This is just the continuation of the "public health crisis" excuse to ban something people don't agree with. Smoking, Sugary drinks, guns, etc. The slippery slope continues.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @08:00AM (#51946139)
C'mon, it's much more than that. The men in the US are not getting married, and having fewer children. Our birth rates are low and getting lower and sometimes I wonder if the real reason they don't crack down in illegal immigrants on either side is because they boost the numbers when it comes to birth rate.
At any rate, denying men access to porn will likely lead to more babies. At least, until the robot sex bots are under $5k.
Source? I'd like to see the study that not only shows correlation, but causation between access to porn and rape statistics. Don't just make up stuff to make yourself feel better.
The results above suggest that potential rapists perceive pornography as a substitute for rape. With the mass market introduction of the world wide web in the late- 1990’s, both pecuniary and non-pecuniary prices for pornography fell. The associated decline in rape illustrated in the analysis here is consistent with a theory, such as that in Posner (1994), in which pornography is a complement for masturbation or consensual sex, which are themselves substitutes for rape, making pornography a net substitute for rape.
There is research that suggests porn might have a causative relationship for reductions in rape, which would make a certain degree of sense, given that there will be fewer sexually frustrated men.
Shhh you'll step on the toes of the idea that rape is about power and not sex. The idea isn't entirely wrong, it just presents a false dichotomy. Rape is about sex and power, feeling powerful and in control (and the idea of it) definitely sexually charges someone. Others are sexually charged by feeling like they have absolutely no control.
Apart from that being the only report that makes the claim "porn access reduces rape," even the economist who wrote it had his doubts on the quality of the data. I'm not saying the claim is false; I'm just saying that report isn't scientific and can't be used as evidence.
Specifically, the results suggest that
a 10
percentage point increase in internet access is associated with a decline in reported rape
victimization of around 7.3%. While admitting that
data quality, omitted variables,
functional form assumptions, and other confounding
factors could potentially cause bias,
I support this claim with six separate pieces of evidence. When considered as a whole,
the empirical case is more compelling.
Additionally, this was pulled from only a few years of data within the US and the statics were mostly tablecloth math. All in all, it seems this one study is a biased outlier.
Apart from that being the only report that makes the claim "porn access reduces rape,"
I'm trying to stick with things that are reasonably open access.
Ferguson, Christopher J., and Richard D. Hartley. "The pleasure is momentary the expense damnable?: The influence of pornography on rape and sexual assault." Aggression and violent behavior 14.5 (2009): 323-329.
Victimization rates for rape in the United States demonstrate an inverse relationship between pornography consumption and rape rates. Data from other nations have suggested similar relationships. Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to increased sexual assault behavior.
Fisher, William A., et al. "Pornography, sex crime, and paraphilia." Current psychiatry reports 15.6 (2013): 1-8.
Also, I'd agree that porn doesn't increase rape. There are many studies that have come to that conclusion, even the ones which were intentionally trying to put porn in a bad light.
Prefacing this with the fact that I don't disagree with the thrust of your argument, necessarily.
Correlation is not causation, but absence of correlation is absence of causation.
Not actually true. One example is if event A causes B, and event A is non-causally correlated to event C, and C causes ~B, then you can show no correlation between A and B even though A causes B.
Or look at this guy's argument: http://theincidentaleconomist.... [theinciden...nomist.com]. I didn't check out the rest of his site but the mathematical argument seems sound.
Is that the latent feminist inside talking? Men are all sex craving beasts which will mindlessly rape if we can't find a pretty picture to masturbate to?
And as any list of fetishes would show you, it's amazing what people will masturbate to that isn't porn.
I see no evidence that men are less tolerant of women's shit.
I see evidence that women's shit is increasing with their economic power *, no surprise there.
There are now women who's shit is so thick, no man will put up with it. I have no problem with that, her choice. But in the 1950s that woman would have been institutionalized (had she not grown up entirely differently).
Reduction in birth rate is tied to education of women, world wide.
* The basic inequality in life is: 'Women control half the mone
And American women are in general gold digging bitches. They are surrounded by men yet continue to be maximisers and look for something better that those around them (that isn't coming). Or those other women that would marry for a first time at 21, for second time at 25, for third time at 28, divorce them all and live of forcefully extracted alimony for the rest of their lives without a day working any real job. It is not surprising that within the first ten questions of meeting a woman (if she at all appro
I've met a few (blessedly few) women of such temperament, even a few friends, and I say go for it woman - be as blatant about it as you like, it makes it all the easier for me to steer clear, and there's certainly no shortage of men trying to buy women's attention with flashy cars, big bankrolls, etc. I say the two groups deserve each other, and may their financially-based relationships bring them as much happiness as money can buy.
If you've been suffering such a stream of repeated encounters with such women to breed the bitterness you're giving voice to, then let me offer a bit of advice: You know all those hot women with well-sculpted bodies, beautiful hair, and flawless makeup that invariably catch your eye? That almost always takes work, a LOT of work, to maintain. Between personal grooming and cosmetics, plus maintenance throughout the day, and regular exercise to maintain that sculpted body, you can easily be talking an hour or two per day. Plus almost completely depriving themselves of the sweet and fatty foods we all love. Assuming they also have a job to pay the bills, and sleep the recommended 8 hours a day, that can be over 1/4 of their daily free time spent on activities geared toward creating an image unnaturally attractive to men. That's ferocious long-term dedication to a "hobby", and you can reasonably expect they want a return on investment. Enjoy their work as you would any other art exhibit, and walk on past.
If you want a woman who will stand beside you as an equal or helpmate instead, then try focusing instead on women who look a bit more like, well, you. Possibly a bit more of a belly because they generally have a metabolism better optimized to storing calories against the lean times than you, Comparable cleanliness and grooming. Not much makeup on a regular basis. Start there, and you'll at least be much more likely to be dealing with a person you can actually relate to, who spends their free time doing things they actually enjoy rather than trying to snag a good "catch", and who is looking for a partner to share their life with, rather than an investor in their beauty.
Isn't this the AC point exactly? Many women are like that and many men stay clear of them. The marketing and advertising industry just turns more and more young girls into the type you described, while more and more boys turn into men staying clear of such women. It will be practically to the extend that some day all women will be like that and all men will avoid them. Hence.. zero birth rate.
Well, it is a kind of equilibrium. There were women investing mainly in their attractiveness since... well, at least before the dawn of humankind. And yes, a lot of men stay clear, but not all. Those men and women tend to have a lot less children. Seems convenient to me.
There was one time when a woman I didn't know showed up at a meeting of an organization I belonged to. I started to talk to her (with, admittedly, a slight hope that it might develop into sex some time later), and a few minutes later I felt like I'd been in a job interview. One of the weirder conversations I've had.
How about tracing the problem back a little further, to marriage itself? After all, that's a wholly unnatural state of affairs shared by none of our primate cousins, and they seem to do just fine. Nor was it practiced by most of our ancestors throughout antiquity. It's an institution designed specifically to create social stability in agrarian societies, for the benefit of the nobles that ruled over them, with no particular regard for the well-being of the individuals involved. And then it turned really
Well, I was thinking specifically in terms of their social development. Not much of anything an animal can do is going to save them when humans decide to wipe them out.
C'mon, it's much more than that. The men in the US are not getting married, and having fewer children.
You wouldn't attribute that to the increased demands and expectations from women that makes it harder for some men to find a partner then? You don't think an improved awareness of the economic disadvantages fatherhood imposes on a man is involved? You think the gender bias in the legal system isn't putting men off marriage and the subsequent damage caused by a potential divorce?
It's increasingly difficult to justify marriage, fatherhood is a risky proposition when so many men end up paying to raise a child they're prevented from seeing and men are being told at school and university that they must adhere to a feminist ideal that in turn puts off many women that want a successful alpha male as a partner.
I guess it could just be all down to porn though. Yeah, porn and sexbots. Fuck me.
men are being told at school and university that they must adhere to a feminist ideal that in turn puts off many women that want a successful alpha male as a partner.
This one is my favorite. They've spent the last 35 years telling men to be better listeners, and getting them in touch with their feelings, and now I read all these articles wondering where all the masculine, take-charge men have gone. It's kinda funny, really.
I think that is absolutely hysterical. And guess what? They get what they've asked for and found out...it isn't what was wanted.
But guess what? You can be an alpha male without being an asshole. Too many beta males think that being an alpha means simply being an asshole.
This one is my favorite. They've spent the last 35 years telling men to be better listeners, and getting them in touch with their feelings, and now I read all these articles wondering where all the masculine, take-charge men have gone. It's kinda funny, really.
The funny part is that you read that shit.
Did you also read about the new diet secret that personal trainers don't want you to know about? Or that new face cream that plastic surgeons hate?
This one is my favorite. They've spent the last 35 years telling men to be better listeners, and getting them in touch with their feelings, and now I read all these articles wondering where all the masculine, take-charge men have gone. It's kinda funny, really.
The funny part is that you read that shit.
Did you also read about the new diet secret that personal trainers don't want you to know about? Or that new face cream that plastic surgeons hate?
I'm sorry if my tastes are too varied for you. Going forward I'll make sure to restrict my reading to graphic novels and the Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers.
I am going on record that this happened to me during my freshman introduction in college:
While explaining the school’s policy on consent, you needed explicit verbal permission to add any further intimacy to a sex act - and not “ooh yeah!”, you were expected to get your partner to say “Yes, Jeremy, you can take my bra off.” Any less, and you were at risk of being arrested by the campus police - yes, they had power of arrest - for sexual assault.
You wouldn't attribute that to the increased demands and expectations from women that makes it harder for some men to find a partner then?
I attribute it to the fact that women don't have to settle for anyone they don't want to settle down with. They can have their own careers and wait until they find someone they want as opposed to needing to marry because they didn't have any chance for a career.
You don't think an improved awareness of the economic disadvantages fatherhood imposes on a man is involved?
And what disadvantages are those? Having children costs money. That has been true from the being of time. And it's harder on women because most likely it is the woman who has to quit work to raise a child. That is an
Oh, agreed. I was replying a post that focussed on that one side though, so seemed prudent not to expand scope.
They can have their own careers
I think this is a massive contributor to reduced birth rates in 'developed' countries.
most likely it is the woman who has to quit work to raise a child. That is an extremely large economic disadvantage.
For which she is economically compensated by the man, who continues to suffer a lower life expectancy as a result of continuing to work while his partner enjoys a more relaxed lifestyle.
Divorce sucks. Don't assume only men get it bad in a divorce. Both parties are hurt. The children are hurt.
Yes, but predominantly it's the men that pay the financial cost of it all, and predominantly it's the men that lose the benefits
I think this is a massive contributor to reduced birth rates in 'developed' countries.
As well as unintended pregnancies.
For which she is economically compensated by the man, who continues to suffer a lower life expectancy as a result of continuing to work while his partner enjoys a more relaxed lifestyle.
Er what? She isn't economically "compensated". They, as a couple, earn less if one has to quit to raise children. As for life expectancy, that's kinda of illogical. If the woman lives longer, she should and will be worker longer than him.
Yes, but predominantly it's the men that pay the financial cost of it all, and predominantly it's the men that lose the benefits of being a parent.
It's not just men. Some divorce split proceeds equally of the marriage as legally with so much mixing it's hard to separate finances; however, in a number of states, any equity that each spouse brings into the marriage can be kept by that
When you make your mark in the world, watch out for guys with erasers.
-- The Wall Street Journal
slippery slope (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just the continuation of the "public health crisis" excuse to ban something people don't agree with. Smoking, Sugary drinks, guns, etc. The slippery slope continues.
Re:slippery slope (Score:0)
Re:slippery slope (Score:4, Insightful)
"At any rate, denying men access to porn will likely lead to more babies"
Or more likely, more rape
Re:slippery slope (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:slippery slope (Score:4, Informative)
I'd like to see the study that not only shows correlation, but causation between access to porn and rape statistics.
There is a correlation, but it's in the other direction.
http://idei.fr/sites/default/f... [idei.fr]
The results above suggest that potential rapists perceive pornography as a
substitute for rape. With the mass market introduction of the world wide web in the late-
1990’s, both pecuniary and non-pecuniary prices for pornography fell. The associated
decline in rape illustrated in the analysis here is consistent with a theory, such as that in
Posner (1994), in which pornography is a complement for masturbation or consensual
sex, which are themselves substitutes for rape, making pornography a net substitute for
rape.
There is research that suggests porn might have a causative relationship for reductions in rape, which would make a certain degree of sense, given that there will be fewer sexually frustrated men.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Specifically, the results suggest that a 10 percentage point increase in internet access is associated with a decline in reported rape victimization of around 7.3%. While admitting that data quality, omitted variables, functional form assumptions, and other confounding factors could potentially cause bias, I support this claim with six separate pieces of evidence. When considered as a whole, the empirical case is more compelling.
Additionally, this was pulled from only a few years of data within the US and the statics were mostly tablecloth math. All in all, it seems this one study is a biased outlier.
Re: (Score:2)
Apart from that being the only report that makes the claim "porn access reduces rape,"
I'm trying to stick with things that are reasonably open access.
Ferguson, Christopher J., and Richard D. Hartley. "The pleasure is momentary the expense damnable?: The influence of pornography on rape and sexual assault." Aggression and violent behavior 14.5 (2009): 323-329.
PDF at http://christopherjferguson.co... [christopherjferguson.com]
Victimization rates for rape in the United States demonstrate an inverse
relationship between pornography consumption and rape rates. Data from other nations have suggested
similar relationships. Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic
effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the
scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to
increased sexual assault behavior.
Fisher, William A., et al. "Pornography, sex crime, and paraphilia." Current psychiatry reports 15.6 (2013): 1-8.
PDF at https://www.researchgate.net/p... [researchgate.net]
On page 362, they have a chart showing that
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Correlation is not causation, but absence of correlation is absence of causation.
A study like the one mentioned in http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html [slate.com] doesn't prove that porn prevents rape.
It does, however, prove that porn doesn't increase rape.
And while smoke may not prove fire, fire's a good bet.
The study may not be enough to prove porn reduces rape, but it does point in that direction.
Re: (Score:2)
Also, I'd agree that porn doesn't increase rape. There are many studies that have come to that conclusion, even the ones which were intentionally trying to put porn in a bad light.
Re: (Score:2)
Prefacing this with the fact that I don't disagree with the thrust of your argument, necessarily.
Correlation is not causation, but absence of correlation is absence of causation.
Not actually true. One example is if event A causes B, and event A is non-causally correlated to event C, and C causes ~B, then you can show no correlation between A and B even though A causes B.
Or look at this guy's argument: http://theincidentaleconomist.... [theinciden...nomist.com]. I didn't check out the rest of his site but the mathematical argument seems sound.
Re: (Score:2)
Is that the latent feminist inside talking? Men are all sex craving beasts which will mindlessly rape if we can't find a pretty picture to masturbate to?
And as any list of fetishes would show you, it's amazing what people will masturbate to that isn't porn.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
No, your stupidity is.
Porn isn't a problem. Nice try blaming anything but the perpetrator... you're the SJW...
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I see no evidence that men are less tolerant of women's shit.
I see evidence that women's shit is increasing with their economic power *, no surprise there.
There are now women who's shit is so thick, no man will put up with it. I have no problem with that, her choice. But in the 1950s that woman would have been institutionalized (had she not grown up entirely differently).
Reduction in birth rate is tied to education of women, world wide.
* The basic inequality in life is: 'Women control half the mone
Re: slippery slope (Score:2, Insightful)
And American women are in general gold digging bitches. They are surrounded by men yet continue to be maximisers and look for something better that those around them (that isn't coming). Or those other women that would marry for a first time at 21, for second time at 25, for third time at 28, divorce them all and live of forcefully extracted alimony for the rest of their lives without a day working any real job. It is not surprising that within the first ten questions of meeting a woman (if she at all appro
Re: (Score:1)
Re: slippery slope (Score:5, Interesting)
I've met a few (blessedly few) women of such temperament, even a few friends, and I say go for it woman - be as blatant about it as you like, it makes it all the easier for me to steer clear, and there's certainly no shortage of men trying to buy women's attention with flashy cars, big bankrolls, etc. I say the two groups deserve each other, and may their financially-based relationships bring them as much happiness as money can buy.
If you've been suffering such a stream of repeated encounters with such women to breed the bitterness you're giving voice to, then let me offer a bit of advice: You know all those hot women with well-sculpted bodies, beautiful hair, and flawless makeup that invariably catch your eye? That almost always takes work, a LOT of work, to maintain. Between personal grooming and cosmetics, plus maintenance throughout the day, and regular exercise to maintain that sculpted body, you can easily be talking an hour or two per day. Plus almost completely depriving themselves of the sweet and fatty foods we all love. Assuming they also have a job to pay the bills, and sleep the recommended 8 hours a day, that can be over 1/4 of their daily free time spent on activities geared toward creating an image unnaturally attractive to men. That's ferocious long-term dedication to a "hobby", and you can reasonably expect they want a return on investment. Enjoy their work as you would any other art exhibit, and walk on past.
If you want a woman who will stand beside you as an equal or helpmate instead, then try focusing instead on women who look a bit more like, well, you. Possibly a bit more of a belly because they generally have a metabolism better optimized to storing calories against the lean times than you, Comparable cleanliness and grooming. Not much makeup on a regular basis. Start there, and you'll at least be much more likely to be dealing with a person you can actually relate to, who spends their free time doing things they actually enjoy rather than trying to snag a good "catch", and who is looking for a partner to share their life with, rather than an investor in their beauty.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I bet you'd say this and then promptly go marry a Filipino woman who only wants you for your money.
Only if she were studying to be a nurse to recover from her bad choices.
Re: (Score:2)
Also, when the subject of a prenup comes up, they'll bat their heavily made-up eyes and say "Oh honey, you don't need a prenup. You can trust me!".
Re: (Score:2)
There was one time when a woman I didn't know showed up at a meeting of an organization I belonged to. I started to talk to her (with, admittedly, a slight hope that it might develop into sex some time later), and a few minutes later I felt like I'd been in a job interview. One of the weirder conversations I've had.
Re: (Score:2)
How about tracing the problem back a little further, to marriage itself? After all, that's a wholly unnatural state of affairs shared by none of our primate cousins, and they seem to do just fine. Nor was it practiced by most of our ancestors throughout antiquity. It's an institution designed specifically to create social stability in agrarian societies, for the benefit of the nobles that ruled over them, with no particular regard for the well-being of the individuals involved. And then it turned really
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I was thinking specifically in terms of their social development. Not much of anything an animal can do is going to save them when humans decide to wipe them out.
Re:slippery slope (Score:5, Insightful)
C'mon, it's much more than that. The men in the US are not getting married, and having fewer children.
You wouldn't attribute that to the increased demands and expectations from women that makes it harder for some men to find a partner then?
You don't think an improved awareness of the economic disadvantages fatherhood imposes on a man is involved?
You think the gender bias in the legal system isn't putting men off marriage and the subsequent damage caused by a potential divorce?
It's increasingly difficult to justify marriage, fatherhood is a risky proposition when so many men end up paying to raise a child they're prevented from seeing and men are being told at school and university that they must adhere to a feminist ideal that in turn puts off many women that want a successful alpha male as a partner.
I guess it could just be all down to porn though. Yeah, porn and sexbots. Fuck me.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:slippery slope (Score:4, Insightful)
men are being told at school and university that they must adhere to a feminist ideal that in turn puts off many women that want a successful alpha male as a partner.
This one is my favorite. They've spent the last 35 years telling men to be better listeners, and getting them in touch with their feelings, and now I read all these articles wondering where all the masculine, take-charge men have gone. It's kinda funny, really.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
This one is my favorite. They've spent the last 35 years telling men to be better listeners, and getting them in touch with their feelings, and now I read all these articles wondering where all the masculine, take-charge men have gone. It's kinda funny, really.
The funny part is that you read that shit.
Did you also read about the new diet secret that personal trainers don't want you to know about? Or that new face cream that plastic surgeons hate?
Re: (Score:2)
This one is my favorite. They've spent the last 35 years telling men to be better listeners, and getting them in touch with their feelings, and now I read all these articles wondering where all the masculine, take-charge men have gone. It's kinda funny, really.
The funny part is that you read that shit. Did you also read about the new diet secret that personal trainers don't want you to know about? Or that new face cream that plastic surgeons hate?
I'm sorry if my tastes are too varied for you. Going forward I'll make sure to restrict my reading to graphic novels and the Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers.
Re: (Score:1)
I'm sorry if my tastes are too varied for you.
Maybe just start with putting down Cosmo as your source of truth for about women...
Re: (Score:2)
Not Posting Anonymously (Score:2)
I am going on record that this happened to me during my freshman introduction in college:
While explaining the school’s policy on consent, you needed explicit verbal permission to add any further intimacy to a sex act - and not “ooh yeah!”, you were expected to get your partner to say “Yes, Jeremy, you can take my bra off.” Any less, and you were at risk of being arrested by the campus police - yes, they had power of arrest - for sexual assault.
Further, the female could retroac
Re: (Score:2)
Your post is completely one-sided.
You wouldn't attribute that to the increased demands and expectations from women that makes it harder for some men to find a partner then?
I attribute it to the fact that women don't have to settle for anyone they don't want to settle down with. They can have their own careers and wait until they find someone they want as opposed to needing to marry because they didn't have any chance for a career.
You don't think an improved awareness of the economic disadvantages fatherhood imposes on a man is involved?
And what disadvantages are those? Having children costs money. That has been true from the being of time. And it's harder on women because most likely it is the woman who has to quit work to raise a child. That is an
Re: (Score:2)
Your post is completely one-sided.
Oh, agreed. I was replying a post that focussed on that one side though, so seemed prudent not to expand scope.
They can have their own careers
I think this is a massive contributor to reduced birth rates in 'developed' countries.
most likely it is the woman who has to quit work to raise a child. That is an extremely large economic disadvantage.
For which she is economically compensated by the man, who continues to suffer a lower life expectancy as a result of continuing to work while his partner enjoys a more relaxed lifestyle.
Divorce sucks. Don't assume only men get it bad in a divorce. Both parties are hurt. The children are hurt.
Yes, but predominantly it's the men that pay the financial cost of it all, and predominantly it's the men that lose the benefits
Re: (Score:2)
I think this is a massive contributor to reduced birth rates in 'developed' countries.
As well as unintended pregnancies.
For which she is economically compensated by the man, who continues to suffer a lower life expectancy as a result of continuing to work while his partner enjoys a more relaxed lifestyle.
Er what? She isn't economically "compensated". They, as a couple, earn less if one has to quit to raise children. As for life expectancy, that's kinda of illogical. If the woman lives longer, she should and will be worker longer than him.
Yes, but predominantly it's the men that pay the financial cost of it all, and predominantly it's the men that lose the benefits of being a parent.
It's not just men. Some divorce split proceeds equally of the marriage as legally with so much mixing it's hard to separate finances; however, in a number of states, any equity that each spouse brings into the marriage can be kept by that