Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts 1334
An anonymous reader tips a guest posting up on the MAKE Magazine blog by the author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. It seems that authorities in Massachusetts have raided a home chemistry lab, apparently without a warrant, and made off with all of its contents. Here's the local article from the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. "Victor Deeb, a retired chemist who lives in Marlboro, has finally been allowed to return to his Fremont Street home, after Massachusetts authorities spent three days ransacking his basement lab and making off with its contents. Deeb is not accused of making methamphetamine or other illegal drugs. He's not accused of aiding terrorists, synthesizing explosives, nor even of making illegal fireworks. Deeb fell afoul of the Massachusetts authorities for... doing experiments... Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
The More Things Change (Score:5, Informative)
AS always... (Score:0, Informative)
Fuck first post, but mostly FUCK the POLICE! If this guy wants to play with his chemistry set so be it. Let's put all the cops in jail because I'm sure they have crossed the line.
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed. Massachusetts, allow me to introduce you to the fourth amendment:
This fellow needs to make sure that the local authorities are smacked down. HARD.
Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Informative)
1. there was a fire in an air conditioning unit in the home.
2. the fire department responded, and in the course of responding, found hundreds of vials of chemicals.
It's illegal to enter a private residence w/o a warrant, but in this case, the home owner invited the cops in when he called the fire department.
only lesson to be taken home here: hide your stash before calling the cops
Contact Info for that part of the city government. (Score:3, Informative)
BS editorializing (Score:5, Informative)
"Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."
appears nowhere in the linked article, yet kdawson has chosen to sensationalize by adding his own words and making it look as if they were part of the article.
In fact the article actually states:
"Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties. "
poor excerpt-laws were broken (Score:4, Informative)
After reading the article, I'm pretty unimpressed with the selective quoting in the blurb. Not only were laws broken, but from the description of the house, it sounds like there was at least a little reason to want to investigate, if perhaps not launch a cleanup. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
double-check your translation (Score:2, Informative)
According to TFA, "Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties."
Also according to TFA, Mr. Deeb invited the fire department into his home, to deal with an an unrelated fire.
So, it seems that a violation was committed (though the question of the reasonability of the regulations in question remains open), and that this wasn't some sort of "no knock" raid.
Also, the fact that the chemicals in question were no more dangerous than typical household chemicals is not relevant - a lot of household chemical are very dangerous and are only permitted because they are typically kept in small quantities. It's one thing to have a can of bug spray, another to store a ton of pesticides.
Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Informative)
Joseph Ferson / Department of Environmental Protection / Joseph.Ferson@state.ma.us / 617-654-6523
Re:BS editorializing (Score:4, Informative)
[...]Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for Marlboro, stated, "I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation."
Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: "Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."
In effect, the Massachusetts authorities have invaded Deeb's lab, apparently without a warrant, and stolen his property[...]
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Informative)
Read TFA (the original article, not the sensationalist link):
Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
(emphasis mine)
The discovery wasn't a random home invasion, simply the result of doing their job. Much like police can bust you for murder if they see a dead body in your back seat after pulling you over for speeding, the firefighters reported a potentially unsafe violation of zoning and other laws.
Now if it turns out no laws were broken and they still destroy his property, that's screwed up.
Re:Typical (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1007/NEWS05 [telegram.com]
"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor, authorities said. The ensuing investigation involved a state hazardous materials team, fire and police officials, health officials, environmental officials and code enforcement officials. The Deebs were told to stay in a hotel while the slew of officials investigated and emptied the basement. "
Re:What I want to know... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:3, Informative)
They don't need a warrant if they are called in to respond to a fire.
"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home."
http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1008/ [telegram.com]
Re:Is anyone surprised? (Score:4, Informative)
In 30+ years of life, the only people who have directly terrorized me are police officers.
I live in the United States of America.
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Chemicals (Score:2, Informative)
Re:protest by buying his book (Score:5, Informative)
Except the book is not from the man in the article, it's from the blog author that's stirring up the mess by acting as if this was a big deal while plugging his book.
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
According to the Telegram article, the house had a fire in a second floor air conditioning unit, which was responded to by the fire department. It was then that the fire department found the lab in the basement.
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Pamela Wilderman, Secretary
Phone: (508) 460-3769
Fax: (508) 624-6504
Found a Picture... (Score:4, Informative)
Pretty much what you'd expect [boston.com]. Looks to be your garden variety petty bureaucrat, overly impressed by her little bit of power.
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Chemicals (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Informative)
When the officer says, "This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation," he's implying a zoning violation. It can be answered with, "This is not what we consider to be a customary neighborhood nuisance." Zoning laws should protect people from things like junk yards, car dealerships and noisy manufacturing. Going after this man is a stretch of those intentions.
It's like anti FUD with you people. He broke a zoning law. If you read the article, particularly the part where it says...
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws. "It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood," she said. "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ⦠There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
...you'd see that he had *WAY* too much stuff in his home AND was breaking the zoning laws by conducting scientific research in a residential neighborhood. I hate the government too, but what I hate more is idiots that spread half-truths. This is one of the latter cases. Print the whole story and it seems like a no brainer, but print half a story, and it feeds the no-brainers.
The actual law (Score:5, Informative)
You had to make me look, as I was quite surprised about that law. But here it is: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm [state.tx.us]
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Informative)
Not all zoning is dumb. In this case, with as large as chemical fuel load he had in the home, if his house went up it would likely take out the other houses nearby. Zoning helps ensure that when you work on work that is potentially flammable/explosive you minimize the risk to nearby objects.
I AM a fire safety researcher, and I know just how flammable most chemicals can be, especially since it looks like he was doing organic chemistry, which is what I have my doctorate in. I assure you his house (and no one's is) is rated to address the fire risk that would have eventually happened. The fact that he had a fire in his AC tells me that all the fumes from his operation were starting to condense in there and then got activated by a spark in the fan motor.
Since I'm a chemist I'm not happy with how he got treated, but still, he should have known better. While I greatly admire the older chemists for their ability to just tinker, research and work non-stop in the lab, there's a reason why the death rate among chemists has dropped, and its because we don't work like this guy does.
I would like a true discussion of this. (Score:5, Informative)
I contacted Ms. Wilderman, who actually answered her phone. http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index [marlborough-ma.gov]
Pamela A. Wilderman Code Enforcement Officer 508 460-3765
She stated that the fire department was called for an apparent fire on the 2nd floor of Mr. Deeb's home. This allowed the firemen entry into the house. Upon further investigation (of the basement for a 2nd floor fire) the firemen discovered the chemicals and brought in the authorities.
Ms. Wilderman said "We have zoning laws for this purpose, the firefighters were called into what they thought was a single family residence only to discover unmarked chemicals in the basement, he had a chemistry lab down there, in an area zoned residential". I informed her that I had an electronics lab, and beer brewing equipment in mine to which she made the comment "I bet your neighbors are thrilled about that". Of course I don't think my neighbors even know because they all mind their own business.
Anyway this brings up a series of questions. Were the chemicals truly unmarked? Mr. Deebs is a retired chemist, surely he would practice some type of protocol. Second, if his activity is not illegal where is the justification of not only seizing the items, but then stating they will be disposed of. Will Mr. Deebs be reimbursed. What if they went into the basement and discovered a person to hand loads his own ammunition? It is a perfectly legal hobby practiced by shooters all over the country. Would they have seized those items?
Finally, I would love to hear Mr. Deebs story on this. His reputation is being destroyed over a simple hobby.
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Chemicals (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Chemicals (Score:3, Informative)
Depending on the specifics of what this guy's dealing with,
Depending on the specifics of what you use to clean your oven, polish your silverware, wash your car or your bathroom and the jurisdiction you're in, you may be subject to rules regarding your disposal of such waste chemicals.
Perhaps raiding houses with shiny silverware and bleached tablecloth would be in order?
Disposal rules are not limited to chemists, and I'd assume (perhaps naively) that a practicing chemist would be more aware of how to handle his waste than the average user of various hazardous and toxic household chemicals.
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Informative)
The "Corporation" in the "Corporate State" is a vertical trade guild -- ie, a Syndicate. Fascism is Guild Socialism mixed with Nationalism. Mussolini started out as a Communist, as his father had been. It is NOT the same thing as a corporation in the sense which most people think.
Bad Summary (Score:3, Informative)
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
Actually, if you'll read the full quote, she finishes with: "⦠There are regulations about how much youâ(TM)re supposed to have, how itâ(TM)s detained, how itâ(TM)s disposed of." and the article continues with: "Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments."
So, even though he wasn't actively being a terrorist or doing anything wrong with the chemicals, there are still rules about how you're supposed to handle it and where and he apparently didn't abide by them well enough.
Regarding the lack of a warrant, to the best of my knowledge, if you have something illegal sitting out in plain sight and a law enforcement agency is there on other business, they don't really need a warrant to get at it.
Re:BS editorializing (Score:4, Informative)
After reading the makezine.com story and then reading the actual news story on the Telegram's site, its apparent that the makezine.com's intention was to sensationalize a story that otherwise most no one would have a second thought about.
I wouldn't want this kind of chemistry lab next to my house. There was a fire in a second floor air conditioning unit which the fire department responded to, and it was then that the chemistry lab was found. What if the fire had gotten out of control? Who knows what kind of mess that would have caused not only for the house it was in, but for the entire neighborhood.
Well, as usual the summary is not accurate (Score:4, Informative)
According to the newspaper article "most likely" violated numerous state and local regulations. Nobody is tossing out specifics because the town isn't planning to issue a citation. At issue is "how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of" in a residential area. So the issue isn't "experimenting", it's storage, processing and disposal at a facility not zoned for those purposes.
Common sense will show you that the scale of experimentation makes a difference. Making a few quarts of biodiesel or a few bars of soap, that's home experimenting. Making a thousand gallons of biodiesel or a thousand pounds of soap is an industrial process. There isn't a precise line between chemistry set stuff and industrial production, but it's there. Making four gallons of beer a week is a lot for a home brewer, but making a hundred gallons a week probably means you've "crossed some line".
The story doesn't really give us enough details to know whether the raid was justified, or served any public purpose. That depends on what they expected to find, why the expected to find it, and what they actually found, none of which is at this time public knowledge. We don't even know what level of government initiated this, it appears it was the town.
One thing that's almost certain is that the search did not require a warrant. It is what is legally called an "administrative search". According to the dictionary an administrative search is "an inspection or search carried out under a regulatory or statutory scheme esp. in public or commercial premises and usu. to enforce compliance with regulations or laws pertaining to health, safety, or security. One of the fundamental principles of administrative searches is that the government may not use an administrative inspection scheme as a pretext to search for evidence of criminal violations."
So the health inspector doesn't need a warrant to check on the crazy lady who has 200 cats in her house, which is a code violation even if its perfectly permissible for her to have 2 cats, or even 20. Likewise I can have a dog or two, but I can't run a kennel in a densely populated suburban neighborhood unless I have a zoning variance (and possibly pay commercial tax rates).
You can argue that there shouldn't be such thing as zoning regulations. And its probably true that there are many places where there is little or no purpose to them. But zoning laws and administrative searches are NOT unconstitutional, at least by the interpretation of the Constitution that has held sway for a century or more.
Let her know how you feel (Score:2, Informative)
When are they going to discover a new continent? (Score:2, Informative)
I'm getting sick of the police/narrow minded people having so much power. I was painting my car, with an HVLP gun and spraying less than 5 gallons of paint per year, well within the law in Texas. Well long story short my neighbors see me in a nylon suit with a gas mask and call me in as a meth lab.
Cops came by and the saw me painting. One of them pulled me out by my fresh air line and I started swearing at him because I didn't see he was a cop. Long story short I had a 280lb man throw me on the ground.
Then when they found out I wasn't violating any laws they told me if I was painting or welding again they'd pursue public nuisance.
So the cycle has completed, the narrow minded have take over in America and crushed what innovation there was. When is someone going to discover a new continent so we can start the cycle over again?
Businesses undergo inspection and regulation (Score:3, Informative)
I find it troubling that hobbyists are less trusted than corporations (assuming that these same experiments, performed by a corporation, would pose no problem - which I think the above quote pretty clearly implies).
Running a company is going to require a number of licenses and inspections, depending on the type of work you do. Health or safety inspectors may come to examine your shop. You may be required to file compliance reports. None of that's true for a hobbyist's basement.
Now, there's a good reason for that - "hobbyist" implies small-scale work that doesn't require inspections or regulation, because it's not the sort of thing that poses a safety hazard to anyone except perhaps the hobbyist. But when you're dealing with someone who has what sounds like a full scale lab and lots of stored chemicals, you've moved out of the category of "hobbyist."
More than 5 lbs of gunpowder usually illegal (Score:3, Informative)
As early as 1821 [claytoncramer.com], there were restrictions on how much gunpowder you could have around in a city house. 5 lbs was a common limit, and still is. [state.ny.us] In New York State, above 5 pounds of black powder, the licensing, reporting, and safety rules apply; for example, storage within 75 feet of an inhabited building is not permitted.
Modern smokeless powder isn't a major explosion hazard, but black powder is.
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:2, Informative)
This is only true when the zoning infraction does not potentially constitute an immediate danger to your surrounding areas.
if you wanted to store a large amount of dynamite in your home, and had a lisc to have dynamite legally, you'd still be in violation of the zoning laws by doing so in your home.
This they could, and should, confiscate it from your home as it is a potentially dangerous amount to not only you, but your neighbors as well.
dynamite is an extreme example, however simple chemicals can cause as much or worse consequences when improperly mixed.
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Firefighters also have hazardous materials training, and often have to clean up what happens when hazardous materials are not handled properly. They saw something that concerned them, and they reported their concerns to someone who overreacted, but the overreaction is the sole responsibility of the State agency(s) involved, and in no way the firefighters' responsibility. There's plenty of blame to go around, let's not start flinging it indiscriminately.
What other books are banned? (Score:3, Informative)
Cool book.
What other books are banned from public libraries? There must be a list somewhere.
I found this:
http://title.forbiddenlibrary.com/
and this:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html
but, dammit, I've read most of them. Where are the really bad ones?
You can join me in Hell during:
Banned Books Week
Celebrating the Freedom to Read
September 27â"October 4, 2008
http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bannedbooksweek.cfm
40 years ago ... (Score:2, Informative)
You may benefit by reading the article, which explains that the fire department was called, and when they discovered the 1500 jars of chemicals they determined it appeared to pose at least some risk in a residential home. Learning chemistry at home was not the crime, here. In fact, other than the enforced cleanup, it looks as if Deeb isn't going to be cited with anything.
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:3, Informative)
I've actually seen dry ice at some supermarkets here. At least it says dry ice on the bin in the front, I've never actually tried to buy it though.
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:3, Informative)
Add sodium.
Water on its own? Boiler explosions are amazing. The almost instantaneous expansion of the steam from 150 to 180 pounds per square inch of atmospheric pressure produced a terrific force, which was usually violent enough to rip the firebox sheets and tear the entire locomotive boiler off of the locomotive frames. The effect was pretty much like a rocket taking off and exploding. Boilers were sometimes hurled hundreds of feet away. http://small-leavedshamrock.blogspot.com/2008/05/1892-pottsville-train-explosion-how-why.html [blogspot.com]
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Mod points be damned - I'll ditch them to get in on this thread. There's nothing about this story that is intrinsically left- or right-leaning, despite the temptation to apply that often imaginary dichotomy to everything under the sun. It's also not some indication that both liberals and conservatives are out to destroy chemistry as we know it, violating our rights as they go along. I ask the Libertarians to at least tentatively withdraw your attack dogs. Let's examine what we know.
The meat of the case against Mr. Deeb is in this statement, which was not fully quoted in the summary because it comes from the MAKE article, which truncates it:
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws.
That's from the source article in the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. It indicates that this wasn't just some dude with a home chemistry set and a nifty hobby; Deebs was doing "research and development." This doesn't make him dangerous, but it's entirely possible that he really was violating local zoning laws. Neither the MAKE article nor the Worcester Telegram & Gazette article specifies which zoning laws were violated, nor which chemicals were involved.
So this may be a case of law enforcement overstepping its authority (and either liberalism or conservatism run amok, depending on whose adherents you think are more likely to try to convince us that chemists in basements are scary), but it may also be a case of Marlboro's "code enforcement" officers following perfectly valid (albeit annoying) zoning laws. Whether or not the laws are overly strict, I don't see anything in this article to indicate that Deeb's fundamental rights were violated ... except the bit about a lack of warrant. The MAKE article has this to say about that alleged Fourth Amendment infraction:
In effect, the Massachusetts authorities have invaded Deeb's lab, apparently without a warrant, and stolen his property. Deeb, presumably under at least the implied threat of further action, has not objected to the warrantless search and the confiscation of his property.
However, the original Worcester Telegram & Gazette article doesn't say anything about the absence of a warrant, and the MAKE article does not cite any other source. If that allegation is true, the Marlboro authorities have some explaining to do. But these sources are too limited to know for sure. I did a search on Google News and found this article [metrowestdailynews.com], which was the only one about these events that I cound find. While it also mentions that Deeb is cooperating with authorities, it doesn't mention warrants. Fourth Amendment violation? Who knows. Let's all get on with what we were doing before this "firestorm" erupted and reconvene when we have something solid and legitimate to complain about.
Re:The actual law (Score:4, Informative)
There you go. Owning these things is not a problem unless they were meant to be used in a drug lab. So if it says "for producing crystal meth" on the box, then you need a permit. Otherwise you're free to use the flask for whatever.
Re:Welcome to the club. (Score:3, Informative)
A few years ago there was an article in the newspaper here (San Francisco Bay area) talking about a big bust and the ARSENAL of weapons they found. Two pistols, a shotgun, and 200 rounds of ammo.
Hell, I buy ammo in 500 round boxes. Typically I buy two boxes at a time. This is just so I have enough ammo to fire off at the local range.
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Informative)
If you "consent to search", you've just thrown your Fourth Amedment rights down the toilet for now and forevermore. No more warrant required to search your place; you'ce already consented.
Re:Chemicals (Score:3, Informative)
The police are there as part of public safety and investigation into the possibility of suspicious circumstances behind the fire. They can't search your house without probable cause, but a fire qualifies as probable cause.
How's it supposed to function? (Score:3, Informative)
Any good fascist state function due to the hard work of strict compliance officers such as Pam Wilderman. Her work phone is (508) 408-4118. Give her a call and congratulate her on her good work.
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
by doing things like this the firefighters are jeopardizing this trust and placing the ability to protect the public safety in danger.
I'm a volunteer fireman and I can tell you all there have been briefings from Homeland Security and other agencies about looking for suspicious materials, not all of it terrorism related. And it's not just us. Mail carriers, delivery drivers, med techs, utility crews, anyone who might be on your property or in your house on any occasional basis.
We do have to be alert for drug labs, but most of the times the cops find them first and have their own hazmat teams.
My question would be if they were working a fire in a window unit on the second floor, what were they doing in the basement?
The rules for household chemicals aren't always real clear. Sounds like the state and local officials over-reacted. Unless there's a specific regulation that covers some compound he was using, it appears like his property was seized without due process. Unless we've taken another step down the road to a police state I don't think you can just declare something looks dangerous and confiscate it. In which case I could walk into anyones garage and start seizing lawn fertilizer, gasoline, paint thinner, ammonia, insecticides and anything else you might normally have around the house. All that stuff looks dangerous to me.
Re:The actual law (Score:3, Informative)
It's harder to qualify for a concealed carry permit in Texas than in any other state that allows ordinary citizens to carry (scary that the Bill of Rights is ignored so widely).
You definitely get points for the gun rack, but there's a sundown law in Texas, so that gun rack had better be empty after dark.
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:3, Informative)
I don't know about you but I'm not sure I'd want a hobbyist with an extremely large amount of potentially explosive material (stored improperly) doing "experiments" next door to me and my family.
and THAT sentiment is exactly why a court order should have been obtained first.
Court proceedings, due process and that sort of thing protect the interests of people like me and the chemist from your interests. You may not want Jewish/black/Muslim people living next door to you either. You might want your house to be taller than all your neighbors. Maybe you want your neighbor to give away most of his excess wealth to your favorite charity. But your "wants" are biased. They have to be mitigated by court order and procedure to ensure that you are not oppressing your neighbors and civilization is being kept fair and balanced. While the firefighters may have obtained knowledge of illegal evidence while performing their duty they are not officers of the peace and therefore the fourth amendment would still apply to his chemistry properties. Yes, the firefighters could make public their knowledge to a judge who could use that second hand testimony to issue a search warrant making the whole thing legal but that never occurred.
All you have is assumptions about his storage/flammability situation and a personal fantasy of how the world should be. They didn't say which chemicals were stored on furniture. Maybe it was just the harmless Baking Soda-like chemicals he stored on furniture. The more hazardous items may have been stored in a perfectly professional and safed manner. The article also mentioned that nothing was any more hazardous/flammable than what you or I have under our sinks. So I am inclined to believe that your "hobbyist", "extremely large amount", "potentially explosive" and air-quoted "experiments" are all exaggerated descriptions drummed up by your personal fears designed to lure others into accepting what you want based on feelings rather than rational thought. ("I don't know about you" is also a fallacy phrase designed to lure people into adopting an argument out of fear of being different or ostracized rather than solely on the logical merit of the argument.)
The point is: He *may* have crossed a zoning law. You don't know, I don't know and neither, apparently, do the people that seized his property without court order. He has an unalienable right from unreasonable search AND seizure. Only a judge has the authority to determined what is or is not unreasonable, not firefighters (not even the police). They should have obtained the court order first. Otherwise, what is to prevent them from coming into your house after you have a fire and taking your adult nude fine art paintings? your bible? your Children? Or anything other item or behavior that might offend somebody holding a position of power or in league with an unfriendly neighbor?
A simple court order would make this whole situation a non-issue.
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Informative)
Move to Oregon, dude. The state will actually pay for your euthenasia even when it won't pay for treatment. How advanced is THAT!!
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The actual law (Score:2, Informative)
Sorry, but I don't think you can hang that one on Texas. The pharmacies I go to for my Drixoral fix all have a cute little sign quoting the relevant section of the USA PATRIOT Act as their authority for demanding ID and stating the penalties for any economies with the truth you may want to take.
I never realized how much money from home-grown meth labs went into the pockets of the terrorists. I am glad the DOJ has cleared that up for us.
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Informative)
Converstion posted!
Re:just another thing going wrong ... (Score:3, Informative)
No, if your house has a fire & the fire dept comes, it is usually required to be recertified as habitable. So, calling in the the zoning & health inspector is a perfectly normal part of dealing with a fire.
Read the article, Mr. Deep didn't object - no objection, no need for a hearing. If a cop says "I want to look in your trunk" and you say OK & open it, he doesn't need a warrant. Perhaps closer to the point, if he tells you to give him the joint tucked behind your ear so neither of you have to deal with the paperwork of a minor possession charge, he doesn't need a warrant if you comply.
In this case, health & zoning said "we want to clean this up, go live in a hotel while we do". If Mr Deep had said no, they were within their rights to decert the house for habitation and force it's cleanup by Mr Deep prior to recertification, & he would have been within his rights to fight the decert in court.
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Informative)
They'd need a warrant for that. So no, they didn't assume it was a meth lab, they just chose to raid the home without any legal right to do so.
That being said, typical household chemicals can make some pretty lethal chemicals when mixed together. Mixing together multiple types of cleaning products has been known to cause some pretty serious illnesses or death.
Ultimately it's bullshit, any chemistry student, knows not to randomly mix chemicals. And a retired chem prof definitely knows not to. More likely than not, it's less dangerous allowing him to have and use them than it is the general public.
Founding fathers (Score:3, Informative)
MassCops Forums (Score:1, Informative)
I've dealt with a lot of these Mass cops before - they are very, very frightening people. They are power hungry morons who bash the innocent and have very distorted views of reality.
They have their own message board.. take a look for yourself if you'd like to be very disturbed:
http://www.masscops.com/forums/
Be sure you check out the 'Ask a Cop' help forum where they just make fun of people seriously trying to get help
A similar thing happened to me (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Is anyone surprised? (Score:1, Informative)
I'm only 29, but I have the same thing to say.
I have been jailed twice for... nothing. I hire expensive lawyers and everything is dropped an hour before the trial... seems they had no intention of prosecuting, "they did it just to fuck with you" (my lawyer's words)
I have had some friends who had crimes committed against them and opted NOT to call the police because they were more put off by being prodded by investigators than they were by the actual crime itself.
That's a sad state...
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Informative)
Is it possible for the fire to travel between the walls down into a finished basement?
Usually it goes up but yeah, especially in older homes. That's what the horizontal braces between studs are supposed to do in modern construction. Keeps a fire downstairs from using the wall space between studs as a chimney to the attic.
To answer your question about our thermal cam...from the outside, it depends on the home construction and how well it's insulated. Usually no. And through a concrete basement wall, not at all.
It does probably make sense they were going to cut the breaker to the outlet, just to be safe. In older homes the breaker boxes are usually in the basement. Few homes here have basements or are that old. And if you see a large quantity of chemical, even if it's not obviously hazardous, it would be SOP to report it.
I'd still maintain the responding agencies may have over-reacted but after thinking it over, I'm not certain they would have many options. In densely populated areas your discretionary threshold will be a lot lower. Out here, where it's a 1/2 mile to the neighbors house and we're dealing with someone we've known for years, we can exercise a little more flexibility. It's not really fair to compare how we have handled similar situations. It still sucks that people doing things off-normal but not threatening get swept up in the same mechanisms as people being really stupid, or doing something truly dangerous and potentially life-threatening. You can always escalate the level of response but it's tough to unring the bell when you call in the cavalry.