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Science

How Academia Still Struggles With Sexual Harassment (buzzfeed.com) 345

New submitter Dr. Scatterplot writes: Richard Feynman is celebrated as a brilliant scientist and idiosyncratic character. He is also someone who today might be accused of sexual harassment. That is, if his students felt empowered to report him. Whether his department would have done anything back then is a different matter. How far should academic communities go to protect their intellectual capital, at the expense of further harm to their students, past and present? UC Berkeley and exoplanet astronomers are walking that line with prominent professor and exoplanet discoverer Geoff Marcy. "Four women alleged that Marcy repeatedly engaged in inappropriate physical behavior with students, including unwanted massages, kisses, and groping. As a result of the findings, the women were informed, Marcy has been given 'clear expectations concerning his future interactions with students,' which he must follow or risk 'sanctions that could include suspension or dismissal.''
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How Academia Still Struggles With Sexual Harassment

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 10, 2015 @03:59PM (#50700141)

    It's the conflict between universities wanting to be an open environment of learning, education, and research (i.e. their fucking job) and actually making money. Universities literally make money on the discoveries of their researchers. So unfortunately they get plenty of leeway when it comes to this, because most universities aren't willing to actually fight a tenured professor on this.

    Meanwhile, universities adopted extremely stringent rules on campus rape. It's not like they don't believe this is a problem. But they sure as hell do believe that students are expendable but professors aren't.

    (Personally, I think university sexual harassment and rape proceedings should have power to fire tenured professors - tenure is supposed to protect professors with unpopular opinions, not professors who sexually harass their students.)

    • by HiThere ( 15173 ) <(charleshixsn) (at) (earthlink.net)> on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:16PM (#50700199)

      Unfortunately, accusations of sexual harassment are often easy to create to punish politically incorrect beliefs or actions.

      It's a real problem, and I don't see any easy solution. There is a strong cultural tradition that says that women are supposed to protest against pursuit, even when that's what they really want, and there's no easy way to tell.

      Clearly the only safe procedure is to immediately desist upon request, but there's also a strong cultural tradition that says this is "unmanly". Whoops!

      We seem to be groping towards a tradition where honesty is demanded on both sides, but getting there is causing a lot of people a lot of problems. For a minor example of the kind of problem from a few decades ago "Should a man hold a door open for a woman?". For awhile you would receive abuse no matter HOW you answered that. (From different groups, but still abuse.) For that matter just last week I heard a woman saying (as a compliment) to a man that it had been years since the last time a man held a door open for her. She still saw that the the proper polite behavior.

      Now note that the question of holding a door open never had the degree of seriousness attached to it that "inappropriate advances" had. OTOH, under the old standard the professor would be forbidden to approach the female student no matter how provocative she was. So (as reported) he was following neither the old standard nor the developing standard.

      In this case the only answer I see is "life logs". If either was wearing a life log, then the situation would not be in doubt, and in *THAT* case I think that there should be the ability to remove tenure. But there should also be a right of appeal, though to who? The administration or the faculty? Whichever of those two groups wasn't running the prior proceedings would be my first cut at an answer, but one might also consider whether the students should have a say in this.

      • by PseudoThink ( 576121 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:28PM (#50700241)
        I offered to pay for a recording device for my friend, who was regularly sexually harassed by her faculty adviser. She decided against it, mainly because she felt trapped in her situation. Getting another adviser (either by seeking one or reporting the abuse of hers) would mean abandoning years of work (and racking up more debt), which could not simply be resumed with another adviser.
        • Try to do it covertly, get the qualification you are after and a new job, and then sue the individual and the institution on the basis of the evidence you've got. Should pay off the debts nicely. Ultimately hitting institutions in the wallet is the way that will make a real difference, and the technology now exists to ensure that decent evidence can be obtained.
        • Yes this is a serious problem. A graduate adviser has a tremendous amount of power over their students and its easy for that to lead to abuse. It makes sense for universities to ban any sexual / romantic contact between students and professors for this reason.

          I haven't personally seen this, but it doesn't surprise me at all that it happened. I have no practical advice to offer to someone in her situation either. Even with proof enough to get her professor fired, or even convicted - her career is badly dama

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        There is a strong cultural tradition that says that women are supposed to protest against pursuit, even when that's what they really want, and there's no easy way to tell.

        Clearly the only safe procedure is to immediately desist upon request, but there's also a strong cultural tradition that says this is "unmanly". Whoops!

        Are you fucking serious? If they say stop, you fucking stop. End of discussion. No matter how much of a blow to your manhood you perceive it to be.

        No easy way to tell? Jesus Christ.

        • by tnk1 ( 899206 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @06:11PM (#50700581)

          In the context of this case, I quite agree.

          The professor is in a position of power, or at least respect, in an organization like a university. He shouldn't be hitting on the students. Period.

          I know there is a long history of professors banging co-eds, and sometimes that's fully consensual between adults, but even so, professors should not be playing cat and mouse intimacy with their peers let alone their students. This is a workplace matter, not a mating dance. If a woman does want to get busy with a professor, and is playing a coy game with him, who cares? It isn't unmanly for him to refuse to play the game, it's professional for him to refuse to become involved. Surely a professor should not be taking a page from the caveman manual on intergender relationships to justify his pursuit.

          As a manager, I don't get to give my female employees massages, and I'd demur even if a particularly attractive one straight up asked me to. Why? Because the workplace is the wrong place for that and I have a substantial effect on her career if we were to get involved or if there was even the suggestion that we were involved. So why are professors supposed to be special? Do they have no professional ethics?

          All that should be necessary is that there are witnesses to the behavior. The woman herself shouldn't even need to come forward if third parties can vouch for it.

          I admit that there is a potential for issues when anonymous claims are made. There does need to be a way of dealing with that fairly and honestly. You should be allowed to face your accuser if accused of such a crime, but at the same time, there has to be understanding that the victims are in a difficult position.

        • If they say stop, you fucking stop.

          Interestingly, the codes of conduct for fan conventions [cthulhucon.com] are the venues I've seen which state this almost completely unambiguously and with the most clarity.

        • by guises ( 2423402 )
          Are you deliberately misreading that? It's not like "playing hard to get" was a phrase that some rapist just made up one day, it's a real thing that really happens. A lot. It doesn't matter if you don't like it, it's still a real thing that really happens. A lot.
          • Are you deliberately misreading that? It's not like "playing hard to get" was a phrase that some rapist just made up one day, it's a real thing that really happens. A lot. It doesn't matter if you don't like it, it's still a real thing that really happens. A lot.

            It does happen--studies show somewhere in the 20-40% of women range at some point refuse sexual advances when they want them. But you shouldn't assume that's what's happening, because 20-40% at *some* point saying one thing and meaning another, no matter how big your ego is, you should not assume they are talking about YOU.

          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by joe_frisch ( 1366229 )

            But that doesn't matter.
            The imbalance of power between an academic adviser and a student is too large for there to be any reasonable concept of consent. He can take years from her life, possibly ruin her academic future. It is his responsibility to avoid any sort of sexual contact. His only excuse for any sort of sexual interaction with her is if she raped him.

      • by godrik ( 1287354 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:36PM (#50700277)

        That is the main problem with sexual harassement. Once a sexual harassement case appear, the consequences of being wrong will be terrible in either case:
        1/ either you let a sexual harasser free.
        2/ or you destroy the life of an innocent.

        Neither of these options are preferable. And because it is so hard to get evidence of these, it often ends in "he said/she said". So everyone wants to tiptoe around it.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        " There is a strong cultural tradition that says that women are supposed to protest against pursuit, even when that's what they really want, and there's no easy way to tell. "

        Wrong. If a woman likes you she will let you know subtly.Do you seriously think a woman is going to protest against the advances of someone they are romantically attracted to? Understanding the nuance between friendliness and flirting is something most geeks fail to understand or realize it even exists.

        "Clearly the only safe procedure

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          A lot depends on the woman, the culture, her personal attitudes and experiences, and how she actually feels about the man in question. For myself I've found Eastern European women to be quite forthright about what they want or don't, while American women run the gamut. In some places and for some women immediately responding in the positive to an approach, even a welcome one, is considered somewhat slutty. And it must be said, by far the most ferocious criticism of women for so-called "slutty" behaviour com

        • by sjames ( 1099 )

          Try watching any movie involving romance up to the late '80s or so. You'll be surprised.

      • For a minor example of the kind of problem from a few decades ago "Should a man hold a door open for a woman?". For awhile you would receive abuse no matter HOW you answered that. (From different groups, but still abuse.) For that matter just last week I heard a woman saying (as a compliment) to a man that it had been years since the last time a man held a door open for her. She still saw that the the proper polite behavior.

        Door opening is initiated by the female, and so cannot be harassment. She slows down, and the man gets to the door first. If she doesn't slow down, then the man has to run ahead, which makes him look silly. If she doesn't slow down, then she isn't a lady, and he shouldn't run for her. We don't have a shortage of polite men, we have women instead of ladies.

      • "Should a man hold a door open for a woman?"

        The answer is easy: hold the door open no matter if it is a man or woman. Why should sex matter in being polite?

        • by jedidiah ( 1196 )

          That's not politeness, that's treating someone as a weak inferior. It's too easy to be mistaken for chauvanism.

          • So true! I too, slam the door in the face of my co-workers. It teaches them to keep up with me and walk faster.

      • "Should a man hold a door open for a woman?"

        I bet the answer is the same as "Does this dress make me look fat?" :-)

      • For a minor example of the kind of problem from a few decades ago "Should a man hold a door open for a woman?"

        For those who weren't around then, the term that was applied to this at the time was, and I kid you not, "non-contact rape". Yep, holding a door open for someone, a.k.a. "common courtesy", was labelled as a form of rape when it was a man holding the door for a woman.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Actually, academia _needs_ to protect "total dicks". The history of great scientific discovery has quite a few ow them. For example, apparently Newton was a "total dick".

      Incidentally, the traditional countermeasure to this behavior is a full-arm slap to the face. Apparently, many women are to wimpy to administer these today, so the bad behavior continues.

  • by godrik ( 1287354 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:06PM (#50700175)

    "How far should academic communities go to protect their intellectual capital, at the expense of further harm to their students, past and present?"

    As a male university professor, my answer to this is very clear. We should not protect them. For many reasons:
    1/ You begin brilliant does not mean you can do whatever you want.
    2/ For most of us, we can do our research from a prison cell.
    3/ Our students are the main product of academic life. We all love to believe that our research is the most important. But realistically we have the opportunity to touch the mind (the mind I said!) of hundreds of students each year. They will be our legacy, let's make it good one!

    • Exactly, it seems like if you have an employee who is incapable of not causing harm to your business and/or customers, he's more of a liability than an asset and you let him go. If you can keep him around but out of contact with female students, you can possibly still leverage what he brings to the table with minimal risk of damage assuming he can produce sufficient to compensate for losing him on the cash cow. If he is such a liability that no amount of brilliance can compensate, you must let him go and ho

    • As a male university professor, my answer to this is very clear. We should not protect them.

      I completely agree...but we need to be careful that these accusations have evidence to back them up. If you just rely on a handful of students to make accusations then you risk scenarios where students can threaten false accusations for better grades. I think the real dilemma is when is the evidence strong enough to act on so that the guilty do not go free and the innocent do not get punished? Set the the threshold too high and you protect the guilty, set it too low and you can't effectively teach and do r

      • by godrik ( 1287354 )

        I completely aggree with this. I am not saying we should throw them to the lions. Just let the process work in the most transparent way. When the story reaches you, contact the authorities and let the investigation take its course. In the meantime, offer administrative leave to the instructor and to postpone the class to the student, offer legal and psychological advice to both. I don't know what else the institution can do.

    • "How far should academic communities go to protect their intellectual capital, at the expense of further harm to their students, past and present?"

      As a male university professor, my answer to this is very clear. We should not protect them.

      What about a scenario such as one of your female students takes a dislike to you and writes a blog that you sexually harassed her, gets a friend to back her up, and take this to your university administration staff? It might be a fun thing to do for someone who's lagging academically for instance. Would it be fair to just sentence you and lock away the key because your work could be continued from prison? From a societal point of view this could also be beneficial because your productivity would go up if yo

      • by godrik ( 1287354 )

        In this scenario, the university can not know if I am guilty or innocent. Therefore, it can not side with me and it can not side with the student. The only position for the university is not to protect me and let the legal system sort it out.
        At no point did I say that the university should throw the instructor to the lions. I am saying that it should not protect the instructor because it is not its institutional responsibility. The university should leave it to the lawyers. There is no upside for the univer

        • Seems like an excellent response and quite right for institutions to act in this manner. Only thing I would question is the practicalities of the time in-between the legal system sorts out cases of sexual harassment. These things can end up on the front page of a local newspaper very quickly and before the case is played out pressure can be applied to an institution to "sort it out". Also, the mud may stick on the staff member in the spotlight even if, like in this article, the surrounding published content

    • If you're at Berkeley, your students are not the main product of academic life. Direct research funding provides more university administrative funds than student fees at just about every UC, and the schools are structured around that economic reality. The guy we're talking about here is an astronomer; there hasn't been growth in professional astronomy jobs in 40 years. Overproduction of astronomers is not a legacy anyone is shooting for here.

      At high levels, there are serious dollars involved. UCSD and US

  • As long as there's something for someone to gain, expect the "struggle with sexual harassment" to continue. Here's to the day no one can benefit by dividing people and organizing one side against the other. Maybe someday our society will reach that level of enlightenment.

  • by Applehu Akbar ( 2968043 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:18PM (#50700205)

    Because sexuality and talent in any given academic discipline are independent variables, academia has to deal with various kinds of harassment in exactly the same way as any other place of work. Unfortunately it is unable to, because campuses are increasingly being colonized by the sort of toxic misandrists who could not find a job anywhere else, and so are making academia their private fiefdom. So long as their definition of harassment is "anything that men like," the Feynmans of the future will have to find homes in private research institutes.

  • by PseudoThink ( 576121 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:21PM (#50700213)
    Two of my friends were trapped with a faculty adviser who was incredibly abusive (verbally) toward one, and regularly sexually harassed the other. On a daily basis, for years. They tolerated his abuse for so long because they felt they had no choice. Getting a different adviser would mean abandoning their work (in theoretical mathematics), setting them back a ton of money (in academic loans) and years of work/research. Reporting the adviser's abuse would result in the same penalties for them.

    It was a messed up power dynamic of which their adviser was likely fully aware and certainly took full advantage. Even after obtaining their PhD's, my friends can't do much about it. They still need the adviser's support as a reference, for getting published, and they just want to put it all behind them.
    • by ADRA ( 37398 )

      Gee, that couldn't possibly propagate such behaviour on and on forever now could it. I feel sad for your friends, but ultimately their inability to act is why nothing changes. Call me victim blaming, I see it as being very clear. If you don't change your circumstances and nobody knows about it, how would you ever expect a different outcome? What could you do when your friends were being torn down?

      Small story, similar vein. A lady friend of mine worked as an accuntant at a firm and her boss (the last one any

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:23PM (#50700219)

    How many female students approach their male professors each year, attempting to use sex as a bargaining chip? Those visits during office hours, exhibiting cliched behaviour like dropping a pencil to bend over and retrieve it. Flirting, quick furtive touching, inquiring about "extra credit," occasionally even flatly and outright making a proposition to trade sexual favors in exchange for a passing grade. I'm old, paunchy, balding, unattractive; I know precisely what these misguided young women are up to, as they're certainly not after my good looks or great fortune. Such harassment is common at many campuses and yet I see no prominent feminists standing up to decry this behaviour.

    • by x0ra ( 1249540 )
      but, how can this be ? Aren't women always the victims of perverted ugly old fat tenured professors ?
    • by techno-vampire ( 666512 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @06:18PM (#50700615) Homepage
      I sympathize with you, but as a male, I don't personally consider that to be harassment because there's no threat, either explicit or implicit involved. When a professor treats a student like that, there's always the implication that the student's grade depends to some extent on what happens, but unless the student tries to blackmail the professor with false claims of impropriety, it's hard to see how it can be called harassment. ICBW, of course, but as of right now, that's how I see it.
  • Exceptions are made for the exceptional. It is not a right or wrong moral conundrum so much as it is the way the World works.

    The problem with social justice is not with its primary mission; striving to make the World a fairer place is a lofty goal indeed. It's just that, realistically, the World and life itself are inherently not so fair... and attempting to eradicate unfairness from life is every bit a fool's errand.

    The World is not black and white. If a Nazi child molester with leprosy showed up at your

    • by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:39PM (#50700287)

      Exceptions are made for the exceptional. It is not a right or wrong moral conundrum so much as it is the way the World works.

      you are morally bankrupt.

      • Exceptions are made for the exceptional. It is not a right or wrong moral conundrum so much as it is the way the World works.

        you are morally bankrupt.

        I don't know about bankrupt.

        Sure, there's an occasional supply & demand imbalance, but that's precisely the point.

        If every slight, real and imagined, continues to create great umbrage... well, this power held by the electronic mob will prove fleeting as folks tire of the wolf-cry of injustice.

    • I could swear there was an episode of Babylon 5 with a Nazi scientist [imdb.com]. Some favors come with too high a price.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Very insightful. It is always shades of gray (and worse, which shade it is depends on perspective), even though a large part of the population is too dependent on being told what to think to be able to see that. People that can only see black and white end up destroying morality utterly.

      Case in point: What kind of Nazi? On that only talks, or one that does? What kind of child? A real-world one (e.g. below 14) or an "American" one (i.e. 17 years, 11 months and 29 days)? And what kind of molestation? Actual r

  • It's buzzfeed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kuzb ( 724081 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:27PM (#50700235)

    Case dismissed. Why does this trash keep getting posted here.

  • by nickweller ( 4108905 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:50PM (#50700333)
    "when he was a young, boyish looking professor at Cornell, Feynman used to pretend to be a student so he could ask undergraduate women out .. Feynman .. trying to get women in bars to sleep with him .. documented affairs with two married women"

    Have these fragile flowers ever thought of saying no to sexual advances. What Feynman does/did with his dick - as long as it's between consenting adults - is nobody's business except his.

    "It's not surprising to find these anecdotes disturbing and even offensive"

    Well then, don't read about them.

    "the propensity to lie on the beach and watch girls"

    OH, shock horror !

    "actions .. that were considered acceptable or amusing in 1950 would quite rightly cause instant outrage in 2014."

    No they wouldn't, it's just that the political-correctness-feminista dictatorship would try and get you fired if you say any different.

    Richard Feynman, sexism and changing perceptions of a scientific icon [scientificamerican.com]
    • by godrik ( 1287354 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:56PM (#50700353)

      You quote : "when he was a young, boyish looking professor at Cornell, Feynman used to pretend to be a student so he could ask undergraduate women out .. Feynman .. trying to get women in bars to sleep with him .. documented affairs with two married women"

      I have no idea whether this quote is correct or not. But pretending to be a student seems to pretty much rule out sexual harassment. You do not sexually harass by pretending to have less control on the other person than you actually have. Or you are the worse harasser in history...

    • "the propensity to lie on the beach and watch girls"

      OH, shock horror !

      They forgot to mention that he was once overheard calling someone .bro. He should have been deleted on the spot for that transgression.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 10, 2015 @04:55PM (#50700345)

    After reading the linked piece about Feynman, it doesn't seem that his alleged sexism (and I'm not claiming it did or did not exist) is at all comparable to what Prof Marcy has been accused of. Feynman may have been a "typical sexist male of the '50s", but Marcy is being accused of criminal acts including sexual assault.

    • No matter how you slice it, it is grossly unfair to judge the behaviour of a 1950's "ladies man" by 21st century social norms. The thing that upset some people when he was alive was the fact that Feynman was not ashamed of his sexuality and often bragged he had played the bongo drums at a "strip joint".
    • After reading the linked piece about Feynman, it doesn't seem that his alleged sexism (and I'm not claiming it did or did not exist) is at all comparable to what Prof Marcy has been accused of. Feynman may have been a "typical sexist male of the '50s", but Marcy is being accused of criminal acts including sexual assault.

      Assuming that they did what they are accused of, there are far more Feynmans than Marcys.

      Which is precisely why the SJWs want to treat the two as the same. You can't make much hay out of rare straws.

  • Accusations without strong proofs mean nothing. If there is a single incident that has serious factual credibility then the man should be fired on the first offence. But these situations are rarely filmed or witnessed by several bystanders. At some point we need to have vey severe punishments for people who make complaints with no evidence at all to back up those claims. The sports team at Duke leaps to mind. Those boys spent a fortune on lawyers. Their team was ruined and their school year and futu
  • by sethstorm ( 512897 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @06:39PM (#50700689) Homepage

    It seems like it only counts if the victim is female - especially in cases like Amherst where they prosecuted the victim (male) and defended the perpetrator (female).

    Do something when the rules are consistently applied to everyone.

  • by MouseTheLuckyDog ( 2752443 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @07:13PM (#50700829)

    I don't see any proof that Feynman was sexist.
    The only thing I see is a a bunch of stories of how he tried to get laid in his off hours by women he had no professional relationship with.

    Is it trying to get laid? That's called being a man. ( Well at least wanting to get laid is. Trying is also a function of courage and moral values. )
    Is it telling stories about it? That's just being honest.
    Is it trying to pick up women at bars? Ever been in a bar?

    • "I don't see any proof that Feynman was sexist."

      He was an out heterosexual. You young whippersnappers won't believe that this sort of thing went on at campuses everywhere in the Fifties and Sixties, before the Maoist committees cracked down.

  • by Theovon ( 109752 ) on Saturday October 10, 2015 @07:24PM (#50700897)

    First of all, I’m happily married and would not want to violate what my wife and I have agreed to, whether she knew about it or not.

    But the university I work for (along with most others) take inappropriate behavior very seriously. I have had to pass certifications on this, so I have put some thought into the issue. When you are in a position of power relative to someone else, there is just way too much potential for abuse of that power. If you understand that underlying principle, then you can safely date without causing any harm.

    Unless your university has very specific fules, I would suggest perhaps a few rules of thumb that should keep you out of trouble:
    - Don’t ever date a student in your own department.
    - Staff in your own department, maybe, but have to be handled carefully — avoid any you might have some authority over.
    - Faculty in your own department are pretty much free game, especially if they’re tenured.
    - Faculty and staff at any level in any other department are free game.
    - Graduate students in other departments, maybe, but have to be handled carefully — prefer older ones.
    - Never date an undergraduate student, even if they’re nontraditional.
    - Any student who has graduated and is no longer a student is okay, but you have to be careful about others suspecting that the relationship might have started before they graduated, which could get you into trouble.

    Also, just because you first meet someone off campus (at a bar, say) doesn’t mean that these rules don’t apply. If you find out that someone you’re talking to at a bar is an undergrad at your school, you really need to break it off immediately. I don’t care how turned on you are by each other at that moment, the risk of that biting you in the ass later is just too great.

    And remember, this isn’t all about you protecting yourself from getting into trouble. It’s about protecting your students from psychological harm. I’m in Computer Science, and we just don’t have enough women in STEM fields. We have to make sure women (and men for that matter) feel that they’re going into a safe educational environment where people in authority are not going to prey on them. Students should earn their education and their grades, not buy them with favors, and they need to be able to be awarded the education and grades they’ve worked for without predators interfering.

    • by Alomex ( 148003 )

      - Never date an undergraduate student, even if theyâ(TM)re nontraditional.

      I disagree, a very good friend of mine, a 35 year old divorcee who was a mature undergrad student dated and eventually married a young professor from another department who was 3 years younger than her. Are you suggesting she's incapable of approaching this relationship of her own free will? Does she suddenly become mentally incompetent by virtue of her gender?

  • I've seen several cases of sexual harassment filed in various companies I worked for over the years, and not once was the guilty party fired. They were required to attend "sensitivity" courses. They lost their bonuses for the year. They were passed over for promotions. Sometimes they were reassigned to lesser roles in the business.

    But they were not fired.

    Why should academics be held to higher standards than those in industry?

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