Next-Gen Spacesuits 123
ambermichelle writes "Outer space is a hostile environment for humans, characterized by an airless vacuum, thermal extremes, ionizing radiation and speeding micro meteoroids. Less well-known are the dangers posed by long-term exposure to microgravity or zero-g conditions, which over time severely saps the strength of astronauts' muscles and bones. Several researchers are working to develop new spacesuit designs that could help counteract these threats as well as avoid some of the familiar drawbacks of current spacesuit models such as bulk, weight and rigidity."
Incentives for Space Travel (Score:2, Interesting)
When astronauts start looking like Samus Aran, with or without the power armor, I expect interest in space travel will increase dramatically.
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Don't worry.
No one is ever going into space again.
There's really nothing there, anyways. Just the fantasies of exploration, by creatures unable to even understand themselves.
Re:Incentives for Space Travel (Score:5, Insightful)
Really. What has mankind to offer the universe, but its appetites and its quest for novelty? Get your act together back home.
Everything out there is different, except you. Your essential problems are portable.
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Re:Incentives for Space Travel (Score:4, Informative)
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my aren't we optimistic...
Re:Incentives for Space Travel (Score:4, Interesting)
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"Because it's not in our nature to do so."
Take another look at your average voter and say that again with a straight face.
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Agreed. Now for the tinfoil hat. We seem to have lost our will to explore space, it's not just money, people hardly care about space travel anymore. Reminds me of the Mule in Asimov the Foundation Series. Remember all the SF stories of Aliens denying us the right to space? Why send ships to stop us when just a few mental tweaks will take care of it? My only hope is breaking the heliosphere is a tripwire like the obelisk in 2001. I know I gotta turn off the TV. But Momma thats where the fun is.
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So what you're saying is.... we should all go buy new shoes?
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It'd be a good start.
There is an inner space, as vast and unexplored as the outer space. The ability to explore it is in your hands today.
Until that is done, the only thing to find outside is just "more of the same."
they'll come in handy... (Score:3, Insightful)
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Does the new suit recycle urine into drinking water, like the old ones did? I read this article with excitement, hoping for some good descriptions of the newer, state-of-the-art in pee-drinking. It doesn't say very much tho. I hope if these do come in handy, there will be plenty of need for this. The pee part, you know. Weeeeee!
Re:they'll come in handy... (Score:4, Funny)
"Does the new suit recycle urine into drinking water,"
Yeah, that could be very useful for other environments than space, such as when global warming turns the earth into a desert.
"Urine and feces are processed in the thigh pads" - Leit Kynes
Re:they'll come in handy... (Score:4, Funny)
"Urine and feces are processed in the thigh pads" - Leit Kynes
Yeah.... I bought the whole urine deal, but not the feces processing. I have pinched some loafs that I seriously doubt any technology, that is wearable, could process into anything useful.
How the fuck can the suit process corn? Corn chips just magically come out of a pocket?
Re:they'll come in handy... (Score:5, Funny)
It's a lot easier if all you ever eat is the stuff that comes out of the thigh pads.
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Isn't there diminishing returns at some point?
If all you ate was literally shit would you not starve to death?
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Re:they'll come in handy... (Score:4, Funny)
"Urine and feces are processed in the thigh pads" - Leit Kynes
Yeah.... I bought the whole urine deal, but not the feces processing. I have pinched some loafs that I seriously doubt any technology, that is wearable, could process into anything useful.
How the fuck can the suit process corn? Corn chips just magically come out of a pocket?
I always assumed that the "processing" just extracted water, leaving some kind of dessicated shit powder that gets dumped. Far more plausible than reprocessing shit into food, though scarcely comfortable or fragrant. In Dune the smell of a Fremen sietch is described as an assault on the nostrils... I think we can guess why.
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How would this work for female astronauts? For males, external catheters and urine collection bags are established technology and could conceivably be incorporated into a close fitting space suit. For a female,. urine collection/recycling in a suit does not seem nearly so straightforward. The collection tube would have to form a permanent (or at least while she is urinating) water-tight seal over her labia otherwise the urine would pool in the suit (or where there is gravity, run down her legs).
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Fetch me the Internapult!
frosty piss (Score:5, Interesting)
was contained in the bladder in one boot in the Apollo pressure-suit designs. I wonder what they'll do for these elastic suits.
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Come on moderators, reward the man for managing an on-topic post on with that subject!
I'm wondering what they'll do too!
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Depends how bothered you are about contaminating the environment... The Apollo spacecraft, like most, just vented it into space. Would that be okay on the moon?
It always seemed odd that they went to so much effort to disinfect everything that went to the moon, then contaminated it all again when the guys touched it.
Jewelry part of the ensemble? (Score:3, Funny)
I'm sure her ear rings will be permitted.
Not the answer (Score:5, Interesting)
We are going to have to come up with solutions on a much grander scale to change the environment, not adapt to it. It's how we humans have taken over the planet and how we will take over space. But we won't do it till we spend a lot more time on earth doing the grunt work (engineering and thinking) instead of spending billions on half baked manned missions to nowhere worthwhile.
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Use centrifugal force at the space station level to implement actual gravity.
Re:Not the answer (Score:4, Interesting)
Use centrifugal force at the space station level to implement actual gravity.
Centripital. And the problem with that is, the structure you're standing in has the same sense of acceleration as the astronaut. It has to be dramatically stronger, and thus heavier, and therefore unworkable in orbit.
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Re:Not the answer (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you explain that in more depth? Doesn't the structure have to be strong anyway to withstand takeoff pressures from Earth?
Only if it's launched in one piece...
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I'd imagine a ring structure built out of a network of thin wires (eg like a suspension bridge o
Re:Not the answer (Score:4, Informative)
For one, the structure is launched in segments. For another, it only has to be strong along it's major axis for launch, but for centrifugal gravity, it must be strong radially from it's axis.
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Why are you assuming that the module(s) couldn't be designed to have the same orientation when deployed as when launched? Skylab did.
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Because if you rotate it that way to generate pseudogravity, you'd end up with tiny floor space and really tall ceilings. Not terribly useful. Skylab had a zero-G environment, so the distinction between floor, wall, and ceiling was unimportant.
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Because if you rotate it that way to generate pseudogravity, you'd end up with tiny floor space and really tall ceilings
Skylab had a diameter of 24 feet, giving each "floor" a area of about 450 sq-ft. That's not huge, but it's as large as some apartments. So what if you have the equivalent of a large house spread out over 4-5 "floors"?
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The absolute size hardly matters, it's a matter of how large is it vs how large could it have been if you did it right. As I said, it hardly mattered for Skylab because it was zero-g.
Floors have weight too and every tiny bit counts. Besides that, there is a fairly sharp gradient when pseudo-gravity is used.
Due to physics, it is easier for us to launch taller cylinders rather than wider ones.
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You seem to be arguing that it's better to just give up on the idea rather than take advantage of the existing strength of any module launched from Earth, just because you want it to sit "sideways".
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No, I argue that given our current launch capabilities and the need to conserve every ounce of weight, we're not yet at a point where it's practical to use pseudo-gravity. As I said before, floors add weight too.
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Centripital. And the problem with that is, the structure you're standing in has the same sense of acceleration as the astronaut. It has to be dramatically stronger, and thus heavier, and therefore unworkable in orbit.
I was under the impression that materials science has come quite a long way since the invention of bones.
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Centrifugal is the correct force for discussing gravity simulation.
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You do know the difference between centripetal and centrifugal force, right? There's only a centripetal force acting on the astronaut's
feet, but there's a centrifugal force acting on his whole body.
Pedantically, there's only a centripetal force acting on the astronaut's feet or there's a centrifugal force acting on his whole body. The former in an inertial reference frame, the latter in an accelerated (specifically, rotating with the station) frame.
Centrifugal is the correct force for discussing gravity simulation.
Definitely.
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oblig xkcd (Score:3)
as in: http://xkcd.com/123/ [xkcd.com]
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Centrifugal force is a pseudoforce, i.e. a force arising from the acceleration of a non-inertial frame of reference.
Gravity is also a pseudoforce [wikipedia.org] - this is the fundamental premise of General Relativity.
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Actually, the far more likely solution is for us to adapt ourselves. Gene therapy to prevent bone loss or muscle atrophy is going to be utterly cheap compared to any solution that involves the design of the spaceship or spacesuit.
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We pretty much know how to make a space wheel now. Gene manipulation to that degree is a hundred years away. My observation still stands - Humans tend to change their environment rather than adapt to it. Although I concede in 100 years that may change radically.
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Well yes, it was pretty much built in to my claim that having humans in space for long enough for this to matter is at least 100 years away. I have my fingers crossed to be proved wrong on that, but I won't be holding my breath.
Re:Not the answer (Score:5, Interesting)
But we won't do it till we spend a lot more time on earth doing the grunt work (engineering and thinking) instead of spending billions on half baked manned missions to nowhere worthwhile.
While I agree to a point, you actually have to eventually do these things in order to see how they work.
Consider Apollo. We didn't just fire up the ol' Saturn V and head to the Moon. You're right that there was lots of design and testing done on Earth. But eventually we flew Apollo 7 [wikipedia.org] in orbit around Earth in order to test the CSM. We flew around the Moon on Apollo 8 [wikipedia.org] to test those procedures (as well as beat them Rooskis to the Moon). Apollo 9 [wikipedia.org] tested the LEM and the extraction procedures in Earth orbit and Apollo 10 [wikipedia.org] tested them in Lunar orbit (as an aside, I have to admit that if I was on the Apollo 10 mission and everything was working out, I'd be tempted to yell "Fuck you, Neil!" into my radio and land on the Moon. What's NASA gonna do?) Not to mention the various unmanned launches before Apollo 7 [wikipedia.org].
Were all those "half-baked" missions of the Apollo program a waste? Are you saying we should have just shot astronauts at the Moon until one of them made it?
Re:Not the answer (Score:5, Informative)
(as an aside, I have to admit that if I was on the Apollo 10 mission and everything was working out, I'd be tempted to yell "Fuck you, Neil!" into my radio and land on the Moon. What's NASA gonna do?)
Watch as you die on the moon because the ascent stage lacked the fuel needed to return the Lunar Module to the Command Module from the surface of the moon.
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In addition, they were collecting gravitational data needed for a clean approach -- I'm not certain, but I'm under the impression they did not process the data in real-time, so it would have been quite risky to try a landing with the old (less accurate) data.
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Good answer--didn't know that. I assume I would have if I had been on the Apollo 10 mission.
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(as an aside, I have to admit that if I was on the Apollo 10 mission and everything was working out, I'd be tempted to yell "Fuck you, Neil!" into my radio and land on the Moon. What's NASA gonna do?) Watch as you die on the moon because the ascent stage lacked the fuel needed to return the Lunar Module to the Command Module from the surface of the moon.
What a place to die, though.
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And the missions you list are just the final testing of Apollo... You also have to consider the basic research and engineering done in the Gemini program. Like the development of rendezvous techniques, flight control techniques, mission design and analysis techniques, etc... etc... Apollo gets all the glory, but a great deal of the real world (as opposed to the ivory tower of the labs an
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Grunt work in the labs and simulators is nothing but an exercise in intellectual masturbation unless and until you go out into the real world and actually see how things work. You don't learn without actually doing.
Egad! It's the 1950's!!! (Score:3, Funny)
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It's like the 1980's [wikipedia.org] all over again!
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Honey, does this spacesuit make me look fat?
Read about these before. (Score:4, Interesting)
I had been watching some of the news and documentaries about the group doing the suits. They still had quite a few hurdles to overcome, as the squeeze suit had not been able to provide enough pressure to reach that critical 1/3rd of an atmosphere. The Article does not seem to indicate if they have tackled that, only "proven the technical feasibility", which sounds about where I heard they were last.
When I saw them plying a big length of rubber on the leg of someone, it looked like something ready to cut off someone's circulation if left on too long. It tripped a few skeptical alarms for me. Will these have to be custom fitted? What happens if someone gains or loses weight(ie: mass)? Will using them for any length of time be uncomfortable or dangerous to people? They seem pretty happy to wander around in public wearing what appears to be a prototype. It just worries me that it might be a lot of hot air.
The use of Gyros sounds a bit odd, perhaps I am not quite sure of the process in which bones lose density. I would have thought the loss of bone mass is from the lack of gravity bones are subjected to in the first place, not a lack of resistance to movement. Gravity pulls mostly uniformly on people, Gyros probably won't help too much for putting resistance on someone's spine or other bones in the center of one's mass. It might help some for muscle loss though. Has NASA agreed to ship some of these up to the ISS for some testing?
Its a shame without shuttle like services we might not be able to do too much testing of the technologies we want to use to survive the trip, live on, and return from Mars. There are many that would be a great help.
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When I saw them plying a big length of rubber on the leg of someone, it looked like something ready to cut off someone's circulation if left on too long.
I'm guessing that's because there was an additional 1 atmosphere of pressure on it...
Will using them for any length of time be uncomfortable or dangerous to people?
Since the point is to make them less uncomfortable and dangerous than existing suits, I'd posit that the answer will be "no, or they'll go out of business."
The use of Gyros sounds a bit odd, perhaps I am not quite sure of the process in which bones lose density.
Nobody is quite sure of the process by which bones lose density in microgravity. It's still kind of a mystery.
I would have thought the loss of bone mass is from the lack of gravity bones are subjected to in the first place, not a lack of resistance to movement.
That seems to be the case from experiments, but there hasn't been a method to provide continual resistance to movement before, just periodic exercise.
Gyros probably won't help too much for putting resistance on someone's spine or other bones in the center of one's mass.
It might, i
Re:Read about these before. (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, and from the article that pic is from:
Bio-Suit is a space activity suit under development at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, which as of 2006[update] consists of several lower leg prototypes. Bio-suit is custom fit to each wearer, using laser body scanning.
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So, like in the anime "Rocket Girls"?
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Thanks for the recommendation :) I will check that anime out :)
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Can the laser scanner work out that I've pretty much got three legs? ;-)
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Have you ever heard of a spacesuit that isn't?
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While we are writing about shuttle era suits, the best comparison I've heard between those and the upcoming "skin tight" designs that only supply air to the helmet is in an episode of the Japanese anime "Rocket Girls" which was written with the help of the JSA. There's a lot of real science in there even if it's aimed at an ea
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No problem with the citation. I heard it on several shuttle documentaries, but the official source is http://history.nasa.gov/spacesuits.pdf [nasa.gov].
Their reason is the same you give, a large number of people demands a need for flexibility.
Is weight really an issue (Score:2)
in low or zero g?
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Mass is. You've still got to push the inertia of those limbs around.
Airless Vacuum (Score:1)
The barrier is too high, MAN must adapt (Score:4, Informative)
Unfortunately it looks like the human species (and maybe most multicellular animals!) is just not suited for long duration space flight and maybe even habitation of other (lesser gravity) worlds.
http://io9.com/5881355/microgravity-screws-us-up-at-a-cellular-level [io9.com]
If this turns out to be true (I know they are using fruit flies but Drosphilia are a good proxy for humans for many things) then we're going to have very serious problems in doing anything other than "plant the flag" style missions. At what point is there "enough" gravity to allow the proper development of a human fetus? Half a gravity? A third? (Mars). A sixth? (the moon). That's why probably the single most important next step for manned space flight is probably the addition of a large (capable of handling mice, preferably primates) centrifuge to the ISS. I recall that it was once meant to be part of it but was cancelled. WE NEED THESE QUESTIONS ANSWERED.
And if the news is bad and humans can't go through a complete life cycle in anything appreciably less than one gee? Then it's time to hack the genome and (possibly) create a new species! While we're at it, we might as add ability to withstand brief (1-2 minutes?) exposure to vacuum (I understand that oxygen comes out of your blood quickly and you can't hold your breath because your lungs will burst. So you pass out in seconds). Also, radiation hardening would be good (some animals like tardigrads can take thousands of times more exposure). The ability to hibernate would be great and I'm sure there are a lot more abilities we could wish for.
In short maybe Homo Astra (or something like that, I don't know Latin).
Otherwise our robots will conquer the universe without us (or at least until we can download our minds into them).
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In short maybe Homo Astra (or something like that, I don't know Latin).
I'm leaning towards Abh, myself.
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Unfortunately it looks like the human species (and maybe most multicellular animals!) is just not suited for long duration space flight and maybe even habitation of other (lesser gravity) worlds.
The problem is, we've currently only got proper data for 1g and (effectively) 0g, and damn little for anything in between. What are the long-term effects at martian gravitation levels? Lunar? 0.1g? If the worst of the effects can be staved off by even 0.1g, we can relatively easily spin craft to achieve that. (1g is more difficult, because of the amount of mass and energy involved.) But first we need the data, as you can't extrapolate or interpolate a curve from just two datapoints...
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Meh (Score:2)
Outer space is a hostile environment for humans, characterized by an airless vacuum, thermal extremes, ionizing radiation and speeding micro meteoroids.
Don't go there then.
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Evolve (Score:1)
"Look- they need machines to fly!"
void (Score:1)
airless vacuum
wow, must be damn low on oxygen that vacuum out there!
Sound like weather in Europe, at the moment . . . (Score:2)
"Outer space is a hostile environment for humans, characterized by an airless vacuum, thermal extremes, ionizing radiation and speeding micro meteoroids."
Space Suit Vogue Designers should look at fashion trends in Europe right now . . . how are folks there dressing to survive the hostile environment outside theirs?
Less well-known are the dangers posed by long-term exposure to microgravity or zero-g conditions, which over time severely saps the strength of astronauts' muscles and bones.
Sound like they just need some couch potatoes as test subjects. Again, look to Europe for volunteers. During a cold spell, people would rather sit around on their fat, hairy asses, than go outside and freeze their fat, hairy asses.
Any volunteers to be a paid test subject? All you need to do is sit around for a long period of time, whilst wearin
Space activity suit (Score:2)
The idea of an unpressurized space suit is not entirely new. The Space activity suit [wikipedia.org] has been developed in the late 1960s and was able to prove the concept. I'm glad it's on the table again. I've seen videos showing someone wearing an SAS running on a treadmill in a big vacuum chamber. However, I can't find it on the net.
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I found a relevant video [youtube.com]. If you want to see the suit in action, jump to the 4:00 mark.
Colours (Score:2)
So long as command gets gold, science blue, and anyone the designers hate get red.
"Spacesuit: Fashioning Apollo" and Playtex (Score:1)
It is a good history of the technology in 21 chapters (like the 21 layers of the Apollo suit). What most don't know is they were made by the Playtex corporation. The book is less technical than it could be but is a very good read.
Weight in zero-g conditions (Score:1)
Re:Who the heck for? (Score:5, Interesting)
Move your calendar forward to this year (Score:2)
There's nothing wrong with aiming to get back into that spot from way back in the pack but just sitting back and dreaming doesn't do it. It takes more effort than a bruised and b
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Thankfully Obama broke us of that weird insistance we had that [b]all[/b] space travel had to be done by a single monolithic government entity; we'll have private companies resupplying the space station within two years, and low orbit tourism within the decade. In the meantime, NASA has returned to pushing the envelope of bleeding-edge space technology, rather than spending the vast majority of its budget maintaining an over-engineered, under-preforming space dump-truck that was first built in the 70s.
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How did Obama have anything to do with any of that? SpaceX managed their first orbital launch in 2008 when Bush was still in office. SpaceShipOne hit space back in 2004, had been in full time development since 2001, and began initial planning way back in 1994 and the early days of Clinton. Obama was still a state legislator in 2004, and wasn't even in politics in 1994. Bush announced the cancellation of the Shuttle program, several years before Obama took office. Bush announced the replacement Ares lau
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we are brainwashed from a very young age to believe that things that come out of the enterprise of common people somehow leaks credit to the ruler in charge at the moment.
it is all part of the ideology that sustains the state i.e. our overlords.
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It's hard to imagine how they could. Our current technology isn't close.