on any occasional basis.
We do have to be alert for drug labs, but most of the times the cops find them first and have their own hazmat teams.
My question would be if they were working a fire in a window unit on the second floor, what were they doing in the basement?
The rules for household chemicals aren't always real clear. Sounds like the state and local officials over-reacted. Unless there's a specific regulation that covers some compound he was using, it appears like his property was seized without due process. Unless we've taken another step down the road to a police state I don't think you can just declare something looks dangerous and confiscate it. In which case I could walk into anyones garage and start seizing lawn fertilizer, gasoline, paint thinner, ammonia, insecticides and anything else you might normally have around the house. All that stuff looks dangerous to me.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
Well Richard, it seems my fellow Texans have been slacking! Let me just take a few minutes to tell you about Jesus, and the wonderful sacrifice he made for you...
Only joking, of course. I'm not from Texas.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
I live in Houston, deep in the "Bible Belt", where there is a church every half mile.
Is that all? Here in South Carolina, I really think it is a status symbol to have your own church, because there are 3 on every corner.
Parent
To finish that joke (Score:4, Funny)
And on the fourth corner, there is a bar with a sign out front that says "No loitering by order of the Pope."
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I lived in Houston for 20 years myself, and if you're getting into arguments I somehow get the feeling that *you're* the one picking fights with people who have a different belief system.
Different belief system? You mean delusional bullshit. Sorry to nitpick, but you later refer to said belief systems as bullshit yourself. And sorry, I'm not the kind of person to pick a fight, but when someone attacks my character or spouts a bunch of "Mega-Churchian" Voodoo in my face, I will vigorously defend logic and reason.
You hear a viewpoint grounded in religion or other bullshit and you just *have* to make an issue of it. But then, my college roomate was exactly like that, so maybe I'm just projecting.
Sometimes that's the case, but most of the time it's when somehow I'm targeted personally, directly or indirectly -- it's when someone spouts some "Christian" garbage and everyone else except me is wagging their heads. In that situation, for me at least, to not respond would be to let others think that you believe in the garbage being talked about -- I'm not one of those people.
jdb2
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Funny)
And Libraries!!! those amoral dens of SIN and contempt!!
[me ducks]
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, you aren't allowed to own laboratory glassware in TX without a permit from the state and inspections from the cops....
Parent
The actual law (Score:5, Informative)
You had to make me look, as I was quite surprised about that law. But here it is: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm [state.tx.us]
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and notice the intentionally vague items list. A "flask heater"? An "adapter tube"? A "transformer"?!?!
The whole idea here is apparently to make EVERYONE in TX a criminal, so that they can be charged with *something* any time the pigs want to....
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:5, Insightful)
But as long as you carry at least one gun with you at all times, then you're OK, right? And the gun rack on the back of your pickup truck scores double, I've heard...
Actually, Texas is one of only six states in the nation that bans openly carrying a firearm. In Texas, the ONLY way to legally carry a gun on your person is with a concealed carry permit. That means that in Texas, the constitutional right to bear arms is granted or not at the whim of the government.
There is a growing movement in Texas to correct this situation. An on-line petition has collected nearly 23,000 signatures and several legislators have promised to introduce a bill to join the majority of the nation and allow open carry.
It sounds like they need to go after the glassware restrictions next. Actually, what we really need to do as a nation is give up the ridiculous "war on drugs" which, to date, is the source of more civil liberties infringements than any other issue, including the "war on terror".
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:5, Funny)
An armed man can mix whatever chemicals he damn well pleases.
Well of course--it's quite hard for someone to mix chemicals if he has no arms...
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:4, Informative)
There you go. Owning these things is not a problem unless they were meant to be used in a drug lab. So if it says "for producing crystal meth" on the box, then you need a permit. Otherwise you're free to use the flask for whatever.
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup. As it was in the past, so it is today.
"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens' What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, 1957
"With the law books filled with a great assortment of crimes, a prosecutor stands a fair chance of finding at least a technical violation of some act on the part of almost anyone. In such a case, it is not a question of discovering the commission of a crime and then looking for the man who has committed it, it is a question of picking the man and then searching the law books, or putting investigators to work, to pin some offense on him."
- former Attorney General and Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, 1940
Parent
Re:The actual law (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Informative)
If you "consent to search", you've just thrown your Fourth Amedment rights down the toilet for now and forevermore. No more warrant required to search your place; you'ce already consented.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Try going to the site and _reading_ the search waiver. It includes a time limit on the search, location limitation, and specifically requires your presence for the inspection. Yes, some of these are for the convenience of the DPS (so they can arrest you), but the waiver is _not_ a waiver of all 4th amendment rights.
No doubt this is a stupid law, but it is level-headed and appropriate when compared with the vast majority of laws we manage to pass around here.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
the old myth that the R's are anti-big government or fiscally conservative is sadly outdated.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe the "leave me alone and keep government small" ppl happen to be religious types, and they get ridiculed on the latter point in order to demonize the former ideas by association. Just a thought.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Interesting)
In terms of the current rate of acceleration of this trend, according to the Washington Post: [washingtonpost.com]
...
...
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
That's true. Not all "Red-state" people are over-religious, or even religious at all. Often they share moral standards, but most often we just share a desire for the government to stay out of our lives!
Yes, we don't want government to tell us that we can't terminate our pregnancies, smoke some marijuana for our cancer, end our own lives painlessly when terminally ill, have a homosexual relationship, call the police on our crazy neighbor with the collection of assault rifles... oh, wait.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Informative)
Move to Oregon, dude. The state will actually pay for your euthenasia even when it won't pay for treatment. How advanced is THAT!!
Parent
America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, a bunch of silly fools that never took chemistry even in college are doing their best to outlaw what every intelligent child in the 60s and 70s did for fun.
As a result, the US has not been doing groundbreaking chemistry in over a decade.
Granted, computers are a big lure, but chemistry is the basis of our industry. We need to ENCOURAGE kids and adults to do chemistry, not prevent it with idiotic, foolish laws.
If it is not more dangerous than fertilizer and diesel fuel, or styrofoam and gasoline, than it should be legal for a 16 year old kid to buy in the mail, without a license.
Anythinge else is rank hipocracy and stupidity.
P.S. I am not recommending a 12 year old do explosive experiments unsupervised, but I hate to tell you, THEY DO IT ANYWAY. They just go and get an aerosole can and a lighter, instead of ordering a kit.
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
My dad took my chemistry set away when I almost blew the house up. But this 4th of july my old friend Mike's seventeen year old son showed me a brand new way of blowing stuff up; it's in one of my NSFW journals. Anyway, put a little "Works" toilet bowl cleaner in a plastic bottle, but a strip of aluminum foil in it, screw on the cap, shake it, toss it down and walk away and it waill react violently and noisily, louder than a shotgun blast.
The kids are indeed doing chemistry.
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
I very nearly got expelled in the 7th grade for an experiment with hydrogen. [slashdot.org] These days a kid who showed that kind of curiosity would be behind bars.
Parent
Let's take this completely out of context... (Score:4, Funny)
Do you propose I play with it in a balloon indoors? If I get arrested for doing something stupid, I'd feel a little better knowing my family won't get soaked in the next rainstorm because I blew the roof off the house.
The above is pretty funny, for certain values of "it"... I mean, you soaked your family? Blew the roof off the house?? Dude...
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
I was doing this as a teenager (the early 1990s) and ended up getting into a small bit of trouble over it.
Basically, as a prank, we set off about 20 of these things outside of a kids window late at night. Using 2 liter bottles they really do sound like shotgun blasts. THe smaller 16oz bottles aren't as loud but we had plenty of them mixed in as well.
Well, the kids parents didn't think this was very funny at all, and we all knew each other (these were "BBS acquantances") and we got hauled into the police station. Everyone's parents were also there.
The cops were asking how we learned to do this. I fibbed a bit and said that we learned it in chemistry class... basically HCL and metal causes an acid-metal reaction, and releases a ton of gas. The principles of acid-metal reactions are certainly well-explained in HS chemistry, and that's what I said.
One of the moms was like "WHY ARE THEY TEACHING THIS KIND OF THING IN SCHOOL?" and got all emotional about it. I continued lecturing: "actually, this is simply basic chemistry, and it is important that kids are taught this kind of thing. we chose to use this knowledge to be mischevious" blah blah blah.
A few years later we heard of kids doing the same stuff and they got in _way_ more trouble over it. Times and attitudes have changed and this kind of stuff isn't funny anymore (well, it is, but not many people who matter think so).
The happy ending of this story is that I made one more of these things for a practical project / application talk in a later HS chemistry class. The class got to go outside and watch me set one of the things off. As long as I was able to explain the chemistry sufficiently and keep the class interested in chemistry, the teacher was all for it.
My father in law's mom was a science teacher; he'd give her a list of stuff to order periodically and she'd get it for him without asking questions. He blew up the kitchen table once. Another time he set a forest on fire with a frenell lens and some magnesium. He ended up getting a Chemical Engineering degree later in life and these days is one of the foremost industry experts at what he does. Nobody ever got hurt and society is certainly better for his contributions as an adult.
It's important to let kids be kids. Curiosity is the most important thing in a child, and one reason that I'll be homeschooling my son. He's too important to let "them" ruin his future.
Parent
Second hand story time.... (Score:4, Funny)
Probably the best teacher I ever had was a Chemistry professor at the University of Washington. "Wild" Bill Zollar. Fantastic storyteller. Anyway, he was telling us about his time as an undergrad at the University of Alaska. He was majoring in Chemistry to he could graduate in time to take a trip he'd won to Hawaii. Well, he ended up being responsible for reacting left over WWII sodium metal to get rid of it. As we all know sodium metal + water = exothermic and sometimes BOOM. (This is how we knew this would be a good story.) So he and his TA are up late doing this. And the TA says "Hey want to see something cool?" So they take a chunk of sodium metal and throw it in a fountain. BOOM! Splash. Yay! So the TA says, more or less, "Ok goodnight. Have fun doing this increadibly tedious job, unsupervised, by yourself, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure nothing will go awry." So here he is with untold kgs of sodium metal, reacting little slices of it with water. There's no one to go ride bikes with, and he's a smart young man with apparently poor impulse control. So he soaks some rags in oil, and wraps up a few bricks of sodium metal. Binds them up. Puts them in his car and proceeds to drive out to the nearest dam. So he stops the car over the water, tosses the parcel off and proceeds to drive away. Nothings happening, "Mission Accomplished." Before he gets across the water a 400 foot column of flame which must have lit up his car is busy burning down some guys outhouse on the bank behind him. Of course he went on to do other things, like thermite a trolly to it's tracks outside Harvard while he was at MIT, and then all kinds of important and extremely valuable work.
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Funny)
I don't this this science stuff is going to be a problem
Apparently that grammar stuff isn't a problem anymore right now.
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:4, Insightful)
We still have model rockets.
Estes is still in business. Sure the kits are dumb downed but very few kids will take the time to build a complex model these days. I wonder how few kids these days even build balsa models.
It is just to easy to buy FSX or an airhog.
Not only that but do you know how hard it is to find a field these days?
Oh well. But then when I was a kid I had to live with the three books on airplanes or rockets they my local library had.
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:4, Insightful)
Open space is the main issue. All the places we used to fly are now golf fields and such. It is frowned upon almost anywhere unless you go out to the desert where there's nobody to care.
But it used to be you could go into any kmart and find models and tools and supplies.
I am not that old, and I remember even in the early 80's where it started to become hard to get things. Sometimes, I was not allowed to buy simple things like glue and paint without a parent (guess they thought I was going to sniff it or something).
Rockets are even harder. I am actually suprised you can still get some estes items at certain rare stores. No idea where you'd launch the suckers though. I bet I'd get a nice crowd going at the local park if I set up to launch some rockets (that is, not just one little one, but really did it like we used to with multiple large rockets, etc). until the cops showed up.
Anything truly homemade would probably get me on a list somewhere of potentially dangerous people..
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that the stupid people aren't dying anymore.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly the only solution to the Hyper red and Hyper blue is to shine a lot of Hyper white light on them. These "security and Fraidycat freaks go scattering when they have a bright light shining on them.
I really hope someone uncovers Pamela Wilderman personal information and posts it so that everyone here can voice their concerns to her on her home phone, email, work phone, cellphone as well as other Police officials that did not right away reprimand her and fire her for home invasion.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Pamela Wilderman, Secretary
Phone: (508) 460-3769
Fax: (508) 624-6504
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. The far left and the far right both have exactly the same goal: To tell others how to live their lives. They only way they differ is in how they think people's lives should be lived.
Interestingly enough, people I meet from both sides are typically keen on telling you how they think others should live, but not too keen on being told how to live themselves.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Efficient? Capitalism? Have you been spending your profits on ganja?
Look at the health insurance system in the US. Hundreds of different insurers, all with their own little bureaucracies and red-tape (ironically designed not to provide care, but to DENY it). Each has their own marketing departments and collection of overpaid executives. Every clinic and hospital in the US has to navigate this maze of bureaucracies in order to get paid, which wastes countless hours and dollars. Medicare spends 7% of its budget on overhead, whereas private insurance companies spend 15-30%. Collectively the people of the US spend as much on health care as a single-payer system would cost, and yet we have 50 million uninsured people and 18,000 die premature deaths every year due to lack of coverage. A marvel of efficiency at getting the capitalists paid, but not at healing people.
Or consider the millions of out of work people in the US. It's not that there isn't any work to be done--there's plenty of stuff that needs working on: fixing our crumbling national infrastructure, repairing levies, building mass transit systems, schools, hospitals... the list goes on. Yet none of that happens because it wouldn't be profitable for the capitalists who have all the money. Efficient at making a handful of parasites rich, but not efficient at providing necessary public services.
What about the 6 million children who die of hunger and treatable illness worldwide each and every year? UNICEF estimates it would cost $80 billion annually to feed them all--a figure that is a fifth of the US's annual military budget (and not including supplemental budgets for our wars or interest payments on those debts). The government would rather pay companies to not grow food or destroy their surpluses than to feed the hungry.
Or consider the billions of people who will never get a chance at a decent education. There could be Einsteins, Bachs and geniuses all over the world who will never be allowed to achieve their potential because capitalists are loathe to spend money on educating people any more than is required for them to work in their factories and offices.
So much human potential is squandered and so much misery is caused all in the name of profit and "efficiency." The only thing capitalism is efficient at is ruining lives and generating profits for those parasites at the top who perform no labor but reap the rewards of others' labor. Thanks, but no thanks.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
The capitalists need us to create their profits, but we don't need them.
Unfortunately, we rather do. Labour cannot labour without capital, so capital is actually a key part of adding value. After all, a workman without capital is simply unemployed.
Also, if the state can't own capital, then who can? If it's held in common, then some way of administering capital (i.e. allocating it in the best way) would have to be implemented. It could be a person (in which case you'd have a monopsonistic capitalist, fantastic) or some sort of communal administration, or a state as most people prefer to call it. In reality, the worker benefits more from competitive sale of capital (i.e. many capitalists) and from the use of price signals to assign capital (after all price is the place where people can't afford to lie).
The old myth that capital doesn't add value is based on a discredited economic theory; the labour theory of value, which states such more or less by definition. However, the LTV fails to explain observed economic facts (e.g. why does coffee cost more in a station than from the same brand 200m away?) This is why economists have switched to the marginal utility theory of value, which makes more sense a priori anyway to me.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh shut up, it's one small town's small-time comptroller, not a vast conspiracy by hyperblue states.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you're the victim of a bad article summary.
There's no problem with experimenting, the issue is how much chemicals you can store of on your site and dispose of through municipal services like trash removal and sewer without a permit.
Details in the article are a bit thin, but nobody is getting raided in Massachusetts for doing chemistry set scale stuff.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no such thing as a red or blue state. Its a media construct, that somehow became confused with a statement of truth. Look at the voting margins between Dems and Reps in any so-called Red or Blue state, and you'll be hard pressed to find a margin greater than 10%. The Red vs. Blue thing, if anything, is probably showing that people are moving more towards the middle, but this would remain invisible, since the lunatic fringes of each ideology are louder than the growing horde of moderates.
Arizona, for example, is a VERY "red" state. But... We have a Democratic governor (who strongly endorsed Obama, almost to the point of quitting to help him), and around half of our counties have very liberal tendencies. Outside of Phoenix, two out of three of our "big" cities are very Democratic.
Sadly the Electoral system isn't very good for showing diversity of opinion, which leads to both polarization and moderation being shown as "red" or "blue".
Also... Red doesn't always equal religious... Only 43% of people in Arizona described themselves as religious in the 2000 census. Not to say that the remainder are atheists, but obviously not religious wackos either.
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Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Mod points be damned - I'll ditch them to get in on this thread. There's nothing about this story that is intrinsically left- or right-leaning, despite the temptation to apply that often imaginary dichotomy to everything under the sun. It's also not some indication that both liberals and conservatives are out to destroy chemistry as we know it, violating our rights as they go along. I ask the Libertarians to at least tentatively withdraw your attack dogs. Let's examine what we know.
The meat of the case against Mr. Deeb is in this statement, which was not fully quoted in the summary because it comes from the MAKE article, which truncates it:
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws.
That's from the source article in the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. It indicates that this wasn't just some dude with a home chemistry set and a nifty hobby; Deebs was doing "research and development." This doesn't make him dangerous, but it's entirely possible that he really was violating local zoning laws. Neither the MAKE article nor the Worcester Telegram & Gazette article specifies which zoning laws were violated, nor which chemicals were involved.
So this may be a case of law enforcement overstepping its authority (and either liberalism or conservatism run amok, depending on whose adherents you think are more likely to try to convince us that chemists in basements are scary), but it may also be a case of Marlboro's "code enforcement" officers following perfectly valid (albeit annoying) zoning laws. Whether or not the laws are overly strict, I don't see anything in this article to indicate that Deeb's fundamental rights were violated ... except the bit about a lack of warrant. The MAKE article has this to say about that alleged Fourth Amendment infraction:
In effect, the Massachusetts authorities have invaded Deeb's lab, apparently without a warrant, and stolen his property. Deeb, presumably under at least the implied threat of further action, has not objected to the warrantless search and the confiscation of his property.
However, the original Worcester Telegram & Gazette article doesn't say anything about the absence of a warrant, and the MAKE article does not cite any other source. If that allegation is true, the Marlboro authorities have some explaining to do. But these sources are too limited to know for sure. I did a search on Google News and found this article [metrowestdailynews.com], which was the only one about these events that I cound find. While it also mentions that Deeb is cooperating with authorities, it doesn't mention warrants. Fourth Amendment violation? Who knows. Let's all get on with what we were doing before this "firestorm" erupted and reconvene when we have something solid and legitimate to complain about.
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Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe if you RTFA you would've seen that the issue wasn't his interest in chemistry. The problem was that they came to put a FIRE OUT and found ~1500 bottles of chemicals that could've posed a major fire hazard. This was in a residential neighborhood (e.g. close houses), not an industrial park.
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The More Things Change (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The More Things Change (Score:5, Funny)
After all, who knows when you might accidentally violate the laws of equivalent exchange and lose an arm...
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Re:The More Things Change (Score:5, Insightful)
We all do chemistry on a daily basis, the difference is that we usually don't do it as our daily plan. Brush your teeth, take a bath and even breathing. Cooking is actually an advanced version of chemistry.
The area of chemistry is so wide that it's in no way possible to ban it all. And some people are stupid enough to think that it's dangerous to create huge soap bubbles or analyze the water yourself.
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Typical (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds like the actions of typical small-minded, small-town bureaucrats who are skilled mainly in keeping and expanding their power.
Found a Picture... (Score:4, Informative)
Pretty much what you'd expect [boston.com]. Looks to be your garden variety petty bureaucrat, overly impressed by her little bit of power.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Informative)
When the officer says, "This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation," he's implying a zoning violation. It can be answered with, "This is not what we consider to be a customary neighborhood nuisance." Zoning laws should protect people from things like junk yards, car dealerships and noisy manufacturing. Going after this man is a stretch of those intentions.
It's like anti FUD with you people. He broke a zoning law. If you read the article, particularly the part where it says...
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws. "It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood," she said. "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ⦠There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
...you'd see that he had *WAY* too much stuff in his home AND was breaking the zoning laws by conducting scientific research in a residential neighborhood. I hate the government too, but what I hate more is idiots that spread half-truths. This is one of the latter cases. Print the whole story and it seems like a no brainer, but print half a story, and it feeds the no-brainers.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:4, Insightful)
What qualifies at scientific research? My brother-in-law tested the absorbency of several brands of diapers for a school project. I just want to know if the police can come after him for doing this at home.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Insightful)
It is a long-standing American tradition to run home-based businesses, invent things in home workshops, etc.
In other words, fuck off and die, you fascist!
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:4, Insightful)
What affects you or your property is not some guiding principle you can appeal to, but a term who's interpertation is up in the air. Your science experiments, if dangerous (say you are trying to find a more energy-dense fuel then gasoline), certainly can blow up my house. Why should I assume that risk? And they lower my property values certainly, because other people want to be compensated for that risk. It could raise my insurance premiums.
Suppose you paint your house day-glow orange. Well, it doesn't seem dangerous, but on the other hand, again, it lowers my property values. I have to look at an ugly eyesore (assuming I have line of sight).
What about loud music? Foul odors? Constantly having 30 people over and taking up all the street parking?
It's all a matter of degree, and reasonable people can disagree. Anyone who claims to "know" the right solution is full of crap.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it does look like a zoning problem. But the typical first response to a zoning issue is the issuance of an injunction, not the seizure of large amounts of property. A reasonable response would be a court order to move it out of his house within 30 days.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, it does look like a zoning problem. But the typical first response to a zoning issue is the issuance of an injunction, not the seizure of large amounts of property. A reasonable response would be a court order to move it out of his house within 30 days.
Seizure and destruction of large amounts of property.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Informative)
Not all zoning is dumb. In this case, with as large as chemical fuel load he had in the home, if his house went up it would likely take out the other houses nearby. Zoning helps ensure that when you work on work that is potentially flammable/explosive you minimize the risk to nearby objects.
I AM a fire safety researcher, and I know just how flammable most chemicals can be, especially since it looks like he was doing organic chemistry, which is what I have my doctorate in. I assure you his house (and no one's is) is rated to address the fire risk that would have eventually happened. The fact that he had a fire in his AC tells me that all the fumes from his operation were starting to condense in there and then got activated by a spark in the fan motor.
Since I'm a chemist I'm not happy with how he got treated, but still, he should have known better. While I greatly admire the older chemists for their ability to just tinker, research and work non-stop in the lab, there's a reason why the death rate among chemists has dropped, and its because we don't work like this guy does.
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Animal Control Gone Wild... (Score:4, Interesting)
Jackson County Michigan just got rid of such a petty bureaucrat. She was an animal control officer that put a pig farmer out of business because his pigs were in the mud. Well, the problem is that mud is necessary for pigs well being, it helps them keep from getting sunburned and it cools them. This same officer then (about a year or two later) raided a horse farm because she didn't like the way the horses looked (remember these horses are livestock not pets). A vet friend of mine looked at the horses and didn't see anything wrong - yet the county found some lackey vet to say that there was a sick horse in the herd (a very common occurence when you have more than 2 horeses). The upshot of this story is that the animal control officer no longer has her job and the county is getting sued for the value of the horses they confiscated and sold at auction. I would expect that this ordinance officer will meet the same fate when the agrieved party hires an attorney and sues both her personally (for civil rights violations) and the city/county for other things. These things have a way of working themselves out.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Insightful)
Zoning laws also keep neighbors from toxic gases, explosions, and contaminated ground water.
I've got mixed feelings about this. From the news article it would appear that everything Deeb did was on the up and up. If you are responsible and safe you don't pose a threat to your neighbors.
That said, it wasn't as if the authorities entered Deeb's house on a routine basement chemistry lab inspection. They found his lab while responding to a (unrelated) fire. Even if all the chemicals in the basement were ordinarily benign who knows what the environmental consequences would have been had a fire ravaged his basement.
There's a reason industrial sites have contact with the fire department and State EPA. Deed almost certainly didn't.
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Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you've got this situation well characterized. The question is, how much? You can do a little light manufacturing in your house, after all, without getting a zoning variance.
Likewise a little chemistry is not a problem, but at some point you should have the proper permits to discharge your waste into the sewers (which will probably require inspections), and you really should hire a private trash hauler to deal with your refuse.
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Re:Typical (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1007/NEWS05 [telegram.com]
"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor, authorities said. The ensuing investigation involved a state hazardous materials team, fire and police officials, health officials, environmental officials and code enforcement officials. The Deebs were told to stay in a hotel while the slew of officials investigated and emptied the basement. "
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Re:Typical (Score:4, Interesting)
"The ensuing investigation involved a state hazardous materials team, fire and police officials, health officials, environmental officials and code enforcement officials."
I'm reminded of a fireworks shoot I worked 2 years ago. It was raining on and off all day, but the sponsor insisted, despite the contract, that we go on. The fire marshal agreed with us that the situation was unsafe, but he wasn't willing to pull the plug because he didn't want to piss off the county supervisor.
So we shoot, and there is stuff bursting right over our heads because the charges got wet, and going up in the tubes, and blowing up on the ground. But we finish the show in the pouring rain, and then we need to clean up - also in the pouring rain. And we're finding all sorts of unexploded pyro on the ground, but it's dark as 6' up a well diggers ass, so we try our best. We get done at 6:00 AM and then drive back to the magazine to drop off all of the crap that just didn't go off.
Then my boss gets a call from the fire marshal - it seems we missed a 3" ball and a few stars, and he is DEMANDING that we come back and retrieve them (remember, this is the guy who KNEW this was going to happen but didn't have the balls to do his job). Our boss tells him to fuck off and call back when we get some sleep. 2 hours later he calls back - he's called out the BOMB SQUAD to handle it, and that's the last show we'll ever do in this town, blah, blah, blah. Response? "What makes you think we want to come back to your pissant town, you little shit?"
Fast forward to this year - we get the call to do the show again, because last year's went so well! And before the boss could hang up, they say "BTW, everyone involved with last year's fiasco has been fired".
I didn't shoot the show, but I heard it went well.
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Is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what the environment of hysteria is doing to the US.
Who exactly is terrorizing us these days? Seems like our "elected officials" just want us to be scared all the time so we won't really think about what's going on.
Re:Is anyone surprised? (Score:4, Informative)
In 30+ years of life, the only people who have directly terrorized me are police officers.
I live in the United States of America.
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Re:Is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wish I had mod points for this, I've had the same experience.
Also, I'm just going to f***ing say it, I'm not the least bit afraid of some guy building a bomb or buying an "assault weapon", and killing me with it. Yes, it could happen, but I could also be struck by lightning, get hit by a car, or any number of other things (all of which would probably be more likely), taking chances is simply part of life.
What I am afraid of is our growing police state. Right now its disarmament of the population, and overly restrictive laws that can be enforced at the governments discretion, all made possible by the gradual repealing and (appalling) reinterpretation of protections designed to guard us against this sort of thing, God knows where all this is going.
Come to think about it, I'd feel a hell of alot safer if all my neighbors possessed bombs and actual assault weapons (select fire).
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Call the FBI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed. Massachusetts, allow me to introduce you to the fourth amendment:
This fellow needs to make sure that the local authorities are smacked down. HARD.
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Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Insightful)
This fellow needs to make sure that the local authorities are smacked down. HARD.
Yeah, and the next time he has a run-in with the authorities they'll find out he's a drug dealer [illinoistimes.com]. because you don't have to sell or aven posess drugs for the cops to find them on you.
When something you can plant is illegal, anybody can go to prison, no matter how innocent they are.
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Re:Call the FBI? (Score:4, Insightful)
The article doesn't say anything about him being arrested, just that the police were called and a hazmat team was called. From the article it doesn't sound like he was arrested at all just told to stay in a hotel until the cleanup is done.
As for confiscation of his chemicals, it sounds like he had way more chemicals than he should need, and wasn't storing them properly. TFA also says that some were potentially explosive and doesn't mention his qualifications.
Now a lot of people here will be screaming because his property was taken but keep in mind that no illegal search was made (the chemicals were found during an unrelated fire by the fire department), his housing area wasn't zoned for this (do they actually zone housing areas for chemical work?), some of the chemicals were potentially explosive, he had lots of chemicals some in large quantities, he wasn't arrested just asked to leave during the cleanup, his qualifications sound like a hobbyist not a professional.
I don't know about you but I'm not sure I'd want a hobbyist with an extremely large amount of potentially explosive material (stored improperly) doing "experiments" next door to me and my family.
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Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Insightful)
So the government is in the position to decide how much of something a person needs in their home? "Hey, this guy's a Mormon and he's hoarding a year's worth of food in his home! Nobody should need to keep a year's worth of food in his home!" (Many of my Mormon friends routinely keep that much food on hand, and I'm told this is common.) "Hey, this guy's an audiophile and he's got scads of speakers and amplifiers all over the place! Nobody needs that much consumer electronics in his home!" Or, particularly relevant to people in places like Arizona (where I live), "Hey, this guy has a huge gun collection! Nobody should ever need more than one firearm! Heck, who needs guns at all, unless they're in law enforcement?"
If you want to argue about proper storage, fine. But don't start talking about what you think someone needs or doesn't need. That's not for you to decide.
He's a retired chemist. That's plenty of qualification in my book!
In case you missed it, the first five words of TFA were:
How is it that you could miss the very first sentence of the article and say you don't see any mention of his qualifications, and then turn around and make the claim that you think you know what his qualifications "sound like"?
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Re:Call the FBI? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Call the FBI? (Score:4, Interesting)
"Mr. Deeb declined to comment yesterday. Authorities say he has patents pending and had been using his basement as a science lab to conduct experiments, possibly for many years.
Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboroâ(TM)s code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws."
so the firefighters were at the house legally and found the stuff (he may have told them about it to make them aware of the chemicals when fighting the fire) and the 'residential' community in question has zoning laws that prevent people from developing A-bombs and other such crazy stuff; i.e. serious research and development.
This was not just a small backyard tinkerer. He has patents pending and is a retired chemist.
Right or wrong, ff you don't like the zoning laws, change them or move.
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Re:Thus the saying... (Score:4, Insightful)
I find ignorance to be basically politically agnostic. It's just that different political groups choose to be vocally ignorant about different matters.
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Chemicals (Score:5, Insightful)
There are regulations about how much [of various chemicals] you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of.
Depending on the specifics of what this guy's dealing with, he may be subject to rules regarding the safe disposal of certain chemicals, etc.
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Informative)
Joseph Ferson / Department of Environmental Protection / Joseph.Ferson@state.ma.us / 617-654-6523
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Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
According to the Telegram article, the house had a fire in a second floor air conditioning unit, which was responded to by the fire department. It was then that the fire department found the lab in the basement.
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Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Informative)
1. there was a fire in an air conditioning unit in the home.
2. the fire department responded, and in the course of responding, found hundreds of vials of chemicals.
It's illegal to enter a private residence w/o a warrant, but in this case, the home owner invited the cops in when he called the fire department.
only lesson to be taken home here: hide your stash before calling the cops
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How Dismal (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How Dismal (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder how long before people in possession of scary "hacking software and equipment" are subjected to similar intrusions? Welcome to the NewUSA, where all knowledge is classified.
This has already happened once to a friend of mine who collects large systems and does component-level development.
The local HOA lady called the cops because he had so many computers that "He must be doing something illega! Look at all those wiiiires!"
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They'll find something (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They'll find something (Score:4, Funny)
I can't believe that the FBI wouldn't step into this to defend this man. After all, they're under a presidential administration that has, to date, been so pro-science.
Oh wait.
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What's the big deal? (Score:3, Insightful)
From TFA:
"Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties."
If they discovered that you were keeping 200 cats in your home under extremely unsanitary conditions, they would do the same thing: move all of the cats to a shelter somewhere, and charge you with violating local health regulations once they had assessed the entire situation. I think it's a little bit of a kneejerk reaction to say that they're "ignorantly and irrationally afraid of chemicals" and "abus[ing] power to steal his property".
Would you rather they just ask him "hey, is any of this dangerous?" and leave when he says "no"? There are reasons why we regulate stuff like chemicals (you have to have a permit just to own / use some professional beauty products), and if he wasn't following whatever the local regulations were, then it's his fault.
Now, if it turns out he was indeed following all local / state laws, then the authorities certainly owe him an apology at least.
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I bet they will slap their wrists and say they are very very sorry and it'll never happen again too.
I have a computer. One of those new fancy technology machines that store "files" on it. The local cops should come take it because I may or may not have "illegal" files on it. Once they analyze it they should possibly give it back depending on how they feel. Or they could just keep it. Oh they should also do this without obtaining one of those pesky warrant things. That will help save them time. It won't bother me at all because it's not an invasion of my privacy if it keeps the world safe from evil.
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Re:What's the big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Informative)
Read TFA (the original article, not the sensationalist link):
Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
(emphasis mine)
The discovery wasn't a random home invasion, simply the result of doing their job. Much like police can bust you for murder if they see a dead body in your back seat after pulling you over for speeding, the firefighters reported a potentially unsafe violation of zoning and other laws.
Now if it turns out no laws were broken and they still destroy his property, that's screwed up.
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Re:What's the big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
If we went by rule of law, every SINGLE house in America would violate at LEAST one local, county, state or federal regulation, code, law, etc.
Per your post, how many cats is enough to make it enough too much? I know you would create an unsanitary condition, just when is the judgment call made to do so?
I'm not even going to get into warrant less entry and search.
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Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, they don't know a law he violated, they just knew that we have lots of laws and they disliked what he did so they investigated.
They even CONFISCATED STUFF without yet finding any real law breakage. How would you like it if someone said, you know your car is full of tons of dangerous explosives, then they confiscate and say "We likely think we MIGHT find something illegal on it."
Would you be satisified if they returned it three days later? Would you be satisfied if they returned MOST of it 3 days later, but kept parts of it saying "We haven't definitely found anything illegal yet, but we want to keep looking?"
A reasonable response would have been to let the police look around for ONE HOUR. If they want to take stuff, or even stay for more than one hour, they should have got a warrant.
There are a ton of 'not really laws'. that the government does not enforce unless they dislike you. I won't bother to mention the president and his little "arrested but not charged for cocaine" thing.
I WILL bother to mention the fact that large chemical companies ROUTINELY break the law and no one does anything about it. They get a pass from an inspector after a promise of "we'll fix it later".
The citizen was trying to be nice and proove he did nothing wrong. I'm sure he expected a quick once over and nothing. He knew he was doing nothing seriously wrong.
But instead he got shafted by a stupid government
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We make your choices for you (Score:5, Insightful)
What's the big deal?
This is yet another example of the end of freedom, that's what. This is one set of people deciding that you are making the wrong choices with your freedom and they need to make all your choices for you from now on.
They want to choose
- your hobby,
- what games you can play,
- whether you can smoke,
- what you can drink,
- what you can eat,
- what kinds of cars you're allowed to drive,
- how fast,
- where you can live,
- how you celebrate the 4th of July,
- how much money you can make,
- how much money you can pay your employees,
- how you raise your children,
- what jokes you can tell at work,
- the precise mix of fuel in your gas tank,
- what health care you are to be allowed,
- who you can rent housing to,
- what's on your cable TV,
- and what days you can water your lawn.
What's the big deal? Why don't we all just make exactly the choices you might make and then we'll never have a problem?
And the worst thing: the only "solution" people talk about is getting "person C" to be in charge of making everyone's choices for them instead of "person D".
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I miss freedom (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I miss freedom (Score:5, Funny)
That's why we now have freedom fries. So don't worry, you'll still be able to get your USDA recommended amount of freedom.
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just another thing going wrong ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Although he could be using his home chemistry lab to do illegal things, the government should not be allowed to enter and seize on the ability to do wrong, only on the reasonable suspicion.
If the ability to cause problems was a legitimate reason to stop someone from practicing their hobby, then what about gun enthusiasts? What about drunks? And what about people with cars?
I don't care if you have a home chemistry set, just don't blow up my house.
Once you infringe on my rights, you're in the wrong - and that applies equally to the government!
He didn't conform! (Score:5, Interesting)
So his ''crime'' was to do something slightly different from the rest of the population.
Then I got to thinking: What is normal, what does Mr average do in his spare time ? Does this mean that anyone who does anything except: watch TV, visit shopping malls or go to the pub is weird and so under suspicion ?
I think that I'll put my walking boots on and think about it on a long stroll .... drat - that'll put me under the microscope :-)
protest by buying his book (Score:4, Interesting)
There are always people with authority and the stupidity to use it. So he's been shut down, yes it's terrible - and illegal - and unconstitutional. Perhaps the best way to show your outrage: buy his book: at $29 bucks, why not? That way, just in case justice is not done, he will be able to be well financed to return to his work.
Re:protest by buying his book (Score:5, Informative)
Except the book is not from the man in the article, it's from the blog author that's stirring up the mess by acting as if this was a big deal while plugging his book.
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The EAA had the same fight. (Score:5, Interesting)
The EAA had the same fight about home builders. :)
For those that don't know the EAA represnts people that build their own airplanes or restore old ones. At least one town made it illegal. The EAA usually fights such things and often wins.
Too bad there isn't an EAA for Chemistry.
BTW I am a member of the EAA
Massachusetts... (Score:4, Insightful)
Welcome to the club. (Score:4, Interesting)
There have been similar problems for those who handload ammunition. "Oh my god, this man had 12 pounds of gunpowder in his garage! And look at all this ammunition! It's an arsenal of destruction!"
And no, that's not hyperbole. It's happened. Generally only in places like California or Massachusetts, with their high proportion of Gun Fearing Weenies(tm), but not exclusively.
Proper Property (Score:3, Insightful)
Since when has there existed a reference standard for how people should live in their own homes? Who's home is it, his or the State's?
How many posts would it take for someone to use the word 'totalitarian', I wonder, were this story to have originated from a Communist country?
Re:The Creature lives Igor (Score:4, Funny)
Recruiting for the navy, perhaps? Maybe advertising for the YMCA?
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Contact Info for that part of the city government. (Score:3, Informative)
BS editorializing (Score:5, Informative)
"Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."
appears nowhere in the linked article, yet kdawson has chosen to sensationalize by adding his own words and making it look as if they were part of the article.
In fact the article actually states:
"Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties. "
Re:BS editorializing (Score:4, Informative)
[...]Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for Marlboro, stated, "I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation."
Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: "Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."
In effect, the Massachusetts authorities have invaded Deeb's lab, apparently without a warrant, and stolen his property[...]
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Re:BS editorializing (Score:4, Informative)
After reading the makezine.com story and then reading the actual news story on the Telegram's site, its apparent that the makezine.com's intention was to sensationalize a story that otherwise most no one would have a second thought about.
I wouldn't want this kind of chemistry lab next to my house. There was a fire in a second floor air conditioning unit which the fire department responded to, and it was then that the chemistry lab was found. What if the fire had gotten out of control? Who knows what kind of mess that would have caused not only for the house it was in, but for the entire neighborhood.
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poor excerpt-laws were broken (Score:4, Informative)
After reading the article, I'm pretty unimpressed with the selective quoting in the blurb. Not only were laws broken, but from the description of the house, it sounds like there was at least a little reason to want to investigate, if perhaps not launch a cleanup. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
Hobbyists Less Trusted than Corporations? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.
I find it troubling that hobbyists are less trusted than corporations (assuming that these same experiments, performed by a corporation, would pose no problem - which I think the above quote pretty clearly implies). First, it is a really stupid idea from the American economy standpoint - we've made a lot of hay in this country's history on garage hackers (think: personal computer, for example). Second, what exactly makes corporations (which are made up of individuals) more trustworthy than non-corporate individuals? Timothy McVeigh? USAMRIID Anthrax. This is utterly stupid, and clearly the result of a panic'd mind more concerned with a pretense of safety than with the success of this great nation.
Ah, I love the smell of flamebait in the afternoon (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, the above is a bit far from the inflamitory accusations of ironshod goosestepping that the blog author insinuates.
There is a difference between having a hobby bench and doing 'science' and running a chem lab. One is harmless, the other is only harmless when you take the proper safety percautions.
About to start some shit! (Score:5, Funny)
—Men in Black
What happened != what submitter says happened (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the article:
A fire broke out on the 2nd floor of the subject's home. In the process of responding to this, firefighters found a LOT of chemicals, about 1500 different ones to be exact. The home was not zoned to be a chemical lab, so doing so much chemical work there violated zoning laws.
So while it's quite fun to blame "evil" governments, had a fire not broken out nothing would have happened. And nobody who's railing about the government seems to have any smart ideas on how a home user is going to properly dispose of chemical waste in a legal and environmentally sound way. For all we know he was just dumping stuff down the toilet, which probably isn't legal.
I would like a true discussion of this. (Score:5, Informative)
I contacted Ms. Wilderman, who actually answered her phone. http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index [marlborough-ma.gov]
Pamela A. Wilderman Code Enforcement Officer 508 460-3765
She stated that the fire department was called for an apparent fire on the 2nd floor of Mr. Deeb's home. This allowed the firemen entry into the house. Upon further investigation (of the basement for a 2nd floor fire) the firemen discovered the chemicals and brought in the authorities.
Ms. Wilderman said "We have zoning laws for this purpose, the firefighters were called into what they thought was a single family residence only to discover unmarked chemicals in the basement, he had a chemistry lab down there, in an area zoned residential". I informed her that I had an electronics lab, and beer brewing equipment in mine to which she made the comment "I bet your neighbors are thrilled about that". Of course I don't think my neighbors even know because they all mind their own business.
Anyway this brings up a series of questions. Were the chemicals truly unmarked? Mr. Deebs is a retired chemist, surely he would practice some type of protocol. Second, if his activity is not illegal where is the justification of not only seizing the items, but then stating they will be disposed of. Will Mr. Deebs be reimbursed. What if they went into the basement and discovered a person to hand loads his own ammunition? It is a perfectly legal hobby practiced by shooters all over the country. Would they have seized those items?
Finally, I would love to hear Mr. Deebs story on this. His reputation is being destroyed over a simple hobby.
Bad Summary (Score:3, Informative)
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
Actually, if you'll read the full quote, she finishes with: "⦠There are regulations about how much youâ(TM)re supposed to have, how itâ(TM)s detained, how itâ(TM)s disposed of." and the article continues with: "Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments."
So, even though he wasn't actively being a terrorist or doing anything wrong with the chemicals, there are still rules about how you're supposed to handle it and where and he apparently didn't abide by them well enough.
Regarding the lack of a warrant, to the best of my knowledge, if you have something illegal sitting out in plain sight and a law enforcement agency is there on other business, they don't really need a warrant to get at it.
Home Science not Under Attack (Score:5, Insightful)
Even the newspaper article linked by the person making the sensational claim doesn't support the claim. The story appears in several places and the facts in each don't support the thesis that "Home Science is Under Attack".
The chemist in question had a fire in his house. While the fire department was responding to the fire, they happened upon the lab with an unusually large array of chemicals and equipment. They asked the man what he was doing with them and he noted that he was a retired chemist, doing his own development at home now, and was even patenting and marketing some of the things he developed.
The fire marshall was concerned that the lab might pose a fire hazard and contacted the DEP per the usual protocol, and they went through and checked it out. They notified the town of the situation, who noted that he was doing commercial chemical R&D (by his own admission, he was) in a residential area in violation of applicable zoning laws. The DEP was required to "close" the lab and clean up any chemicals for which there's a prescribed disposal procedure (e.g., you're not supposed to pour large quantities of it down the sink).
The guy broke zoning laws and he got caught because of an unrelated fire in his house. That's it.
Well, as usual the summary is not accurate (Score:4, Informative)
According to the newspaper article "most likely" violated numerous state and local regulations. Nobody is tossing out specifics because the town isn't planning to issue a citation. At issue is "how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of" in a residential area. So the issue isn't "experimenting", it's storage, processing and disposal at a facility not zoned for those purposes.
Common sense will show you that the scale of experimentation makes a difference. Making a few quarts of biodiesel or a few bars of soap, that's home experimenting. Making a thousand gallons of biodiesel or a thousand pounds of soap is an industrial process. There isn't a precise line between chemistry set stuff and industrial production, but it's there. Making four gallons of beer a week is a lot for a home brewer, but making a hundred gallons a week probably means you've "crossed some line".
The story doesn't really give us enough details to know whether the raid was justified, or served any public purpose. That depends on what they expected to find, why the expected to find it, and what they actually found, none of which is at this time public knowledge. We don't even know what level of government initiated this, it appears it was the town.
One thing that's almost certain is that the search did not require a warrant. It is what is legally called an "administrative search". According to the dictionary an administrative search is "an inspection or search carried out under a regulatory or statutory scheme esp. in public or commercial premises and usu. to enforce compliance with regulations or laws pertaining to health, safety, or security. One of the fundamental principles of administrative searches is that the government may not use an administrative inspection scheme as a pretext to search for evidence of criminal violations."
So the health inspector doesn't need a warrant to check on the crazy lady who has 200 cats in her house, which is a code violation even if its perfectly permissible for her to have 2 cats, or even 20. Likewise I can have a dog or two, but I can't run a kennel in a densely populated suburban neighborhood unless I have a zoning variance (and possibly pay commercial tax rates).
You can argue that there shouldn't be such thing as zoning regulations. And its probably true that there are many places where there is little or no purpose to them. But zoning laws and administrative searches are NOT unconstitutional, at least by the interpretation of the Constitution that has held sway for a century or more.
Good God. America has lost it (Score:5, Interesting)
The poster is leading people on... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.'
The actual article says:
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws. It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood," she said. "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ... There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
Either the poster didn't properly read, or he/she just considers zoning bylaws useless. For those that do think zoning bylaws serve no point, let me reference the recent propane explosion [cnn.com] that occured in the middle of a Toronto residential neighbourhood, leaving two people dead and hundreds of homes damaged, and is now the subject of a zoning review [thestar.com]
Regardless, Chemistry still lacking (Score:3, Interesting)
A few posters have noted that there was a fire in the household etc. Regardless, as a kid, I grew up in the "new age" of computers. A Commodore 64 in-hand, I played video games on it and did a bit of programming. I had a huge interest in science. But, like many other kids, were were generally more fortunate than our parents and our toys were more expensive and significantly less educational and a huge was of time: video games and cable TV. No less than straight-A's from grade school to high school.
My father had chemistry sets and Meccano toys when he grew up. I had access to Meccano parts and motors but I grew bored and tired of it. Instead video games and TV.
My father and I are on equal footing in terms of IQ. He's a doctor. I studied in science at university-level but I grew frustrated with Chemistry and Biology simply because it didn't come "naturally". Perhaps that's an excuse. Whatever. Not important to my argument. I think not having chem set was one reason. I don't regret what might have been - I didn't want to be a doctor after all. But, this society is probably turning away a lot of brilliant minds. Banning learning tools - books, chem sets, etc. is a bad, bad move. Maybe I could be an astrophysicist if I'd not had video games and cable TV. If not me, then some other would-be Nobel Prize winner.
So, I think before any governments go banning or raiding people's homes for chemistry sets - whatever the reason - they should consider the effects of this on society and the education system. For parents that *know nothing* about Chemistry, they are not going to buy little Johnny a chemistry set because all the negative attention its getting in the media makes them think he's going to take the house down. See Dihydrogen Monoxide hoax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax [wikipedia.org].
What is wrong with you?! (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a fire in his house. The fire dept. and police come, and put out the fire. In the process of putting out the fire, they notice hundreds of vials of chemicals. Not in a rack, not on a shelf, not even on a table, but all over the place. On the floor, on furniture, everywhere. No reasonable chemist would be dumb enough to do that with any chemicals.
What would you want the police to do? Walk out without doing a little due diligence? There's a good chance he is storing these chemicals unsafely, and he is endangering his life and possibly others as a result. So they call in the experts to clean it up. And then they take a look at what he's done wrong, and probably will give him a fine and a slap on the wrist.
It's amazing how many Slashdotters don't even bother to do a bit of research before coming to their black-and-white conclusion about how The Man is bad and this poor fellow is being an upstanding citizen with his rights violated. How dare the police invade this man's home! It's an attack on science! They hate the science!
RTFA!
There are alot of Slashdotters that seem to take pride in their critical thinking, intelligence, and analysis skills. Honestly, alot of you really don't demonstrate it very often here. It's more like a lynch mob than a bunch of intelligent people discussing issues.
Ooh, Scary (Score:3, Funny)
It's Massachusetts. We don't like your science and technology very much over here.
You know, after ten years of living here, I still tell people I'm "originally from Maine" so as not to get lumped in...
Haven't moved on from the 17th century. (Score:4, Funny)
He's lucky they didn't hang him as a witch.
Founding fathers (Score:3, Informative)
theEddieCurrents (Score:3, Interesting)
Worcester? (Score:3, Funny)
Here's the local article from Worcester...
See how bad things have gotten? In today's climate, they'd never have been ABLE to invent Worcester-shire Sauce.
Do you have or plan a high-tech garage startup (Score:3, Insightful)
That "not a customary home occupation" test can be applied to anything VCs are likely to fund. So get out now before the city shuts you down for not doing something that's within the rather limited comprehension range of their code enforcement officer. "You're programming computers? EVIL HACKER, I'm calling the police right now! You've crossed an invisible line!!!" Alternative energy? "Algae is dangerous! I have to clean it out of my pool every week. And you're growing the stuff? The Department of Homeland Security knows how to deal with your kind!" Otherwise, assuming you stay out of jail or Gitmo, you'll have to watch your competitors in saner jurisdictions pull ahead of you while you try to get your hardware and data files away from the city.
There are reasons why even left-wing Democrats joke about the "People's Republic of Massachusetts". If this kind of nanny-state crap becomes prevalent in MA, even MIT's chemistry classes are likely to turn into high-school style 'comment and take notes on the experiment you'll be watching on video' crap. Though more likely, they'll simply find a saner state to move to.
This is so frustrating (Score:3, Insightful)
This drives me crazy. My hobby is microscopy, and it is nearly impossible to get the supplies I need - and I am a pharmacist. After pondering this dilemma, I started carrying a number of chemicals, and repackaging them in smaller portions for the group of people who share my interest, and I charge cost for them. Every time a health inspector or Board of Pharmacy inspector comes in I have to explain and justify why I carry these "exotic items". I used to get Nitric acid from the local pharmacy when I was a kid just by saying it was for my chemistry set. Things have sure changed.