First Privately Funded Manned Space Mission 131
Ragetech writes "CNN.com has a story about two Russian astronuts (yes, I say nuts) blasting off to dock with the Mir station to evaluate it, rescue and possibly operate it for profit. What I'm wondering, really, is why they don't pick up a few Iridum satellites while they're up there and really pick up the profits. I mean, that stuff is salvagable now, isn't it? "
Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:1)
Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:1)
Well they have run a space station for nearly one and a half decades. If you can't figure out the answer yourself then I'm not going to bother explaining it to you.
"a very good safety record. There have been some near disasters, a crash and a fire"
Ummm... What? No, re-read it three times. You'll have to explain this
Ok. These were "near" disasters because nothing truly disasterous happened. That is to say, there was no loss of life and the damage was minimal enough that the station continued to function. I say the Mir has a very good safety record because although there have been some close calls, the expertise and professionalism shown by the Russian pilots prevented a "true" disaster from happening. This does not take anything away from the Americans. The Apollo 13 near disaster was handled with at least as much professionalism as was demonstrated on the Mir. I am glad that we didn't cancel the Apollo program out of cowardice and I couldn't expect the Russians to cancel their program because there have been some close calls. By the way, the crash of the supply ship with the Mir was caused by human error whereas the Apollo 13 explosion was due to faulty equipment. As was the Challenger explosion. Both sides have had bumps in the road but that can be expected with any technology of such tremendous complexity in such a state of infancy. There will be more problems with both the Russian and American space systems and the chances of loss of life will always be there for anyone venturing into space. To sum it up for you, I say that the Mir has a "very good safety record" because nobody has been killed or even seriously injured there. They know what they are doing due to lessons learned through the bravery and courage that some in the West have chosen to describe as foolishness. There is sometimes a fine line between courage and foolishness. Call it what you will, but the Russians have gained quite a lot of expertise because of it.
Re:Real or TV Show (Score:1)
Started with a made-for-TV movie about going to the moon in a ship they build from salvaged bits to get all the old Apollo trash and resell it. The series had them wandering all over in their strangely-reusable Saturn-V-looking craft, getting into all sorts of interesting adventures. Great fun show for preteens of that era....
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Re:Nah, doesn't work. (Score:1)
So - heavy boost is a bad idea... What about an ion engine? Light boost = no damage, high efficiency, slow adjustment of orbits, nice and easy.
And the concept of a tranfer point for to change vehicles is valid - vehicles that are designed for takeoff, rentry and landing at 1G (with all the added equipment/mass) are simply not efficient for deep space and low-G landings. And fuel/consumables can be delivered to the transfer point with cheaper unmanned vehicles (like the Progress does for supplies for the Mir) this too is more efficient.
Actually, continuing this chain of logic says that a second station in lunar orbit would raise efficiencies even more, but we were talking about the Mir here, and the first gives the biggest win.
(Though I am not so clear about all the tradeoffs between LEO and a higher orbit. How much higher would be good? It's true that LEO has problems because of resudual drag, especally during solar maximums; but put the orbit too much higher and many launch vehicles (including the shuttle, darn!) would have trouble reaching it. Suggestions?)
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Re:URL for MirCorp (Score:1)
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Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:1)
Re:Real or TV Show (Score:1)
Re:I wasn't sure, but he wasn't fat. (Score:1)
Matlock wore those baggy suits. The Salvage 1 character wore snug flannel shirts. Andy Griffith's appearance changed considerably prior to the "Matlock" series due to a medical condition. Also, he got older.
Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:1)
> the US need to catch up on?
>
> "a very good safety record. There have been some
> near disasters, a crash and a fire"
1. Russians have the ability to put a sattelite
into an orbit launched from a submerged submarine.
2. Russian engine R-180, a descendant of the R-170
rocket engine will power future US rockets.
3. The Russian space shuttle is the only space
shuttle capable of unmanned landing.
4. The Mir space station is not in as bad of
shape as you suggest, nothing a bunch of duct-tape
rolls could not fix. That technology they can by
from US
5. Key components of the International Space
Station are those which were originally destined
for Mir-2.
I wish you better luck in this catch-up game...
I am all for progress, I just don't like these
pissing contests, they wind me up for the rest of
the day.
Pavel.
Re:What does it mean? (Score:1)
Several glasses of vodka. For the health! (The last sentence is a literal translation, it has no meaning in English).
Re:Balls! (Score:1)
Re:Balls! (Score:1)
mebbe you missed the whole cold war thingy.. (Score:1)
thanks.
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blue
Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:1)
I am sure it could make an unmanned landing but you have to put it in space first. There shuttle never flew.
Don't forget the Russians just land there capsules in the snow not he ocean like we did.
Spare Parts (Score:1)
Re:Where they'll make their money (Score:1)
You couldn't put a linux box up there since it wouldn't have enough hardware fault tolerance to be reliable enough. Also I belive you'll probably want a rad-hardened system if its going to be up there for a while. This means that whatever you put up there will not be off-the-self stuff unless you want to go up there and fix it after every solar flare and gamma ray burst that occurs.
Iridium wouldn't be a big money-maker (Score:1)
(Score:1)
[To answer your question, you can't pick up an Iridium because it's in a different orbit...if it is aimed to pass nearby it will vaporize your arm if you grab it. You'll have to launch a remote-controlled "space tug" to go grab the birds...and fuel tanks to keep refueling the thing.]
Re:Real or TV Show (Score:1)
With Richard Benjamin
Re:Anyone got clothes pin? (Score:1)
Re:Bill G's new hideout - Mir (Score:1)
Why I'd like Bill G to reside at Mir (Score:1)
Actually, I'm just trying to make some bucks off of Bill G's misery. Plus, I figure that maybe he'll sell his house and I can use it to store my canoe in and for interactive MUD hosting. But I'm holding out for $74 1/2 pricing for my hostile takeover [grin].
Then maybe we can hack Mir and reset the environment to make sure Bill G's nice and comfy at a balmy 65 degrees Celsius. After all, it's not a bug, it's a feature
Re:how will you see the ads on mir exactly??? (Score:1)
Re:White Sun of the Desert. (Score:1)
Sort of like the tradition of cosmonauts pissing on the tires of the ready trailer before boarding the capsule.
Re:White Sun of the Desert. (Score:1)
MIR and Iridium orbital radii (Score:1)
MIR orbits [nasa.gov] at an average of 333 km above ground, while Iridium satellites [apspg.com] orbit at about 780 km above ground.
Re:How in the world (Score:1)
Re:Real or TV Show (Score:1)
Re:A bit late, guys... (Score:1)
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Hey, there's a money-making idea. (Score:1)
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Nah, quite understandable. (Score:1)
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Re:Fleabag hotel in space. (Score:1)
But you're being silly, 'cause you're a troll. Oh, something I missed:
I mis-read that and missed the word than, which reverses the entire meaning. I'm sorry I attributed one iota of sense to anything you've posted here. Mea culpa.--
Nah, doesn't work. (Score:1)
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GO FOR IT! (Score:1)
The only way anything gets done is for people to push and poke at the problem, to see where it's vulnerable. Not everybody finds a soft spot, but you've just started toward being part of the process. Congratulations, and may you go far.
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Re:How in the world (Score:1)
On the shuttle [gcfl.net]? If they do something interesting enough (save mir, go to Mars [nw.net], etc), the public will be watching. And reading the newspaper. And talking to each other about who is sponsoring the mission (remember the EDS "herding cats" ad during the superbowl?).
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Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:1)
I missed something. What Russian space tech does the US need to catch up on?
"a very good safety record. There have been some near disasters, a crash and a fire"
Ummm... What? No, re-read it three times. You'll have to explain this.
Jon Sullivan
Re:how will you see the ads on mir exactly??? (Score:1)
I have already seen one ad last year that was partially filmed on MIR. Unfortunately it was for Australian Rules Football so most here probably haven't seen it. It actually wasn't too bad.
Re:Profit? (Score:1)
Re:Profit? (Score:1)
Sounds like a fun investment.. (Score:1)
Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net [mailto]) - AOL IM: MicroBerto
Re:Mir + Iridium = Data Haven (Score:1)
Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net [mailto]) - AOL IM: MicroBerto
Government? (Score:1)
Maybe they are going to once again screw the US and start up Mir again rather than work internationlly.
Time will tell.
First reasonable post! (Score:1)
CSG_SurferDude
Re:"Salvage 1" Series (Score:1)
Re:Various Issues (Score:1)
You mean they put a brzzzing neon sign up there that sez 'Jury's all-you-can-eat Diner' (featuring the pan-galactic gargle blaster) or have the guests watch anti-gas commercials while we dimwits down here are obscured by clouds? Jeez...
How about making it the next peace talk hotel (where contrahents are only released after signing on that dotted line) or the next Big Brother show environment?
affordability? (Score:1)
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Miles O'Brien contributed to the report???? (Score:1)
I would pay to go... (Score:1)
DISAPOINTED?!!?!?!? (Score:1)
Re:How in the world (Score:1)
You could make a profit by:
(1) leasing "space" for scientific experiments requiring zero-gee and/or without the interference of Earth's atmosphere.
(2) like you mention (and as they plan), advertising revenue.
(3) tourism. According to the story some guy is willing to shell out 15 million to visit Mir. The total amount of venture captial put into the project currently is only 20 million. Remember the old rich guy in Contact?
(4) use it as infrastructure for training your own astro/cosmonauts, for future private ventures. Gives you a big head start on your competitors if you already own and operate a space station.
(5) if you are an evil genius planning to take over the world, Mir may make a nice orbital weapons platform :)
Re:Ironic (Score:1)
No, it's not ironic. It's symmetric. The first man in space was Russian, so it's only fair.
Lord British in Space? (Score:1)
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WWhhaatt ddooeess dduupplleexx mmeeaann??
Top 5 Things To Do with People on Mir without $$ (Score:1)
Top 5 Things To Do With People on Mir Who Run out of Money
5. Tickle them until they either cough up more money or die.
4. Send them on a spacewalk and then cut the tether cord to the suit while jeering them through the radio.
3. Tell them that you're sending them home to Earth because they have no money. Then put them into the escape pod and aim it towards the sun.
2. Stuff them into an airlock and suck all the air out of the airlock. I won't go into what happens next.
And the #1 thing to do with a person on Mir who runs out of money is...
1. Use them as an electrical conduit when something (inevitably) breaks.
Re:How in the world (Score:1)
However, this makes me wonder two things:
1) Where do they plan on placing advertising? It doesn't seem like billboard-type ads on the side of the space station would get much exposure to our mostly earth-bound consumer market.
2)How many people can they find who are willing to pay $15 million for a trip to Mir? I think that market would dry up fairly quickly.
They had better come up with some long term revenue generating plans, and quick, or Mir just might meets it's fate of burning up in the atmosphere on the way back to Earth!
Space Profit (Score:1)
It is estimated that if a private company owned a space shuttle, it would see profit within the first 18 months of operations. Missions would be launched at a rate of four missions a year.
So why hasn't anyone done this yet? Well, it is rumored that a certain shuttle operating company [unitedspacealliance.com] looked into this possiblity. They even had the funds neccessary to acquire a shuttle. Apparently all went awry because they failed to talk to the right people. When a few key people found they were bypassed, they decided to axe the attempt. Apparantly this is the real reason the CEO is no longer with the company.
Wigs
--Support better legislation for the privatization of space. Visit Pro Space [prospace.org] today.
Re:Hey, there's a money-making idea. (Score:1)
Re:White Sun of the Desert. (Score:1)
Re:What if the space hotel declares independence?! (Score:1)
Re:how will you see the ads on mir exactly??? (Score:1)
Re:A nut by any other name... (Score:1)
and Astro - (Aster) is Greek for "Star".
The space missions don't go to stars, why
call them Astronauts?
travelling in "Order" not travelling in "Stars"
DIE IRIDIUM, DIE (Score:1)
is happy to tears that IRIDIUM satellite network is going down.
YEAH, BABY, DOWN IT GOES, IT'S GONNA B-U-R-N in HELL!!!
IRIDIUM is not only using its own radio bandwidth given to them for use but they are blocking other bandwidths as well, for example the 18MHz OH bandwidth and even coming close to 21MHz cold hydrogen wave.
This really screws up SETI observations and many other astronomers' observations too. I mean, don't you think it is more important to find intelligent life in the outer space than trying to dial 1800biteme on your IRIDIUM telephone?
Re:A nut by any other name... (Score:1)
Re:How in the world (Score:1)
Quark! (Score:1)
Cosmonaut joke (lame) (Score:1)
Han: Nice.
Astronaut: You DOCKED with that thing? You're braver than I thought!
Cosmonaut: Spasiba!
White Sun of the Desert. (Score:1)
...Is apparently the story of a Red Army officer during the Russian Civil war (I presume they mean the early days of the revolution). The article said that watching this film is a pre-launch tradition.
This is not available at your local Blockbuster. Apparently it is available at Boston University (http://www.geddes.bu.edu/). So, if you understand Russian (I assume they haven't dubbed it) you can probably go there and capture some of the cosmonaut experience.
These days, I wonder what these guys will feel like watching this Soviet era film. I can only presume the tradition started to inspire the cosmonauts that they were working for the "glory of the revolution". Can anybody else offer further insights into this?
Re:White Sun of the Desert. (Score:2)
First, Civil War happened after the revolution -- after taking the power in the capitals communists still fought for few years with various forces that opposed them to actually establish their power over the country.
Second, "White Sun of the Desert" is nowhere close to being about a glory.
Re:Mir + Iridium = Data Haven (Score:2)
For merely $100,000 US/month you can have access to our huge pr0n library, circumvent any information restrictions your government might have! (check or money order only please, not responsible for government interception of your money at the border.)
Re:From Earth to Mir to the Moon (Score:2)
Re:DIE IRIDIUM, DIE (Score:2)
A nut by any other name... (Score:2)
Of interesting note concerning Cosmonuts is the first Cosmoanimal. Many of us might remember that the Russians were the first to put an animal in space back in the 50's - Lieka the space dog. A few years ago I came to sudden realization... Lieka was put into space in a modified Sputnik! A spacecraft that had no means of reentering the Earth's atmosphere.
MY DOG! IT'S FULL OF STARS!
What the Hell happened to Lieka? How come nobody ever mentions what happened to that damn dog!?! Did he burn up in reentry, starve to death, or become one with the "Space Baby" from 2001? He can't possibly be in orbit can he? Or maybe he is still circling the earth at thousands of miles per second along with Gene Roddenbury and Timothy Leary.
Forget rescueing Mir! SAVE THE DOG!
Actually ... (Score:2)
Umm, Hemos? (Score:2)
Last time I checked, Russian astronauts were called cosmonauts.
Wouldn't that make them cosmonuts? (yes, I say nuts)
Ironic (Score:2)
How in the world (Score:2)
Or, it could just be the old "give the space station away, sell the transport shuttles" thing.
-JD
Re:how will you see the ads on mir exactly??? (Score:2)
That aside, sometimes the purpose of an advertisement isn't to be seen, but just to be known about. I for one would greatly respect anyone who'd pay money to help keep Mir in space. Anyone. Microsoft, McDonald's, anyone (okay, maybe not Phillip-Morris, but anyone short of that). All of those wannabe-geeks who think it'd be a "tragedy" if those silly Iridium satellites came down need to get their priorities straight. Satellites, no matter how much money was blown on them, are a dime a dozen, but space stations are something different altogther. If I were to make a list of reasons why the human race isn't a complete waste of time, keeping Mir manned and in orbit for over 14 years now would probably be near the top of the list. Look! There! *points up*. People!
It's a pity we haven't gone further ..we SO need to go back to the moon, if just to check Tycho for magnetic anomalies :) ...but at the very least there's Mir.
*whine*I wanna be a cosmonaut! *whine* *whine*
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"HORSE."
Anyone got clothes pin? (Score:2)
ago."
I feel sorry for those guys... You know it's got to
smell real funny in there.
Re:Real or TV Show (Score:2)
Here [crosswinds.net]
I gotta start checking my links again.
Fleabag hotel in space. (Score:2)
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Re:Nah, doesn't work. (Score:2)
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Re:Nah, doesn't work. (Score:2)
r2 = v1^2 * r1 / ((2GM/r1) - v1^2) (plug r2 into the angular momentum equation and solve for v2)
From differences in velocities you can calculate the fuel-mass required at each burn from the rocket equation, Mfinal/Minitial = exp(-Vdelta/Vexhaust). Even for H2/O2, Vexhaust is only about 4500 m/sec; the mass required to push something around quickly becomes a frighteningly large (and expensive-looking) value.
You'd be much better off to crunch numbers for things that don't involve expending large amounts of reaction mass. For instance, if you're going to the Moon, there are possibilities for moving stuff with massive rotating tethers; as long as you move about the same amount of mass in both directions, they operate more or less for "free". This is a field that is far more worthy of study than keeping a creaky, leaky, flaky old space station in service for emotional reasons. Maybe slapping an ion engine on a Progress and boosting Mir up to a safe parking orbit, deactivated and emptied of atmosphere and fluids, would be attractive to somebody who wants to preserve it for some far-off museum display. Trying to bend other missions to fit Mir just so you can say it's being used doesn't make much sense.
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Re:Harrrr Maties! (Score:2)
Shoot, they're sending two Russian men this time.... uhhm.....
Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net [mailto]) - AOL IM: MicroBerto
Re:Luxury hotel in space. (Score:2)
Re:Oh and by the way ... (Score:2)
I thought Iridium's orbital inclination was 86.4 degrees. Not quite a polar orbit.
And let's not forget that all of those satellites are in different orbital planes than Mir.
Perhaps when he have massive energy reserves available (like on Start Trek) we would be able to change orbital plane and inclinations and perform such a salvage. But not yet.
Re:Profit? (Score:2)
Hell yah! I never play the lottery becuase I see it as a waist of money and time, but this is something worth buying a few tickets for! Who doesn't want to go into orbit?
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
Re:First reasonable post! (Score:2)
http://www.permanent.com/archimedes for those who are interested.
Iridium really isn't that useful (Score:2)
Why do you think Iridium went out of business? I took too long to get going, cost to much to run and hence too much to attract any customers. Reading all this stuff about re-using the satalite network for something else makes me laugh too. Do you know that there was no data call facility on Iridium? The thing was designed in the '80s before anyone considered mobile datacoms.
I did read a story about a guy that was going to fly his airplane to the north pole and make an internet connection from there, but since Iridium had no data mode he was going to have to use an accoustic coupler! 300 baud here we go!
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I wasn't sure, but he wasn't fat. (Score:2)
Is this life imitating art, or art just being thought of first.
Real or TV Show (Score:2)
It was Salvage One with Dick VanDike. Their base was a junk yard. In one episode, they picked up some satelite (irridium?) that was about to fall from orbit. It was on the way back from saving some people from a Space station (Mir?).
Re:how will you see the ads on mir exactly??? (Score:3)
Actually it's pretty easy to see, looks like a fast moving, bright dot.
Every couple of weeks I grab the latest Orbital Elements [nasa.gov], run some pass predictions, and see how it is doing. When it was manned, it was always cool to think how there were people living on that little dot in the sky. It gives me a thrill to think about it!
Nasa has a java applet [nasa.gov] which will do tracking and pass prediction, but you can find some normal software [nasa.gov] to do it as well.
Where they'll make their money (Score:3)
Screw Iridium, BUY MIR!
A bit late, guys... (Score:3)
The cosmonauts have almost no idea what they're going to find. The station has been unmanned for about six months. They have no idea whether it is still presurrised, whether the hull has been compromised or anything. Mir also needs to be *flown* by using it's gyros to keep the solar panels pointing at the sun. How well this is working now is anybody's idea. Rather them than me.
Bill G's new hideout - Mir (Score:3)
Harrrr Maties! (Score:3)
Space, and rural roads should be governed by the salvage laws of the sea!
You abandon it, it reverts back to the chapter of law defined under "Finders Keepers caveat emptor".
Wanna leave that nice new Expedition stuck in a ditch by the side of the road? No prob! Me and the boys have some winches!
Wanna leave that space station unlocked? Well we'll just move in and squat!
Wanna leave a few satellites unattended? Fine! We need the Sci-Fi channel up here too!
damn, just broke my irony meter... (Score:4)
er...
Wooden ships and iron men (Score:4)
When they sailed around the tip of South America in July, they knew they'd have to make men climb up into rigging during a raging gale to wrestle bare handed with frozen rigging -- you simply can't control the ship without sending men aloft. It was no unusual thing to lose one or two sailors overboard during a voyage.
And this was routine travel. Exploration was an order of magnitude more dangerous.
In a sense, the "comsonuts" really have a more normal view of risk and safety than our own, when viewed against the backdrop of human history. I'm not saying they're right, but it's something to think about.
Mir + Iridium = Data Haven (Score:4)
Refit Mir to be an orbiting data library, free of any national jurisdiction. Utilize the abandoned Iridium satellites so users worldwide can access it. Charge for Iridium-based net access, use profits to pay Mir operating expenses.
Online gaming for motivated, sportsmanlike players: www.steelmaelstrom.org [steelmaelstrom.org].
Various Issues (Score:4)
As far as I know, MirCorp (the Holland-based consortium backing the mission) is mainly planning to make money by selling advertising space and by taking people up for a few days. The figure I've heard bandied about is around $600K/day. Although, they're being very tight-lipped about who, if anybody, is signed up to go ... which I tend to suspect means that they don't have any committed clients. That is why the RSA is being circumspect about the role of the cosmonauts up there right now - they might just fix some things and come home having prepared the Mir to go swimming in the Pacific, or they might stay up to get the place ready for guests.
Another thing that troubles me is that Energya is one of the largest members of MirCorp. As we all know, Energya (which has very tight connections to the Russian government) has significant motives other than profit to see the Mir stay in orbit, i.e. national/corporate pride, plus the possibility of revenue from a continuing stream of resupply missions to the station. In short, it's worth a lot to them for political and economic reasons, regardless of whether MirCorp ever succeeds in getting people up there.
I've seem lots of complaints about the safety of Mir, here and elsewhere. I might point out that, for the most part, there's nothing wrong with Mir that a good fixing-up and a regularly changed crew wouldn't solve. Yes, it leaks air, but not as fast as the Shuttle; plus, it doesn't leak corrosive volatiles like hydrazine, which the shuttle does. I heard that Energya, in fact, had considerable safety concerns with docking the shuttle to Mir for just these reasons, out of worry that the assorted stuff the Shuttle puts out might damage the station. As for the fire, etc, this mostly had to do with ancient equipment up there, which should certainly be replaced - and will be, if MirCorp can come up with the kind of money it seems to believe it can.
URL for MirCorp (Score:5)
MirCorp is at www.mirstation.com
They do confirm backing by the eerily named Gold and Appel Transfers Fnord. I really wonder if that is a complete coincidence or just a very rich baby boomer with a sense of humor.
They also have some info on the the crazed fools (or visionarys) backing Mir Corp. Why does everything about this remind me of Heinleins 'Man who sold the moon'?
Good luck to em, personally if it gets things happening in space sooner I don't mind even if mir ends up plastered in golden arches and windows logos.
Oh and by the way ... (Score:5)
Yes, I'm sure Hemos is aware of the fact that "picking up some Iridium satellites while they're up there" is a silly idea. But for the humor impaired, here's why -
Conclusion: why bother? It would be a very expensive, very silly operation. Though now that I think about it, Red Hat might be interested. Rearrange their orbits just right, and they'd flash "LINUX" in the evening and morning sky every 90 minutes around the world. I envision Redmond being the first target. :-)