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Space Mars

SpaceX Launched and Landed Another Starship Prototype (cnbc.com) 81

Posted by EditorDavid from the practicing-for-Mars dept.
"SpaceX took another step forward Thursday in developing its next-generation Starship rocket, conducting the second short flight test of a prototype in the past month," reports CNBC: Starship prototype Serial Number 6, or SN6, took off from the launchpad at SpaceX's facility in Boca Chica, Texas. It gradually rose to about 500 feet above the ground before it returned back to land, touching down on a concrete area near the launchpad. The flight test appeared to be identical to the test SpaceX conducted of prototype SN5 on Aug. 5...

The company is developing Starship with the goal of launching cargo and as many as a 100 people at a time on missions to the Moon and Mars.

SpaceX has been steadily building multiple prototypes at a time at the company's growing facility in Boca Chica. While SpaceX's fleet of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy rockets are partially reusable, Musk's goal is to make Starship fully reusable — envisioning a rocket that is more akin to a commercial airplane, with short turnaround times between flights where the only major cost is fuel. After SpaceX in May launched a pair of NASA astronauts in its first crewed mission, Musk pivoted the company's attention, declaring that the top SpaceX priority is now development of Starship. Musk said in an email obtained by CNBC that Starship's program must accelerate "dramatically and immediately..."

He expects Starship's first flight tests to orbit won't come until 2021, saying that SpaceX is in "uncharted territory."
Commenting on the test launch of the bulky spacecraft, Elon Musk tweeted "Turns out you can make anything fly haha."
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SpaceX Launched and Landed Another Starship Prototype More

SpaceX Launched and Landed Another Starship Prototype

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  • He expects Starship's first flight tests to orbit (Score:3)

    by cahuenga ( 3493791 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @10:50AM (#60476544)
    I'll take that bet. Christ, they don't even have a prototype Super Heavy booster built yet.

    • Re:He expects Starship's first flight tests to orb (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jfdavis668 ( 1414919 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @10:57AM (#60476564)
      They are learning from the starship. No point trying to learn the same thing with the larger component. Now that they have the production process down, they can build a booster fairly quickly. Many of the components are probably already constructed and waiting for the assembly building to be complete.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Shmoe ( 17051 )

      Look at this guy, wants to bet against Elon Musk! How's that working out for everyone else? :)

    • Re:He expects Starship's first flight tests to orb (Score:5, Insightful)

      by chispito ( 1870390 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @11:08AM (#60476594)

      I'll take that bet. Christ, they don't even have a prototype Super Heavy booster built yet.

      I wouldn't bet on or against SpaceX when it comes to timelines. But I can say that as with all rockets, engine development is the majority of the work. All other systems are directly influenced by engine design and performance. They're still doing engine testing; they just happen to be doing it in the air. Once the engine is production ready, pivoting from the second stage to the first should not be a far more manageable task.

      • should not be a far more manageable task.

        Derp. should be a far more manageable task.

      • You mean like Elon saying last year:"I feel very confident predicting autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year,"? And he has been claiming that for years now.

        Or, to reporters in 2017:: "Next year is going to be a big year for carrying people to the space station and hopefully beyond,"

        And don't even get me started on Hyperloop and the whole shingle thing. Look, the guy is great, if not a bit delusional with his claims from time to time.

        • Re:He expects Starship's first flight tests to orb (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Rei ( 128717 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @01:10PM (#60476854) Homepage

          Counterpoint: Model Y was more than half a year ahead of schedule. Giga Shanghai was ahead of schedule. Giga Berlin is running ahead of schedule. Want to bet against Tera Austin?

          Five years ago Musk predicted Tesla would be producing 500k cars annually in 2020. Guess what Tesla's guidance at the start of the year (pre-COVID) was? 500k. And despite COVID shutting down their factory for much of Q2, "While achieving this goal has become more difficult, delivering half a million vehicles in 2020 remains our target."

          Five years ago, Musk predicted GF1 (which bears called the "Gigglefactory", mocking its chances of success) would drive down battery costs by a minimum of 30%. While numbers are company secrets, a Trefis analysis this year pinned the price reduction from $230/kWh to $127/kWh at the pack level last year.

          Yes, Musk is always incredibly ambitious, and has over the years set hundreds if not thousands of incredibly ambitious goals between his companies, which at the time are generally mocked as unrealistic or impossible. The fact is that he has overwhelmingly achieved said things is why he is one of the wealthiest people in the world today, and people who shorted his stock in the long term ended up losing lots of money (even though they may brag about short-term wins on volatility [slashdot.org]). And no amount of hand-picking from all of his crazy ambitious goals some things that happened late or haven't happened yet will change that.

        • The only thing wrong has been the timelines. A lot of them are 5-10 years behind schedule but will happen sooner or later.

          If I were to pick some claims that are closer to the "won't happen in the next 50 years" mark, I'd go with 1) having a million people on Mars / terraforming Mars, 2) replaying memories using Neuralink

      • Engine development is the majority of the engineering work, but engine construction and assembly is necessary as well. The first stage will need somewhere from 28 to 36 engines, and the second stage another half dozen. To fly by the end of 2021, 15 months from now, will require assembly at an average rate of less than two weeks per engine.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        It certainly helps that the first and second stages are built in the exact same manner, too, and that Starship (both tankage and engines) is designed for mass production, with a lot of automated (and increasingly automated) steps.

        Also helps that the raw materials are so cheap, so they can afford to blow up some test rockets en route instead of having to treat every one like it's made of gold.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by OMBad ( 6965950 )
          LOL. Still on the "dreadnought" hype, eh? Still waiting on my dreadnaught factory. You guys are comical. I guess that is what happens when software guys think they know something about building real stuff.

          • Re:He expects Starship's first flight tests to orb (Score:4, Informative)

            by Rei ( 128717 ) on Sunday September 06, 2020 @04:48AM (#60478430) Homepage

            LOL. Still on the "dreadnought" hype, eh?

            All I said was the fact that the major stages of Starship production are now automated, and that they're automating even more of them. Do you have a problem with facts?

            But if you want to want to talk about Tesla, while you self-contentedly titter, Tesla is now producing the entire rear half of the Model Y's structure in a single cast piece, including everything from bolt holes to wiring channels to fittings and so on down the line, all in a single stage, no post heat treatment or anything. Nothing even remotely near that scale exists in the world of mass-produced passenger vehicles. Have a listen to what industry experts think of it. [youtube.com] (note: at this point it was made in two pieces connected by a bracket; they've since switched to a single piece and it extends further forward into the vehicle, replacing additional parts). More. [sae.org].

            Sandy Munro, CEO at Munro & Associates, the benchmarking and competitive analysis firm renowned for its highly analytic “teardowns” of popular and innovative vehicles, recently completed a teardown of a Model Y. A series of internet videos covering Munro’s assessment garnered more than 36 million impressions in little more than a month. Munro was particularly impressed by the current two-piece aluminum underbody structure – and openly offered admiration in an interview with SAE’s Automotive Engineering.

            He said the current Tesla Model Y has “two of the biggest castings we’ve ever seen in a car. We’ve never seen them used in an automobile before of that size. There’s lots [of innovative aluminum applications] at Cadillac, BMW, Audi – they’ve all used castings. But nothing quite the size of this thing.” Munro also participated in the podcast in which Musk spoke of the coming single-piece casting. Moving to the “megacasting,” as Munro dubbed it, “definitely wins the prize,” he asserted. “That’s going to be the biggest casting for quite a while. Nobody’s exploring that.”

            The mammoth machine is being supplied by IDRA Group, an Italian leader in HPDC equipment founded in 1946. Tesla is the first customer for IDRA’s hulking OL6100 CS (with upgraded locking force to handle the special Tesla casting), destined for installation in the company’s Fremont, California and Shanghai, China, plants. IDRA’s “Giga Press” measures some 64 feet (19.5 m) long and 17 feet (5.3 m) tall. Along with the higher clamping force is a maximum aluminum-alloy “shot” weight of 104.6 kg (231 lb). The OL6100’s output may be lightweight castings, but the machine itself is anything but light, weighing in excess of 410 tons.

            The single-piece casting for Model Y will replace around 70 stampings, extrusions and castings that currently make up the same fabricated assembly in the Model 3, on which much of the Model Y is based. Musk described the Model 3’s rear structure as “a patchwork quilt – it’s not great. The complexity in the body shop is insane,” he said.

            Harbour agreed. With such a large and inclusive casting, “Even with a big cycle time, you eliminate all the labor to assemble pieces and subcomponents,” she observed. “You’re saving on automation cells, you’re saving on people. It would be tough to put dollars to it, but think of multiple suppliers doing stampings, you could save maybe 20% on labor cost. And reduction in footprint is major. My guess is that it’s a net-net efficiency gain.”

            That's just a single example - I could bring up tons of others (for example, the octovalve, where a whole wide array of valves, pumps, heat exchangers, plumbing

            • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

              by Rei ( 128717 )

              Re, Starship - to put it another way: does this look hand-welded to you? [teslarati.com]. Here's what a hand-welded starship looked like (right) [shopify.com]. The rings are automatically rolled into shape, cut, and seam welded. The connections between rings are automatically orbital welded. I'm not sure if they're still manually positioning the rings, but they're bare minimum switching to automated positioning. They've also been spotted setting up welding robots for the bulkheads, and potentially the stringers.

              We never get to see ins

    • The booster is way simpler, though. It doesn't need to reach similar mass parameters or have a TPS.

    • I donâ(TM)t get it. Why do they need a prototype SuperHeavy booster built before testing orbit testing of Starship? Seems they are doing good so far. At SpaceX they want to do like Tesla does it. That is, they are doing all their designs for parallel lanes of lights-out factory or alien dreadnought robotic manufacturing. Thatâ(TM)s the only way to make things cheap. Workers are unpredictable, even if they appear cheaper at first. Robotic tooling may break down, but if you have many parallel lanes

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by OMBad ( 6965950 )
        "lights-out factory or alien dreadnought robotic manufacturing"

        LOL. You guys are still believing that stuff?

      • >Why do they need a prototype SuperHeavy booster built before testing orbit testing of Starship?
        The assumption is, presumably, in order to actually get there.

        Generally speaking a second-stage rocket can't reach orbit on its own - it needs the first stage to lift it out of the atmosphere and to give it a good start towards reaching orbital speed. There have been some designs for Single-Stage-to-Orbit (SSTO) launch systems, but they mostly haven't gone anywhere since carrying all that extra mass of tanks

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by quenda ( 644621 )

          Starship might not need that first stage though - before they shifted to using steel Musk had said that Starship would be able to carry a small payload to orbit on it's own [SSTO], which would be pretty useless for most things, but convenient for orbital and reentry testing,

          No, not a chance. If you take the current specs from the wikipedia page, 120t empty plus 1200t propellant, and 3.7km/s Ve (vacuum engine), you do get almost enough delta-V (8.8km/s) to reach orbit. But a few problems:
          - Using sea-level engines, the specific impulse is too low to reach orbit, only 3.2km/s.
          - Six engines will not produce enough thrust to lift from the launch pad when full. Moon or Mars, sure, but not on Earth.
          - There is no fuel left for re-entry and landing
          - that 120t empty mass with all the l

          • Hey, I'm not the guy leading the company - and so far he's got a pretty good track record of meeting the technical goals he's set forth, even if his timelines often slip.

            - The specific impulse is fine for reaching orbit - the vacuum version of the Merlin engine on the Falcon 9 has a specific impulse of only 3.05 km/s.

            - According to Wikipedia, a fully fueled Starship will weigh 2,910 thousand pounds, while a single SL Raptor engine has a thrust range of 200-500 thousand pounds, or 3,000 thousand pounds for 6

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by quenda ( 644621 )

              - The specific impulse is fine for reaching orbit - the vacuum version of the Merlin engine on the Falcon 9 has a specific impulse of only 3.05 km/s.

              You clearly don't understand the Rocket Equation. Nobody is ever going to achieve SSTO (single stage to orbit) with a Merlin engine.
              Rocket science may be hard, but the rocket equation is very simple, and imposes oppressive limits.

              And you have quoted the vacuum-optimised version's specific impulse. That will not work on the launchpad. The version that will has a specific impulse of 2.77 km/s.

    • "I'll take that bet. "

      Didn't you loose enough yet?

      He'll never build a electric car.
      He'll never build a rocket that gets into orbit.
      He'll never build a rocket that lands again where it started.
      He'll never build a rocket that lands on a ship.
      He'll never build a rocket that brings NASA astronauts into space. .....
      He'll never read the brains of pigs.

    • SuperHeavy might not be needed to reach orbit though. Back before the shift to stainless steel, the plan was that Starship would be able to make it to orbit on its own, though with only a tiny payload. If that's still the case then orbital test flights could begin long before SuperHeavy is ready.

      Still, less than four months to get the flaps and heat shield working well enough to want attempt the much more strenuous challenge of reentry would be really impressive.

    • I believe an orbital starship can make it into orbit on it's own. Doubt they'll use a booster for any early orbital tests. Until you load down starship with cargo it's all good. The ultimate point to point starship for people, if it ever happens, won't require the booster for launch, or maybe some much smaller booster.

  • Musk said in an email obtained by CNBC that Starship's program must accelerate "dramatically and immediately..."

    That's because Elon Musk is from the future and he knows what's coming. The very survival of the human race depends on SpaceX and Starships.

    • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by Kokuyo ( 549451 )

      Do you need to be from the future to realise that? The strange thing is I thought the biggest danger was posed by pollution but I think I'll switch my answer to liberals, if I may.

      Although what's the difference, really?

      Disclaimer: I am a liberal.

      • Damn those liberals. They've run the country into the ground. If only our current POTUS were a Republican.

        • Considering the fact that the US voting system only favours Dems and Reps, and that AFAIK you do not even have a liberal party: this hate about liberals makes no sense at all.

        • Too bad he's a Putinist.....

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by OMBad ( 6965950 )

      The very survival of the human race depends on SpaceX and Starships.

      Man, we are in bigger trouble than I thought. LOL.

    • Re:This has to be repeated again (Score:4, Funny)

      by dotancohen ( 1015143 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @01:02PM (#60476826) Homepage

      I think general consensus is that Elon Musk is actually from Mars. He's just trying to get home.

  • The thing that was tested doesn't look like an entire starship. What is it? A rocket motor plus fuel? But with its own guidance? Would a battery of these each have its own fuel tank just like this, or share an even bigger one?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by OMBad ( 6965950 )
      Just another prototype that will be used to launch satellites/cargo at some point. The "Starship" moniker is just the typical Musk hype.

      • He's building the biggest rocket ever, on the cheap, oh and it will be reusable, and you are whining about the NAME ?!

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by OMBad ( 6965950 )
          Well it isn't the biggest rocket ever, as you can clearly see from the video, and I am not whining about anything, but whatever. Someone asked what the thing was that was being tested and I responded with accurate information. Not sure what your problem is.

          • Re:What is this thing exactly? (Score:4, Informative)

            by Magnificat ( 1920274 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @03:52PM (#60477312)
            SN5 and SN6 are simply the bottom half of the actual orbiter upper stage. SN8, which is currently being stacked, will include the nose section and the control surfaces, along with more advanced landing gear, so figure probably close to 2x as tall. From a size perspective, this thing is bigger than it looks -- the diameter of even the current test vehicles are 9m (i.e. 30ft across). By comparison a Falcon 9 booster is only 12ft across and the payload fairing section is just 17ft in diameter. The Super Heavy booster, which is just now entering the construction phase, will be the same diameter but MUCH taller. The full stack of the Starship plus the Super Heavy booster will dwarf even a Saturn V.

      • And Starliner is typical Boeing hype?

    • Re:What is this thing exactly? (Score:4, Informative)

      by dotancohen ( 1015143 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @01:06PM (#60476838) Homepage

      This was a test of the major structural components of the Starship. The tanks are production design, including the tank domes and plumbing. The thrust structure (they call it the puck) is a simplified production design. The software is suspected to be a production design and GSE is not finalized yet, but this version will likely find its way into the production design.

      The type of steel will likely change, the landing legs will changes, and of course the payload section will be added along with aerodynamic surfaces and a heat shield.

      So far as we know, there has been no publicly-visible work done on the life support systems yet.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by OMBad ( 6965950 )
        LOL. People who think that anything like this prototype will actually launch humans to Mars are delusional. I'm not saying SpaceX won't go to Mars, but it won't be anything like this prototype. This will be used for satellite delivery and cargo. Musk calls it a "Starship" just to keep the fanboys interested.
      • Thank you so. So the main body of this will be about this size. Will there be a lot more rocket motors on the bottom though? It seems sort of balanced on a single one, plus some little attitude control rockets on the sides.

        • Re:What is this thing exactly? (Score:4, Informative)

          by Magnificat ( 1920274 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @03:45PM (#60477294)
          SN5 and SN6 are early representations of what the final Starship will be. They contain the engine mounts (a somewhat simplified thrust puck), the fuel storage tanks, and basic cold gas control thrusters (the little side mounted control rockets). Essentially the diameter is right, but the top half of the vehicle is not there. From the perspective of testing the fueling and basic engine performance, it doesn't NEED to be there. They simply add a heavy ballast at the top of the vehicle to make up for some of the missing weight. SN8, which is currently being stacked, will be the first full height test flight vehicle and will include the nose cone and some of the control surfaces. It *may* be the first Starship to do a 20km high flight test and, if so, will likely need the control surfaces to attempt a "skydiver" type landing where it comes in nose first and then flips over onto the rockets just before landing. Additionally, the reason that the engine on SN5 and SN6 is off center is that the thrust puck mount is designed for 3 (eventually 6) engines and only has one installed. SN8 will have 3 sea level Raptor engines installed for its testing. Eventually, Starship itself will have 3 sea level optimized Raptor engines plus and other 3 vacuum optimized Raptor engines (RVac). The RVac engines have a MUCH larger engine bell to better constrain the thrust in the vacuum of space (where it tends to expand rapidly to the sides in the absence of air pressure and the thrust become much less directional). Musk unveiled the first RVac engine on his Twitter feed this week.

        • Re:What is this thing exactly? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by KClaisse ( 1038258 ) on Saturday September 05, 2020 @04:04PM (#60477348)
          The reason for only a single rocket motor here is because you can only throttle down rocket engines so much. If they used more than a single engine they wouldnt be able to gently bring it down or hover. Their later design SN8 is supposed to use 3 raptor engines in its "belly flop" test from a much higher altitude (1200m instead of 150m). The rocket engine design is also very new with lots of untested technology (full flow staged combustion cycle, 3d printed parts) so SpaceX is taking their time to make sure they get things like procedure and ground support equipment worked out. If you watch the first starship hop test with SN5 you can see some of the ground support equipment exploding and being sent skyward. In this latest SN6 test I didnt see any exploding equipment and they were able to launch much quicker and with less delays than SN5. Despite what some ardent detractor(s) in this comment section would say, these tests are on the path towards a full scale launch system which consists of the first stage "Super Heavy" and the second stage "Starship" which is designed to take astronauts and equipment to destinations like Mars and farther. What can cause confusion is that the second stage is also supposed to be able to launch and land alone, unlike more traditional second stages that are designed for vacuum operation only.

        • The plan for Starship is six engines - three atmospheric engines in the center (the current tests are using only one of those mounts), and three vacuum engines with much larger bells around the outside. Though early test versions might end up using six atmospheric engines in order to be able to carry a tiny payload to orbit for testing (and delay the need to develop the vacuum engine variants). And possibly only one engine will be used during landing, since with empty fuel tanks a single Raptor at near-mi

    • It's the fuel tanks and engine system.

      Musk has said SN8 will be the first to get the nose-cone and flaps, which are needed for "sky-diving" and reentry, but are completely useless for the low altitude non-aerodynamic test flights they're currently performing. No sense mounting expensive aerodynamic surfaces to something that will never use them.

    • What you are seeing is the bottom 2/3 of the upper stage of the total system. It's the [fuel tank]+[oxidizer tank]+[thrust structure]+[one main engine]+[landing legs]+[maneuvering thrusters]. The part not present is the upper part, which is cylindrical about half its length and then tapers like a typical nosecone, which would hold the payload, plus the large aft fins and the smaller nose fins used for aerodynamics in the high atmosphere during reentry (which these protos will not be doing).

      Why only one engi

  • To me, it feels not entirely unlike calling visiting your next door neighbor a continental journey.

    • Why are they calling this thing a starship? [...] To me, it feels not entirely unlike calling visiting your next door neighbor a continental journey.

      You could drive next door (maybe you have long driveways) in a Lincoln Continental.

    • It's named after Jefferson Starship. Apparently the name "Airplane" was already taken for something else.
    • Names for these sorts of things are often similar to this even when they obviously won't meet the literal name. Boeing's new capsule for example is called Starliner.

    • I was so disappointed when I discovered that Chevy Corvette is not only completely unseaworthy, it has neither missile launchers nor guns and it's far too small for a helipad.

    • and Chevy Chase, MD is not named after the comedian.

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