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Science

Legend of Loch Ness Monster Will Be Tested With DNA Samples (apnews.com) 75

Posted by msmash from the unravelling-mysteries dept.
The stories seem as tall as the lake is deep. For hundreds of years, visitors to Scotland's Loch Ness have described seeing a monster that some believe lurks in the depths. But now the legend of "Nessie" may have no place left to hide. From a report: A New Zealand scientist is leading an international team to the lake next month, where they will take samples of the murky waters and conduct DNA tests to determine what species live there. University of Otago professor Neil Gemmell says he's no believer in Nessie, but he wants to take people on an adventure and communicate some science along the way. Besides, he says, his kids think it's one of the coolest things he's ever done. One of the more far-fetched theories is that Nessie is a long-necked plesiosaur that somehow survived the period when dinosaurs became extinct. Another theory is that the monster is actually a sturgeon or giant catfish. Many believe the sightings are hoaxes or can be explained by floating logs or strong winds.
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Legend of Loch Ness Monster Will Be Tested With DNA Samples More

Legend of Loch Ness Monster Will Be Tested With DNA Samples

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  • If nothing else, Biodiversity recordings (Score:5, Insightful)

    by allaunjsilverfox2 ( 882195 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:45AM (#56659258) Homepage Journal
    If nothing else comes from it, at least there will be a snapshot of the current level of biodiversity in the lake. Which could be useful for future planning if there is ever a algae bloom or other problem that arises. They could look back at the test and track where the problem first showed up.

    • Re:If nothing else, Biodiversity recordings (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Registered Coward v2 ( 447531 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:53AM (#56659302)
      The legend is more valuable than the truth; because you can sell the legend. It will be good to have a better understanding of the water's biodiversity, but I doubt it will have much impact on the legend. True believers will fin some conspiracy or mistake facts to argue their point, and the tourism council will continue to promote the monster.

      • Re:If nothing else, Biodiversity recordings (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:02AM (#56659360)

        > The legend is more valuable than the truth; because you can sell the legend.

        Yeah I don't know about that. I went to Loch Ness as part of a group tour and I was prepared to be inundated with Nessie this and Nessie that.

        I was very pleasantly surprised when I wasn't indundated with Nessie stuff. There is a little building that I think is also an inn, with a Nessie monster display, and that's about it. The narration on board a boat tour spent far more time talking about the real history of the region than monster sighting. Really, the whole Loch Ness Monster thing seemed to be an afterthought and not nearly as important as Urquhart Castle.

        And outside of that area the only time I saw Nessie-related things was solely in tourist trinket shops.

        It really feels like they are not trying hard to capitalise on this legend at all.

        • They are not they dislike it (Score:4, Interesting)

          by aepervius ( 535155 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @12:27PM (#56659838)
          Last time I was there I friended a few locals at a pub, and the gist of it is that they dislike all nessie stuff, and think it overshadow their region and its history. Basically if you talk to the local they will barely mention it, some don't even do (and if you DO mention it you get the "tourist idiot" stamp and they won't talk to you). There are a few selling trinkets but you speak to most local, you pretty much the impression Nessie's story is a plague. As for "100 of years" that is a load of BS. There is a few story here and there and some hint at a very small monster (human sized roughly) but in reality until start of the 20th century (about 1930-1940) you pretty much have zero tradition of it. It only exploded with the Surgeon hoax photo.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        ...True believers will fin some conspiracy...

        Subtle but on point - well played sir!

    • If nothing else comes from it, at least there will be a snapshot of the current level of biodiversity in the lake. Which could be useful for future planning if there is ever a algae bloom or other problem that arises. They could look back at the test and track where the problem first showed up.

      How accurate is taking DNA samples from water though? Can you really take a sample of water and determine all the creatures that live there? I'm skeptical on how accurate this is. I certainly don't believe there is an actual Loch Ness Monster, but if there were, and their numbers were very low, how likely would you be to catch their DNA in a sample, in 10, in 100.

      Maybe the science for this is better than I suspect (I'm no expert) but this strikes me of fishing for Tuna in a back-yard pond.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        My quick search for information only found organizations testing for microbial life in water systems. Some of them claim to have 100% or higher* accuracy.

        *higher not garaunteed in realities where 100% means perfect accuracy

        He said his team will take 300 samples of water from different points around the lake and at different depths. They will filter the organic material and extract the DNA, he said, sequencing it by using technology originally created for the human genome project.

        He said the DNA results will then be compared against a database of known species. He said they should have answers by the end of the year.

        I would like to know if he has tested this method in an aquarium.

      • Re:If nothing else, Biodiversity recordings (Score:5, Interesting)

        by shess ( 31691 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:40AM (#56659592) Homepage

        If nothing else comes from it, at least there will be a snapshot of the current level of biodiversity in the lake. Which could be useful for future planning if there is ever a algae bloom or other problem that arises. They could look back at the test and track where the problem first showed up.

        How accurate is taking DNA samples from water though? Can you really take a sample of water and determine all the creatures that live there? I'm skeptical on how accurate this is. I certainly don't believe there is an actual Loch Ness Monster, but if there were, and their numbers were very low, how likely would you be to catch their DNA in a sample, in 10, in 100.

        Maybe the science for this is better than I suspect (I'm no expert) but this strikes me of fishing for Tuna in a back-yard pond.

        The biggest problem is that such a sampling expedition is going to find a lot of unknown DNA and a lot of ambiguous DNA, which is all you need to keep the legend rolling. You can't explain 100% of the DNA you find in a local puddle, much less a substantial body of water like this with relatively low through current.

        • Fair point. Neil Gemmell is a specialist in mitochondrial DNA. (I'm not, but I've co-authored with him.) So I expect they'll pick out any DNA which look like they are mitochondrial by using highly conserved mitochondrial genes, and then see how that mitochondria compares to known species. If all the mitochondria they find is closely related to known fish, snails, birds etc. then this is evidence against Nessie. If they find something unlike anything known but looks like it had a common ancestor with birds o

      • How accurate is taking DNA samples from water though?

        When it comes to finding mythical monsters completely inaccurate. Anyone who really believes that there is a monster in Loch Ness is simply going to explain it away by e.g. claiming the monster is alien and doesn't have DNA. It's hard to argue against firmly held, irrational beliefs with rational, evidence-based arguments unless you can provide clear and direct evidence that explicitly contradicts those beliefs and not finding something is not going to do that.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by jwhyche ( 6192 )

          We could drain the damn thing. Tag and categorize every fish and weed in the loch, and some fruit would still believe in a monster. Humans have an amazing capacity for self deception.

    • In reality University of Otago professor Neil Gemmell is a Hydra agent and he's introducing a catfish virus that produces the super-soldier serum into the lake to breed an army of land locked weaponized catfish and to destabilize the Louisiana Gumbo hegemony. Otago is a secret country similar to Wakanda, that is the headquarters of Hydra. Neil Gemmell is professor of the Dark Arts at the university.

    • it's a loch not a lake.

  • One of the more far-fetched theories is that Nessie is a long-necked plesiosaur that somehow survived the period when dinosaurs became extinct. Another theory is that the monster is actually a sturgeon or giant catfish. Many believe the sightings are hoaxes or can be explained by floating logs or strong winds.

    There is no giant monster. It's a nice little fun story based on no actual credible evidence but it does bring in tourism dollars. (gee wonder why they keep the story going... $$$) It's fed by the same sorts of idiots who buy into conspiracy theories, bigfoot sightings, and who forget what the U in UFO stands for. The notion that it could be some sort of plesiosaur is just absurd because there would have to be a population of them and that would be impossible to hide even in an ocean much less 7.5 km^

    • One of the more far-fetched theories is that Nessie is a long-necked plesiosaur that somehow survived the period when dinosaurs became extinct. Another theory is that the monster is actually a sturgeon or giant catfish. Many believe the sightings are hoaxes or can be explained by floating logs or strong winds.

      There is no giant monster. It's a nice little fun story based on no actual credible evidence but it does bring in tourism dollars. (gee wonder why they keep the story going... $$$) It's fed by the same sorts of idiots who buy into conspiracy theories, bigfoot sightings, and who forget what the U in UFO stands for. The notion that it could be some sort of plesiosaur is just absurd because there would have to be a population of them and that would be impossible to hide even in an ocean much less 7.5 km^3 of water. It's people seeing what they want to see. Nothing more.

      I, don't disagree with you, but playing the Donald's advocate:

      What if there were some huge undocumented caves somewhere off the depths of the lake that contained something essential for the Pleiosaurs to survive. They don't normally leave the caves, but occasionally one does... they get sick, rise to the surface and get spotted by tourists before dying and sink to the bottom where they are eaten by fish and other organisms.

      Yeah, nonsense I know... but theoretically possible

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by shess ( 31691 )

        I, don't disagree with you, but playing the Donald's advocate:

        What if there were some huge undocumented caves somewhere off the depths of the lake that contained something essential for the Pleiosaurs to survive. They don't normally leave the caves, but occasionally one does... they get sick, rise to the surface and get spotted by tourists before dying and sink to the bottom where they are eaten by fish and other organisms.

        Yeah, nonsense I know... but theoretically possible

        What if God just pops up to play with giant plesiosaur puppets periodically? I mean, seems unlikely, but theoretically possible.

        • I, don't disagree with you, but playing the Donald's advocate:

          What if there were some huge undocumented caves somewhere off the depths of the lake that contained something essential for the Pleiosaurs to survive. They don't normally leave the caves, but occasionally one does... they get sick, rise to the surface and get spotted by tourists before dying and sink to the bottom where they are eaten by fish and other organisms.

          Yeah, nonsense I know... but theoretically possible

          What if God just pops up to play with giant plesiosaur puppets periodically? I mean, seems unlikely, but theoretically possible.

          Not theoretically possible because he doesn't exist.

      • Statistics favor there being no Loch Ness monster. Back in the latter half of the 1900s, about 100,000 people visited the lake each year. Only a few percent of them had cameras, and almost none of them had video cameras.

        In the 2010s, about 200,000 people visited the lake each year. And nearly all of them had cameras with video capability. So statistically, you'd expect the number of photos purporting to show Nessie each year to have increased by about 100-fold, and the number of videos (i.e. mysterio

      • What if there were some huge undocumented caves somewhere off the depths of the lake that contained something essential for the Pleiosaurs to survive. They don't normally leave the caves, but occasionally one does... they get sick, rise to the surface and get spotted by tourists before dying and sink to the bottom where they are eaten by fish and other organisms.

        Yeah, nonsense I know... but theoretically possible

        Pleiosaurs breath air. Sure, they might hang out in caves a lot of the time for a food supply, but underwater caves make for uncomfortable breathing conditions for a large animal, even if a few happen to have air.

        There is an actual good explanation for the legends, which boil down to credible reports of surprising waves on apparently windless days. The loch is basically a very long and very straight lake. If there were a very gentle and steady breeze, the entire lake could be "tilted" by the wind -- impe

    • The notion that it could be some sort of plesiosaur is just absurd because there would have to be a population of them and that would be impossible to hide even in an ocean much less 7.5 km^3 of water.

      Why would it need to be a population of them? You mean to tell me plesiosaurs don't have lifespans of a few million years? I'm shocked!

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by aevan ( 903814 )
        Ah, but what if they were capable of parthenogenesis, but only one of their clutch survives siblicide (low resources driving it) to reach adulthood, which is assured as their natural predators died out millions of years ago. Then one day the young supplants the old and the cycle continues - Nessie is dead, Long Live Nessie....

        The original Loch Ness Monster has been expired 15 megannum, and is rotting like a corpse in Patagonia~
    • There's a conspiracy theory that many "extinct" animals and cryptozoology animals are actually just things which evolved the ability to become invisible. The mechanism is actually known - the company Quantum Stealth makes it, but it's virtually impossible to scale up (it requires chip fabrication technologies to make transistor-scale resonators at the wavelength of light over an entire surface of an object and/or through it. Interestingly, life is REALLY good at making nano-scale devices and taking advant

    • The notion that it could be some sort of plesiosaur is just absurd because there would have to be a population of them and that would be impossible to hide even in an ocean much less 7.5 km^3 of water.

      In real units, that's three million Olympic swimming pools, one of which contains a plesiosaur.

    • There is no giant monster.

      True. It's not that big. Barely the size of an elephant.

  • Homeopathy About to Be Debunked. Pictures at 11! (Score:3)

    by moehoward ( 668736 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @10:53AM (#56659310)

    Oh, lord. You seriously think that we will finally put the lunatics to bed with a DNA test. And you seriously believe that they even believe in DNA.

    For god's(tm) sake, there is still a Flat Earth Society.

    Though I do sort of love it when smart people get trolled like this.

  • Nessie left for outer space to visit the Octopus world. Octopodes are just here until their semester ends.

  • Why bother.

    • Why bother.

      It's what this professor does anyway. That he can do it in Loch Ness and mention the monster to gain some headlines and perhaps some funding is just something to add spice to his normal research career.

  • The price of the genetic testing (Score:3)

    by Dwedit ( 232252 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @11:39AM (#56659590) Homepage

    The price of the genetic testing will be about $3.50.

  • Jeremy Wade checked it out.

    Lochness connects to the ocean and occasionally gets seals, sturgeon, killer whales and dolphins.

    Case closed.

  • So if they catch one, thwy will be able to identify it.

    I think he's got a better chance of winning lotto

  • Champ (Score:3)

    by Topwiz ( 1470979 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2018 @02:22PM (#56660532)

    Lake Champlain supposedly has a monster known as Champ. The story is that Samuel de Champlain saw it when he first discovered the lake.

    I saw something suspicious in two nearby lakes, Lake George in New York and Lake Bomoseen in Vermont. What at first appeared like a large creature with humps was actually several pike or sturgeon travelling nose to tail just barely under the surface.

  • ....I didn't know shadows and reflections had DNA.

  • There has never been a better time to buy your Nessie stuffed sea creature collection, bauble-head memorabilia, creepy DNA ("not to be mistaken for genuine DNA from any mythical undersea creatures") VHS tapes of Bigfoot claiming to witness an 'up-close-and-personal' encounter with the creature

  • Nessie never was DNA compliant ...

  • I doubt anything could be found, but if we imagine a giant specimen of an endogenous species, DNS sampling would not reveal anything of interest.

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