NSF Report Flawed; Americans Do Not Believe Astrology Is Scientific 326
RichDiesal writes "A new report (PDF) from the National Science Foundation, which we discussed a few days ago, states that roughly 40% of Americans believe astrology to be scientific. This turns out to be false; most of those apparently astrology-loving Americans have actually confused astrology with astronomy. In a 100-person Mechanical Turk study with a $5 research budget, I tested this by actually asking people to define astrology. Among those that correctly defined astrology, only 10% believe it to be scientific; among those that confused astrology for astronomy, 92% believe 'astrology' to be scientific."
Really good question (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Really good question (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Really good question (Score:5, Funny)
Well, duh. We don't speak English here in the States. We speak 'murican.
Re: (Score:2)
Texas? Who cares how foreigners spell American.
Re:Really good question (Score:5, Funny)
Shhhh. Don't offend them. They have guns.
Re:Really good question (Score:5, Funny)
This is America, we ALL have guns!
Re: (Score:2)
If I can't make fun of Texans, then that takes all the joy out of Texas.
Re: (Score:2)
Those of us who do have guns dont get offended very easily.
While this is mostly a true statement that I support, it isn't 100%. Just ask the widow whose husband got shot by that ex-cop because he wouldn't quit texting during the previews of a movie. It wasn't in Texas, but it still applies.
Re: (Score:2)
From what I've read, there might be more to the story than "Victim refused to put phone down so perp shot him."
Re: (Score:3)
I thought a merkin was like a wig, but for pubic hair.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
So instead of 40% of Americans having a poor concept of science, it looks like 40% of Americans have a poor concept of English. Is that any better?
In terms of measuring the level of acceptance of pseudoscience, yes, it would be a favorable adjustment to make. But it's perfectly OK with me if you want to change the subject and rant about (lack of) English skills in the general population.
Re: (Score:2)
If you have the good sense to see the meta-story, it's unchanged: "People are dumb".
FTFY
Re: (Score:2)
"If you have the good sense to see the meta-story, it's unchanged: "Americans are dumb"."
As Isaac Asimov famously wrote, Wrong is Relative [tufts.edu].
On the contrary, the "meta-story" is changed a great deal. Given a choice, I would far rather people be scientifically literate than English-literate. (As long as they are basically literate to begin with.)
Mistaking one word for another that has only one letter difference is a FAR lesser error than, for example, mistaking Creationism for real science.
one word for snow (Score:3)
This isn't about English literacy, either, unless you think that most people regard "debt" and "deficit" as abstract coinages passed down from Cleopatra's personal mentat.
Here's how the lizard brain encodes language in people with an aspy deficit:
jackpot = pussy
debt/deficit = no pussy
astronomy/astrology = preoccupations of pointy hats who get no pussy
There's simply no need in this model to discriminate words from the
Re: (Score:2)
Just because he likes to think he (or his country) is superior to the US, does not mean that he is not "a special, unique snowflake."
I happen to believe that many things about the US are superior and believe that I am unique while realizing that not everything about me is unique,
Re:Really good question (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And Herpetology is... well, yeah.
Well, some of the do have a lot of warts....
Re: (Score:2)
The thing is, originally, astrology *was* a very scientific term. It refered to the practical application of astronomy to predict natural phenomena, such as when eclipses would occur, what time of year a partiicular star would be at its highest position in the sky, when planetary conjunctions would occur, etc.
Somewhere along the line, somebody got it in their head that the events which happen on earth and in individual people's lives are somehow causally connected to the movements of celestial objects a
Re: Really good question (Score:4, Interesting)
The horoscope is simply a diagram of the position of the major planets, moon and Zodiac constellations, as such is quite scientific. Astrologers often make predictions of future events based on a person's birth horoscope and the current horoscope which is quite unscientific. Historically astronomers would cast horoscopes and do such saying for their rich patrons to fimance their scientific endeavors
Re: (Score:2)
I imagine most just don't know what "Astrology" means off the tops of their head, and they probably think it's some scientific term for astronomy
All pseudo-science tries to utilize scientific sounding jargon in an attempt to sound more credible.
Therefore, if we are to to better educate Americans to prevent them from falling prey to pseudo-science mambo-jumbo, it is equally important to sharpen their vocabulary skills. Those who push astrology deliberate try to capitalize on it's perceived confusion with astronomy. Astrologers would probably look at the fact that the majority of people confuse it with astronomy as a positive. We shouldn't take any
Re: (Score:2)
Applied kinesiology
Baraminology
Chirology
Cryptozoology
Graphology
Iridology
Phrenology
Physiognomy
Pseudoarchaeology (well okay, that has pseudo right in the name)
Reflexology
Rumpology
I really hope that "well, it has -ology" is not something you use a rule of them when encountering new concepts.
Re: Really good question (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not knowing the difference between two similar looking words isn't that uncommon. Average people don't have to pay attention to astronomy or astrology on a daily basis, and stuff is going to get forgotten.
It doesn't mean anything except that people got the meaning of the word confused with another word. That happens pretty much everywhere on the planet, and says nothing about Americans.
Re: (Score:2)
So instead of 40% of Americans having a poor concept of science, it looks like 40% of Americans have a poor concept of English. Is that any better?
Oh, I'm certain it's much higher than that; all this proves is that 40% of the people polled don't know the difference between these 2 particular terms.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Eh – the words are reasonably close. Personally, I always get cosmetology and cosmology mixed up.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Really good question (Score:5, Insightful)
That is probably most accurate.
Re: (Score:3)
With the number of supposedly educated people on /. who don't know the difference between "their", "there", and "they're", or "its" and "it's", or "your" and "you're", this doesn't surprise me at all.
Re: (Score:2)
The point is: the parent implied people don't know the difference of owning some thing (your) or being something (you're) ... on top of that you imply that people make grammar errors, while they are merly doing spelling errors. It would be easier perhaps if they got taught that you're is an abreviation for you are.
Year, I'm with you as I'm typing on an I pad and use two languages usually with a random frensh or italian word mixed in ... autocorrection is aleays off.
(For some reason, my iPad refused to even
Re: (Score:2)
Were taught.
And then there's the people who write "would of" instead of "would've".
And that one guy (not on /.) who used "weight" instead of "wait"....
Re: (Score:2)
Well,
Correct writing is difficult some people accept that, some don't and surely some are just lazy.
Re: (Score:2)
Correct coding is difficult too. I'm assuming that people don't write code the way they write English, so I have to go with "some are just lazy".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Do you know the difference between psychology and psychiatry? Or the difference between ophthalmology and optometry? How about the difference between the Internet and an intranet? Or even the difference between affect and effect? And you've never confused any of these terms, nor known anybody of intelligence to confuse these terms?
Similar sounding words for similar concepts cause confusion. This is not particularly surprising, nor is it particularly indicative of intelligence. Language is complicated,
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I searched/skimmed the NSF paper, and it wasn't obvious that they took any pains to define astrology for their interviewees. So you very well may be right; good job.
Exactly what I thought, but there was no chance of making that point in the prior post due to the overwhelming piling on of "Dumb Americans" posts.
Still confusing that term isn't smart, but not recognizing that people "skim" when reading or listening to poll questions is equally dumb.
Then again, mechanical turk is hardly something to attract the Average American, or the Average Adult Human for that matter. It is already pre-selected for reasonably educated people who are at least quite computer literate.
Re: (Score:2)
... more than the absolute figures. Of course that could simply mean that fewer people know the difference between astrology and astronomy, but that still indicates a dumbing down.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Another factor may be the context of the interview. You will get different responses if you quickly pull someone aside and start in on your questions, versus a scheduling a volunteer.
Late night comedians prey on this. Find a person on the street, perhaps on their way to work, then ask them some random questions. The results can be funny, but the person isn't stupid, just not in the right frame of mind, worried about how they look in TV, etc. Phone surveys must suffer from the same thing. It was just s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Which means there is a bit of a flaw in the person's experiment. Those definitions of astrology are ones that would mostly be used by pe
Re: (Score:2)
If the data didn't support the conclusion, and they should have known it, and they published it anyway, that is bad science. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
Yes, but (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yes, but (Score:5, Funny)
Depends on the time frame. Astropsychics claim to be able to make predictions about years in the future. Astrophysicists claim to be able to do that for billions of years in the future.
I called it. (Score:5, Funny)
Even more of them will confuse cosmetology with cosmology. Someone trying to weigh a poll to make Americans look uneducated could have done much better.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:I called it. (Score:5, Funny)
They probably cut science class one too many times and never took the make-up tests.
Re: (Score:2)
Hmm, I was getting this close to finishing up my Doctorate in Cosmetology.
Re:I called it. (Score:5, Funny)
When cosmetologists work on a model, they refine and test their techniques until they can successfully predict how everything will turn out, and in fact time proves their predictions right. To put it another way, if they consistently gave a bad haircut, they would go out of business. Because it turns out that models can't stand a bad haircut.
Climatologists, on the other hand... well, don't take it from me. Read Feynman on cargo cult science [columbia.edu] in general, and Richard Lindzen on climate alarmism [climatedepot.com] in particular.
Bottom line -- shame on you for lowering cosmetologists to the level of (OK... _some_) climatologists.
Re: (Score:2)
When cosmetologists work on a model, they refine and test their techniques until they can successfully predict how everything will turn out, and in fact time proves their predictions right.
What if it turns out that bad hair days are simply on hiatus?
Re: (Score:2)
Still a problem, but not as bad. (Score:3)
The problem is not that we are mystical idiots, just that we are can not spell and are not sure of the correct pronunciation of words.
Re: (Score:2)
we are can not spell
Nor sentence put together can we. :)
Re: (Score:2)
It is - the remedy for the uneducated masses is education. I don't know of any remedy for superstition. (Just look at the creationists.)
Well, what do you expect? (Score:4, Funny)
Given the state of education, what else would you expect? We're talking about a nation that doesn't even know it's own geography, much less that of neighbours in the world. If they think Toronto or Vancouver are the capital of Canada, how can you expect them to know something like astrology vs. astronomy?
Regardless of whether the majority of the population believes astrology is "scientific" or not, one thing is clear: the population as a whole has a shitty education.
Re: (Score:2)
If you're from Texas, the rest of the US is basically a foreign country.
Re:Well, what do you expect? (Score:5, Funny)
If you're from Texas, that's a belief. If you're not from Texas, it's a wish.
Re: (Score:2)
If they think Toronto or Vancouver are the capital of Canada
Why should they care about trivialities like the capital of Canada? Ottawa is no more a city than Canada is a country.
Re: (Score:3)
Wait, wait, wait.
Who dragged geometry into this?
Heh (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
99% of Americans are idiots; 1.0% run the Country. Much like the UK.
Of course, the 1% who run the show are primarily derived from the 99% who are idiots, so... you know...
Re: (Score:2)
Surveys - be suspicious (Score:5, Informative)
It is easy for surveys to give very misleading results if the questions are not well thought out, or if they have intentionally been designed to produce some result. The media tends to pick up on the more surprising results from surveys so that magnifies the effect in the public perception.
"do you believe in evolution" "do you believe the current theory of evolution is correct" "Do you believe that god was involved in the creation of life" "should students be taught to question scientific theories like evolution". "do you think evolution likely is a correct description of the species we see on earth now" These may seem to be asking the same question, but are really quite different.
Re: (Score:2)
Even worse is "do you believe that evolution is just a theory".
Re: (Score:2)
As the helpful AC pointed out, that's not exactly the way science worked. Calling things "laws" is a bit of a historical artifact. When Newtonian motion was worked out and the laws of thermodynamics were being nutted out the scientists involved thought that they had finally gotten to the bottom of it and they could write laws to codify the way things always behaved. We now realise that they jumped the gun a little. To be elevated to the status of theory is as close to sure as you can get, there is not extra
Re: (Score:2)
Terminology is very tricky, and if people try to treat scientific statements like legal ones they get into trouble. One can talk about "Kepler's laws of planetary motion". A scientist knows that these "laws" are approximations under a limited set of situations, but still very valuable. Works like "theory" and "law" really are somewhat fuzzy. The underlying science is solid, just not the words.
To a large extent science is the art of approximation. We don't know the initial conditions and cannot calculate
Sounds even worse (Score:3)
40% of Americans can't differentiate astrology from astronomy.
When you don't know one of those from the other, what does it matter how you think about their scientific merits?
Re: (Score:2)
40% of Americans can't differentiate astrology from astronomy.
Worse, 40% of Americans don't have the critical thinking skills to understand why that can't be inferred from the data. Confusing two very similar words isn't the same as not understanding the difference between the two areas. Worst of all is the 40% of Americans base their false sense of superiority on knowing some terminology, rather than a substantive understanding.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It seems possible that some of the survey respondents have simply not heard much about astrology, at least under that name. It seems like an interesting question
I agree, that is definitely a potential avenue for further research.
Cosmology vs. Cosmetology (Score:4, Funny)
A friend of mine in 7th grade signed up for a cosmetology class thinking it was cosmology, and boy was he surprised. At least it was only one of those 1 hours per week deals to fill in a gap with our weird rotating schedule (7 classes for 6 periods).
End Women's Suffrage Now! (Score:5, Insightful)
Adam Corrolla and Jimmy Kimmel (and many, many other pranksters) have proven that people really don't know the language, but will gladly treat a misconception with confidence when given just a little nudge.
Either conclusion is troubling (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Probably.
"We should be looking at improving American education standards."
Or "we should be looking at way to improve American education standards."
In any case, our thanks for the case in point.
Star Trek Badges (Score:3)
One of the ads was for "Official Star Trek Badges". Engineering, Command, Medical, Security, and Astrology.... and it took us 10 mins to explain to him.
Dear RichDiesal (Score:2)
Please stop trying to spoil a fun narrative that gave the rest of the world a chance to reaffirm their feelings of superiority. If they ever stop believing Americans are stupid, they might start making it harder for us to tap their phone lines and "secure" communications.
By the way, we have a picture of you and that Buttercup All Grown Up doll, dated last February 17.
Thank you,
Your friends at the NSA
The terms are switched! (Score:2)
'Astrology' means 'the study of stars'. When real scientists began to study stars, this term had already been taken over by crackpots.
So, they adopted 'Astronomy' which is the NAMING of stars, because the more correct term now meant something else.
So, really, astronomy should be called astrology, and astrology should be called bunk.
US science literacy generally better than EU (Score:5, Interesting)
People have actually looked at overall scientific literacy in the US, and it compares favorably to the EU (and the rest of the world):
https://www.sciencenews.org/bl... [sciencenews.org]
Of course, it would be nice if scientific literacy were higher everywhere, including the US.
If... (Score:2)
...these people are confusing astrology with astronomy, then it indicates that they are as stupid as they would be if they thought astrology was scientific.
All I've got to say... (Score:2)
Astrology (Score:2)
At the risk of receiving flames of /. hellfire, I'll admit that I am a professional astrologer. Any astrologer that actually understands the art knows that it's not a science in the conventional definition of the term. It is something between science and art, as it contains elements of both. Observation and correlation play a major part, then so does the harmonization of conceptual understandings, since it is impossible to empirically verify every possible combination of planet, sign, house. The number of v
Re: (Score:2)
No, you are just a liar and a charlatan. If you are using your "magic powers" to bilk money out of clueless people, eventually you will get thrown in jail with Rose Marks.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The most sympathetic skeptical take on it would probably be: http://m8y.org/astrology.txt [m8y.org]
snippet...
"The rules just kind of got there. They don't make any kind of sense except in terms of themselves. But when you start to exercise those rules, all sorts of processes start to happen and you start to find out all sorts of stuff about people. In astrology the rules happen to be about stars and planets, but they could be about ducks and drakes for all the difference it would make. It's just a way of thinking abo
NSF is report NOT flawed if you bother to read it (Score:5, Informative)
If the NSF Report actually stated "that roughly 40% of Americans believe astrology to be scientific," this would be an interesting use of five bucks. But that's not what the report says.
Here's what the NSF report acually writes—and it's actually interesting:
Page 7-6 of the report gives actual details about the survey—speciically, the Science and Technology portion of the General Social Survey" [norc.org]. You can search the GSS survey for the word 'astrology' [berkeley.edu] to see the actual question:
The whole point is that they're asking Americans if they know what the word 'astrology' means.
If there was a mass epidemic of amnesia between 2010 and 2012, I don't remember it. So what caused the reversal in a steady trend that lasted from 1983 to 2010? Why did the number of Americans who know the definition of the word 'astrology' make a sudden and very large negative drop from 2010 to 2012?
This is an interesting result, and to their credit the authors of the NSF report do a good job of accurately reporting their finding without resorting to hyperbole or finger-pointing.
It's not just the US (Score:3)
When I was an undergraduate, the telescope a few miles away was listed in the phone book (remember those?) as the National Radio Astrology Observatory. Nobody really felt like correcting it.
Re:ahhh english (Score:5, Funny)
I absolutely believe that ... astro... something science to be scientific!
It probably has electrolytes too!
Re: (Score:2)
Result of bad terms in the English language (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Go back .... (Score:5, Insightful)
So instead of being scientifically illiterate, USians are just vanilla illiterate?
This $5 study does NOT support that conclusion since the overwhelming majority of Mechanical Turkers are NOT Americans.
Although there there plenty of stupid Americans, America does not have a monopoly on stupidity. There's plenty of competition from the rest of the world.
Re: (Score:2)
This $5 study does NOT support that conclusion since the overwhelming majority of Mechanical Turkers are NOT Americans.
Not that you have provided any source for that assertion, but it's irrelevant anyway. You can set the qualifications for the job requiring them to be American. Studies have shown that while using the Mechanical Turk for social science research is not perfect, it is not wildly inaccurate either [journalistsresource.org]. In fact it works best for exactly this sort of study, a random sampling of the population with no other strict qualifiers.
Re: (Score:2)
> a random sampling of the population with no other strict qualifiers.
Except that they all participate in the Mechanical Turk, which I would suspect self-selects for at least some personality traits if nothing else.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
With some exceptions, the nationality derives from the last part of the country's full name, not from the continent their country is on (Australia excepted of course). Just as a few examples, we have:
Peoples' Republic of China - Chinese
Estados Unidos Mexicanos - Mexican
(Although an archaic designation) Dominion of Canada - Canadian
State of Japan - Japanese
Federated Republic of Brazil - Brazilian
United States of America - American
As far as I can recall, there is only one nation with "of America" as part of
Re: (Score:2)
Only one nation, yes, but we went and confused the issue by naming our country after the continent.
Someone from the continent of Asia is Asian. Someone from the continent of Europe is European. Someone from the continent of Africa is African, and somebody from "The New World" a.k.a The Americas, is American.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)