Look at the comments on the pcmag.com site. RMS is there in person demanding it be called "GNU plus Linux". By his logic we need to also make sure Qualcomm is listed, and Kilby (ICs), and Shockley (transistors), and who knows what else.
I think Wind River is more often used because their OS is a Real Time OS. I remember reading something about why they use an RT OS, something like to know exactly how long a task will take and how much resources it will use.
But a "Penguins on Mars", sounds like a 50s horror movie
Yeah. VxWorks is not new or sexy, but it is really well understood and rock solid. Though Linux as a RTOS has really matured over the decades, so always nice seeing it get usage and visibility in high profile projects like this.
It really would be interesting to see just how far off the mainline they had to go for their requirements to be met. I would get at a minimum, the RT patches, but did they have to beyond those.
Those industries are really conservative. I used to work with VxWorks. I changed to a company using Linux. Now the company I came from also uses Linux - for a hard real-time control system, where failure can cost a lot of money.
something like to know exactly how long a task will take and how much resources it will use. That is not the definition of a real time OS.
The most important points about Real Time OSes is predictive scheduling, latency to handle interrupts, predictable time spent in kernel space etc.
In other words, if a sensor gives some input and that is written into a pipe for some piece of software to handle that event, the OS gives you the guarantee about a certain timeframe till your software is actually scheduled to r
and you can use intra-task semaphores to say when a task has completed so you don't get deadlocks, and all of the other RTOS stuff VxWorks has.
Used it it the 2000's for a VOIP platform and still got the T-Shirt:-)
While this makes the small robot much cheaper (hardly a concern when getting it there costs so much more), the electronics do not appear to be designed for highly reliability which seems like something that would be changed on future flying robots. It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway. I wouldn't put much money on Linux being used in a future scientific drone just yet.
It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway.
I don't know. They didn't send a drill just to prove that it's feasible. You'd think with all the opportunity (launch/trip_frequency) costs behind it that they'd put more into it than demonstration only.
Correction. I re-read their statement and "Its mission is to show that it's possible to fly on Mars using commercial off-the-shelf hardware and open-source software.", so, yeah, GP AC has an interesting question.
It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway. I wouldn't put much money on Linux being used in a future scientific drone just yet.
They were going to use Windows, but the test copters on earth kept crashing after mandatory updates.
It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway. I wouldn't put much money on Linux being used in a future scientific drone just yet.
They were going to use Windows, but the test copters on earth kept crashing after mandatory updates.
More precisely, they saturated the network which also crashed some other probes.
Between that and PTSD from the Windows notifier sound, I turned the machine off, locked it in a file cabinet, and now turn it on at most once every six months.
Hah! That reminds me - My Windows laptop will tell me that I plugged in headphones, when I plug in headphones. Who knew!
The desktop is where good operating systems go to die.
So, you're calling Windows a "good" OS?
It is like trying to appeal to the AOL crowd in the late 90s.
Not entirely sure how that's relevant...
I hope Linux kills the desktop, and then some.
and what are you suggesting? Everything on bootloader-locked, modification-resistant phones and tablets? Dumb terminals and clouds? "Raspberry Pi should be enough for anybody"? If the desktop is gone, where is general purpose computing done?
The desktop is where good operating systems go to die.
So, you're calling Windows a "good" OS?
The kernel of today's Microsoft Windows OS is the Windows NT kernel, which was developed by Dave Cutler after he left DEC. It is a re-implementation of DEC's VAX/VMS, which was a server operating system. VAX/VMS was a re-implementation of DEC's RSX-11M, also written by Dave Cutler and his team. RSX-11M was a real-time operating systems kernel.
Thus the kernel went from real-time to server to desktop, where it went to die.
I don't know what that is about still. Me, a Windows guy, switched over to Linux (the noob Mint distro) around 2 years ago and since then use it full-time for work and at home. I'd say Linux now is a very viable option on the desktop.
well, the last thing Tux needs in his spacesuit, is bugs crawling around in it and biting him on his behind. Hmm.. maybe a pre-flight de-bug of his spacesuit?
Which kernel version? Does it use PREEMPT_RT? Did they modify it to make it a true real-time version? How did they fix the godawful latency in SPI communications?
I doubt their issue will be linux on the drone. Assuming everything works fine in the martian atmosphere the most likely problem is the rotors. Even carbon fiber rotors have to be routinely replaced on these drones on earth. The first time it drifts and clips a rock it will be game over.
As a Linux guy of course I'm pleased to see Linux running on mars, but also as a Linux guy I know that Linux is not a hard realtime operating system, which is absolutely required for control of propulsion systems, motors and probably a number of other critical systems. So I was just going to comment that I think Wind River is actually still running on the rover, then I thought I'd swing by Wind River's site to see what they had to say about it, and yup. [windriver.com]
I also did a quick read through the "framework" code on Github and saw no evidence of any realtime capability. All totally unsurprising, and yes it's immensely satisfying to see Linux up there on Mars, but let's be clear that it's not running the whole show. And given Linus's lack of interest in realtime in general, I doubt it ever will get there. Plus, the kind of processors that make great general purpose computers usually have crappy real time response. So I wouldn't even advocate a clever hack like building the realtime OS into a hypervisor that runs Linux as a guest. I mean, you could do it and get hard latencies down to a few microseconds but not better than that. And in many control applications, microseconds might as well be years. So what we will continue to see space systems comprising high level parts, and multiple realtime parts running on simple processors specialized to the task. And yes, those will most probably be running Wind River for the foreseeable future.
Uh oh (Score:5, Funny)
Are certain people going to demand we refer to it as Gnu/Perseverance now?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Uh oh (Score:2)
If you could get a rocket that can lift him ...
Unless... does he like beans? :D
Re: (Score:3)
No, Ingnuity is the one running GNU/Linux....
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Look at the comments on the pcmag.com site. RMS is there in person demanding it be called "GNU plus Linux".
Good grief - I thought you were kidding! But nope, there he is.
Re: (Score:2)
Probably GNU/Preservative and you have to "give back what you contribute" ...
Re: (Score:2)
nah, that would be silly.
Rather, the planet must now be referred to as GNU/Mars . . .
Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
This is the year of linux on the, uh, planet Mars.
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
And the Martian Year of Linux is twice as long!
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
At least Mars can brag it has more Linux installs than Windows.
Re: Finally! (Score:2)
Earth can too.
It's Android/Linux, after all. :)
Re: (Score:1)
You mean Googix.
Re: Finally! (Score:1)
Linux is now on Mars (Score:2)
Is there no world left pristine?
Re: Finally! (Score:2)
In Sovjet Union Linux runs on Mars
Re: Finally! (Score:1)
RT (Score:4, Interesting)
I think Wind River is more often used because their OS is a Real Time OS. I remember reading something about why they use an RT OS, something like to know exactly how long a task will take and how much resources it will use.
But a "Penguins on Mars", sounds like a 50s horror movie
Re: (Score:2)
Wind River VxWorks has run all sorts of real time systems for .mil and industry for decades.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Is this Mars copter using the RT patchset?
If so, maybe another nudge to mainline it.
Re: (Score:3)
It really would be interesting to see just how far off the mainline they had to go for their requirements to be met. I would get at a minimum, the RT patches, but did they have to beyond those.
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
VxWorks is not new or sexy, but it is really well understood and rock solid.
Clearly someone who has never had the misfortune of working in a VxWorks shop.
Re: RT (Score:2)
I'd love to hear some stories... I think we all would... Tell us a horror story, uncle!
Re: RT (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
something like to know exactly how long a task will take and how much resources it will use.
That is not the definition of a real time OS.
The most important points about Real Time OSes is predictive scheduling, latency to handle interrupts, predictable time spent in kernel space etc.
In other words, if a sensor gives some input and that is written into a pipe for some piece of software to handle that event, the OS gives you the guarantee about a certain timeframe till your software is actually scheduled to r
Re: (Score:1)
Technology demonstrator (Score:5, Informative)
I case you are wondering about this little "Ingenuity" helicopter, [nasa.gov] it's a technology demonstrator device that has little purpose besides just proving it can fly around. It's composed of mostly COTS parts with the exception of the rotors and linkages. [nasa.gov]
While this makes the small robot much cheaper (hardly a concern when getting it there costs so much more), the electronics do not appear to be designed for highly reliability which seems like something that would be changed on future flying robots. It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway. I wouldn't put much money on Linux being used in a future scientific drone just yet.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know. They didn't send a drill just to prove that it's feasible. You'd think with all the opportunity (launch/trip_frequency) costs behind it that they'd put more into it than demonstration only.
Re:Technology demonstrator (Score:5, Insightful)
If they don't continue to use Linux on future drones/landers, then I don't know what the fuck the point of the technology demonstration is.
Yes, apparently. The demo is to see if they can fly.
Why would you demonstrate that a certain technology works, only to yank it and replace it with something else when it's game time?
When they do real science missions, three possibilities come to mind as to what they will be concerned with:
* Reliability
* Longevity
* Scalability
Linux may well be the choice, but it has to satisfy stringent requirements.
Re: (Score:2)
Correction. I re-read their statement and "Its mission is to show that it's possible to fly on Mars using commercial off-the-shelf hardware and open-source software.", so, yeah, GP AC has an interesting question.
Re: (Score:1)
Realtime OS fit the bill much better than interrupt driven general purpose OS. Drone may well be the last Linux device on Mars.
Re: Technology demonstrator (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway. I wouldn't put much money on Linux being used in a future scientific drone just yet.
They were going to use Windows, but the test copters on earth kept crashing after mandatory updates.
Re: (Score:2)
It's merely demonstrating that a flying drone in the mars atmosphere is a feasible pathway. I wouldn't put much money on Linux being used in a future scientific drone just yet.
They were going to use Windows, but the test copters on earth kept crashing after mandatory updates.
More precisely, they saturated the network which also crashed some other probes.
Re: (Score:2)
Between that and PTSD from the Windows notifier sound, I turned the machine off, locked it in a file cabinet, and now turn it on at most once every six months.
Hah! That reminds me - My Windows laptop will tell me that I plugged in headphones, when I plug in headphones. Who knew!
Re: (Score:2)
Ah yes, the "no shit" notifications. I love those. I'm all like "well thanks...".
Re: Technology demonstrator (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
So.. blue screen of death?
Since it was Mars, Windows created a special Red screen of death.
Re: Technology demonstrator (Score:1)
Windows blue screen, Linux red planet (Score:1)
Got nothing
SpaceX uses Linux (Score:2)
This could be the year (Score:5, Funny)
Linux has made it to everywhere in the universe, except the desktop.
Re: This could be the year (Score:2)
Good.
The desktop is where good operating systems go to die.
It is like trying to appeal to the AOL crowd in the late 90s.
I hope Linux kills the desktop, and then some.
Re: (Score:2)
So, I'm really confused...
Good.
The desktop is where good operating systems go to die.
So, you're calling Windows a "good" OS?
It is like trying to appeal to the AOL crowd in the late 90s.
Not entirely sure how that's relevant...
I hope Linux kills the desktop, and then some.
and what are you suggesting? Everything on bootloader-locked, modification-resistant phones and tablets? Dumb terminals and clouds? "Raspberry Pi should be enough for anybody"? If the desktop is gone, where is general purpose computing done?
Re: (Score:2)
So, I'm really confused...
Good.
The desktop is where good operating systems go to die.
So, you're calling Windows a "good" OS?
The kernel of today's Microsoft Windows OS is the Windows NT kernel, which was developed by Dave Cutler after he left DEC. It is a re-implementation of DEC's VAX/VMS, which was a server operating system. VAX/VMS was a re-implementation of DEC's RSX-11M, also written by Dave Cutler and his team. RSX-11M was a real-time operating systems kernel.
Thus the kernel went from real-time to server to desktop, where it went to die.
Re: This could be the year (Score:3)
Linux Trek [Re:This could be the year] (Score:1)
"Where no man just can't friggen go"
Questions (Score:2)
What distro?
What kernel version?
What init?
General bugs they ran into?
What could Linux/FOSS do better to be used for more space missions?
Re: Questions (Score:1)
Which distro? (Score:2)
Which kernel version? Does it use PREEMPT_RT? Did they modify it to make it a true real-time version? How did they fix the godawful latency in SPI communications?
It does NOT run Linux (Score:1)
It ROVES Linux.
*cue rimshot*
Todays Joke (Score:2)
Mars, the 2nd planet in the solar system to have more computers running Linux than Windows.
Odd choice (Score:2)
I doubt their issue will be linux on the drone. Assuming everything works fine in the martian atmosphere the most likely problem is the rotors. Even carbon fiber rotors have to be routinely replaced on these drones on earth. The first time it drifts and clips a rock it will be game over.
Re: Odd choice (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sand in the bearings.
Still running Wind River (Score:4, Informative)
As a Linux guy of course I'm pleased to see Linux running on mars, but also as a Linux guy I know that Linux is not a hard realtime operating system, which is absolutely required for control of propulsion systems, motors and probably a number of other critical systems. So I was just going to comment that I think Wind River is actually still running on the rover, then I thought I'd swing by Wind River's site to see what they had to say about it, and yup. [windriver.com]
I also did a quick read through the "framework" code on Github and saw no evidence of any realtime capability. All totally unsurprising, and yes it's immensely satisfying to see Linux up there on Mars, but let's be clear that it's not running the whole show. And given Linus's lack of interest in realtime in general, I doubt it ever will get there. Plus, the kind of processors that make great general purpose computers usually have crappy real time response. So I wouldn't even advocate a clever hack like building the realtime OS into a hypervisor that runs Linux as a guest. I mean, you could do it and get hard latencies down to a few microseconds but not better than that. And in many control applications, microseconds might as well be years. So what we will continue to see space systems comprising high level parts, and multiple realtime parts running on simple processors specialized to the task. And yes, those will most probably be running Wind River for the foreseeable future.
Linux Is Now on Mars, Thanks to NASA's Perseveranc (Score:2)
Obligatory observation (Score:1)
Someone had to say it...