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Math

John Urschel: The 300 Pound Mathematician Who Hits People For a Living 170

Posted by samzenpus from the protect-your-head dept.
HughPickens.com writes: Kate Murphy writes at NYT about mathematician John Urschel whose latest contribution to the mathematical realm was a paper for the Journal of Computational Mathematics with the impressively esoteric title, "A Cascadic Multigrid Algorithm for Computing the Fiedler Vector of Graph Laplacians." "Believe me, I am aware that terms such as multigrid, Fiedler, and vector are not words that people use in their daily lives," says Urshel.

But as an offensive guard for the Baltimore Ravens, John Urschel regularly goes head to head with the top defensive players in the NFL and does his best to keep quarterback Joe Flacco out of harm's way. "I play because I love the game. I love hitting people," Urshel writes. "There's a rush you get when you go out on the field, lay everything on the line and physically dominate the player across from you. This is a feeling I'm (for lack of a better word) addicted to, and I'm hard-pressed to find anywhere else."

Urschel acknowledges that he has faced questions from NFL officials, journalists, fans and fellow mathematicians about why he runs the risk of potential brain injury from playing football when he has "a bright career ahead of me in mathematics" but doesn't feel able to quit. "When I go too long without physical contact I'm not a pleasant person to be around. This is why, every offseason, I train in kickboxing and wrestling in addition to my lifting, running and position-specific drill work."
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John Urschel: The 300 Pound Mathematician Who Hits People For a Living More

John Urschel: The 300 Pound Mathematician Who Hits People For a Living

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  • Keeps the brain sharp (Score:5, Insightful)

    by weilawei ( 897823 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @03:06AM (#49687545)

    I prefer cycling and climbing myself; not really into hitting things/being hit. Sitting in a chair all the time isn't healthy.

    • I prefer cycling and climbing myself; not really into hitting things/being hit.

      Both cycling and climbing are great physical exercices, plus, as any physical exercice, good for the mind and soul also, but those two even more because they are outdoors; usualy cycling and climbing is something you (can) do alone, something "hitting things/being hit" is not - the "hitting things/being hit" kind of physical exercices are great also because they are more of a "game", plus a way to socialize in a more natural way.

      Sitting in a chair all the time isn't healthy.

      You are absolutely right, thank you for reminding me to go to the gym! I am a m

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      "When I go too long without physical contact I'm not a pleasant person to be around. This is why, every offseason, I train in kickboxing and wrestling in addition to my lifting, running and position-specific drill work."

      The mathematician-football player sounds like a brutish person worthy of imprisonment for the safety of society. He is a time-bomb awaiting to detonate.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jodido ( 1052890 )
        He said "not a pleasant person to be around." I'm that way too sometimes. Who isn't? Why do you call him "brutish" and "a time-bomb"? There's not a word to suggest he's ever been violent outside his job.

        • He said if he goes too long without physically assaulting people he becomes "not a pleasant person to be around". Most people aren't like that, and those that are don't usually admit it.

          • He said if he goes too long without physically assaulting people he becomes "not a pleasant person to be around". Most people aren't like that, and those that are don't usually admit it.

            I think you are reading too much into his statement. He enjoys physical sports. If he can't do what he enjoys, he's cranky. Who isn't cranky when they don't get to participate in their chosen hobby/pastime over a long stretch? Maybe there are people who have no interests outside of work and are happy to drudge away with no break; I'm certainly not one of them. I have to look away from time to time.

            • That's not what he said.

              When football season if over plain old football training doesn't provide enough physical violence to make him pleasant so he adds kickboxing and wrestling where you do get to physically assault people in training.

              He didn't say he "enjoys physical sports" he said he needs to be able to perform physical violence on other people in order to not be "not a pleasant person to be around".

              Sure maybe he just worded things badly - then again he's supposed to be smart in a field of logic and pr

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dargaud ( 518470 )
      Same here [gdargaud.net]. I've long wondered why climbing is so chock-full of intellectuals (somewhat less so in the US than in Europe, lots of dirtbags without a job in the former). Most climbers are engineers, researchers, etc... It's certainly not because of money because once you have harness, shoes and rope you are pretty much set for the next few years. Maybe because it's one of the few sports where you can stop and think for as long as you want (or rather as long as your arms can hold).

  • Surprising to those unfamiliar with mathematicians (Score:5, Informative)

    by Crashmarik ( 635988 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @03:20AM (#49687563)

    For the rest of us no surprise at all. 40 years ago I studied graph theory with a professor that was also a competitive karate fighter.

    • Re:Surprising to those unfamiliar with mathematici (Score:5, Interesting)

      by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @07:29AM (#49687995) Journal
      I think that the 'surprise' here is related to the (quite numerous, now that the NFL has pretty much lost the battle to keep CTE under wraps) stories about how the head trauma you experience in football has a nasty habit of wrecking your brain in a variety of unpleasant ways.

      The fact that not all math professors are wholly sedentary, feeble, and bookish isn't a huge surprise; but seeing one doing something well known to have a high risk of chewing up his brain and spitting it out, that is somewhat curious. I would have expected him to choose something with more below-the-neck contact. Soft tissue damage and broken bones are something that humans cope with fairly well, and Team Medicine knows a lot about dealing with, if natural recuperation isn't cutting it; but brains are touchier; and there is a lot less we can do for you if yours isn't working so well.

      • Not everyone can run the probabilities in their head...oh wait...

      • I don't follow football a lot, but my understanding is that players on the offensive line are a lot less susceptible to this problem. They don't tend to tack other players or collide at high speeds. They're almost right next to the opposing player who needs to be stopped and usually just end up grappling with this person. Contrast this with other positions where the player needs to tackle someone or ends up getting tackled a lot.

        Players on the line are more likely to have their knees worn out. Carrying t
        • I doubt they are less susceptible. They may even be more susceptible, as they are butting heads on every snap, not just when they tackle or are tackled. Christ, just take a look at their helmets after the first quarter. I was a pulling guard in high school, and trust me; you'd be amazed at some of the impacts you experience on the line. And that was 20 years ago. These guys today are 6'7, 300+ lbs, and some run a 4.6-4.7 40 yard dash. The amount of power they generate off the line is incredible.

        • I don't follow football a lot, but my understanding is that players on the offensive line are a lot less susceptible to this problem. They don't tend to tack other players or collide at high speeds. They're almost right next to the opposing player who needs to be stopped and usually just end up grappling with this person. Contrast this with other positions where the player needs to tackle someone or ends up getting tackled a lot.

          Players on the front lines have incredibly high rates of TBI because one of the common methods used by both the O and D lines is to whack the opposing player in the head to disorient them. TBI is greatly influenced by the frequent whacks to the head as well as using one's own head as a weapon - one doesn't need to be knocked out to have a concussion or subject to TBI.

  • Discrimination (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GigaplexNZ ( 1233886 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @03:24AM (#49687577)

    Urschel acknowledges that he has faced questions from NFL officials, journalists, fans and fellow mathematicians about why he runs the risk of potential brain injury from playing football when he has "a bright career ahead of me in mathematics"

    Funny how the NFL officials only care about potential brain injury on players who are good at math. If the risk of brain injury was truly that high, nobody should be playing it.

    • Re:Discrimination (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Chrisq ( 894406 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @04:10AM (#49687641)

      Urschel acknowledges that he has faced questions from NFL officials, journalists, fans and fellow mathematicians about why he runs the risk of potential brain injury from playing football when he has "a bright career ahead of me in mathematics"

      Funny how the NFL officials only care about potential brain injury on players who are good at math. If the risk of brain injury was truly that high, nobody should be playing it.

      In fact you could argue that Urschel is in a position where he can evaluate the probability of potential risks and impacts and make an informed decision on whether to play whereas many players can't.

      • In fact you could argue that Urschel is in a position where he can evaluate the probability of potential risks and impacts and make an informed decision on whether to play whereas many players can't.

        Since he has no medical training - why would you even think he's in a better position to do so? Being able to evaluate the mathematical probability of injury != being able to evaluate the medical risks. Two entirely different problem domains.

        And that's setting aside the issue that we don't really have the dat

    • Re:Discrimination (Score:5, Insightful)

      by disposable60 ( 735022 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @07:39AM (#49688021) Journal

      I think the answer here is that an NFL career pays rather better than an Academic one. If he can retire with his faculties intact, he won't have to chase grants and prizes to be comfortable.

      • I think the answer here is that an NFL career pays rather better than an Academic one. If he can retire with his faculties intact, he won't have to chase grants and prizes to be comfortable.

        This. Given that he's a lineman he's actually got a pretty good chance of avoiding CTE. Linemen collide on every play, but they do it at relatively low speed, since they only have about two feet in which to accelerate. If he's cautious with his head, careful with his money, and keeps his career short, Urschel has a good chance of walking away intact and independently wealthy after four or five years.

        • Mike Webster is a well-known case of a CTE sufferer, but considering the far higher incidence among skill players and defense, I'd say it's merely the exception that proves the rule.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:Discrimination (Score:5, Interesting)

      by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @07:56AM (#49688087) Journal
      Given the NFL's more or less uniformly dishonorable record on football related traumatic brain injury (roughly the same honesty, and similar stalling tactics, as tobacco producers); it wouldn't entirely surprise me if they are worried about this guy because he's a football player with an easily demonstrable history of high intellectual capability.

      If he ends up a pitiful sad-sack, markedly damaged, the story pretty much writes itself: "From published mathematician with lots of papers you don't even understand the title of, to broken man, thanks to football!". In players without any baseline, or where the baseline is roughly 'normal to sub-normal intelligence, no non-football skills of significant note', there may still end up being a sad story of cognitive effects(it doesn't just knock off IQ points, depression, emotional disregulation, and other quality-of-life ruiners are pretty typical); but the story won't be nice and clear cut in the same way.

    • Fortunately, hes playing the right position if he wants the least head trauma possible. Of all the positions, lineman have to deal with the smallest velocity vectors of any (well, besides kickers). Concussions are far more common among 'skill positions' where players are frequently moving at high speeds and a target/are targeting for tackling. Offensive Lineman just push players or prevent players from advancing...kinda like a Sumo wrestler.

      • Fortunately, hes playing the right position if he wants the least head trauma possible. Of all the positions, lineman have to deal with the smallest velocity vectors of any (well, besides kickers). Concussions are far more common among 'skill positions' where players are frequently moving at high speeds and a target/are targeting for tackling. Offensive Lineman just push players or prevent players from advancing...kinda like a Sumo wrestler.

        Then there is that mass thing. A quarterback at 240 pounds being nailed by a steroid fueled tackle who is nearing 400 pounds.

        Math and physics, all rolled into one game.

    • Really nobody should be playing football. Brain injuries are just one of the numerous medical problems caused by football. One might consider why one has hostile moods in the first place rather than trying to control that demon by feeding it.

      • Therapy through sports (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @09:24AM (#49688617)

        Really nobody should be playing football.

        Curiously this is almost always said by people who never played themselves. Tell me, what exactly is the problem with consenting adults playing a potentially violent game where there is some chance of getting hurt? How is it worse that an X-Games skateboarder who knows he's going to injure himself at some point? Or a sailor who knows they might drown?

        Brain injuries are just one of the numerous medical problems caused by football

        The only real problem I see with that is that children aren't adequately protected by the rules of the game when they play it. If an adult wants to take the risk of injury then that's their problem. They can reasonably be expected to understand the potential consequences of their participation. Children, not so much and incidence of concussions and certain other injuries in american football are far higher than for most other sports played by youths.

        One might consider why one has hostile moods in the first place rather than trying to control that demon by feeding it.

        One of the demonstrated best ways to deal with hostile or other moods is through exercise and sports. I cannot think of a more appropriate outlet or better treatment for such issues. I would much rather someone work out their issues on the playing field than in some less appropriate venue.

        • Really nobody should be playing football.

          Curiously this is almost always said by people who never played themselves. Tell me, what exactly is the problem with consenting adults playing a potentially violent game where there is some chance of getting hurt? How is it worse that an X-Games skateboarder who knows he's going to injure himself at some point? Or a sailor who knows they might drown?

          You make very good points, though I read the GP as pointing out the apparent irrationality (to some) of playing football, rather than trying to outlaw it or something. It's one thing to make an argument that "no one should do X because X is bad, and thus X doesn't make sense"; it's slightly different to argue that "no one should ever be allowed to do X."

          In any case, whatever the GP meant, I certainly don't have a problem with consenting adults doing whatever -- particularly if they are informed about the

        • However:

          For reducing anger and aggression, the worst possible advice to give people is to tell them to imagine their provocateur’s face on a pillow or punching bag as they wallop it, yet this is precisely what many pop psychologists advise people to do. If followed, such advice will only make people angrier and more aggressive.

          Source: http://www-personal.umich.edu/... [umich.edu]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ogive17 ( 691899 )

      Funny how the NFL officials only care about potential brain injury on players who are good at math. If the risk of brain injury was truly that high, nobody should be playing it.

      I don't think that is their intent. Most of the players in the NFL do not have a second career to fall back on once their playing days are done, let alone one that should pay them a decent salary. The players themselves know the risks now but the alure of making millions of dollars for a few years of harsh physical punishment is seen as a worthy risk.

  • Co-authors (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Kinda lame not mentioning the three co-authors that worked with him on that paper.

    • The whole story is lame, because it's not about the paper or his research but about his leisure time activities.

      Who cares? How about a story about Joe the Plumber's sports at the local bowling center instead?

      • You have it backwards. The NFL is his job. Mathematics is his leisure-time activity. Personally, I think that unusual enough to warrant an article.

  • Muscles and brains are not mutually exclusive (Score:3)

    by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @04:27AM (#49687669) Homepage

    So I don't understand why this seems to come as a surprise to a lot of people. We're physical *and* mental beings, you need to exercise both aspects to be truly healthy IMO. However there do seem to be far to many people who focus on one to the exclusion of the other (and even more who don't focus on either but thats for another argument).

    • It is quite rare for someone to be capable of working at a professional level in sports and academics at the same time.

      • It is quite rare for someone to be capable of working at a professional level in sports and academics at the same time.

        Not as rare as you might think. I've been in the sport of wrestling for 35 years and D1 college wrestling has world class talent in the sport. Right now the toughest wrestling conference in the country is the Big10. The second toughest conference is the Eastern Intercollegiate Wrestling Association (EIWA) which consists primarily of the Ivy League and Patriot League schools - schools like Lehigh, Cornell, Princeton, Harvard, American, Army, Navy, Columbia and the EIWA routinely has several of the top ten

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Pulzar ( 81031 )

          I myself competed in D1 college wrestling at an EIWA school while getting an engineering degree and I now have two master's degrees, one in business and one in engineering.

          Not to take anything away from your achievements (I certainly couldn't compete in any sport at that level), but college wrestling isn't exactly "professional-level sports". Your athletic activity was still a part-time one while focusing on your education... The professional athletes, whose full-time job is to play sports, are exceedingl

          • Not to take anything away from your achievements (I certainly couldn't compete in any sport at that level), but college wrestling isn't exactly "professional-level sports". Your athletic activity was still a part-time one while focusing on your education...

            You are quite wrong. Collegiate wrestling very much IS pro level athletics. I've been there and done it and know first hand. It is a full time job on top of your academic load. We're talking 40+ hours a week when in-season. And at a school like Cornell or Lehigh or Northwestern or Stanford they don't cut you any slack in the classroom. While the pay isn't as much as say someone in pro basketball (not even close), the amount of work it requires is very much the same to be at the top of the sport. Furt

    • Maybe because one is more satisfying than the other.

    • So I don't understand why this seems to come as a surprise to a lot of people.

      It goes against the dumb jock/wimpy nerd stereotypes most people have.

  • You can be both types of people... apk (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Scholarly & Athletic: I was a lettering NCAA athlete in Lacrosse (violent enough) for LeMoyne College (an often division or national champ @ division II level) + good enough to get room + board partial combined academic/athletic scholarship for it.

    (I was pretty much "straight A's" elementary school to highschool - senior year I didn't give a hoot since I had my credits done by junior year & I went to work after going for 1 class most of senior year only in the a.m. then off to work during the rest o

    • You can be *ANYTHING* you want in this life, both the mind & body are "plastic" responding to the needs you have you place on them...

      *There are, no limits: Only the limits you put on yourself...

      Right, so Stephen Hawking could have out-run Usain bolt if he'd just applied himself properly?

  • Tennis and Computing (Score:2, Interesting)

    by lkcl ( 517947 )

    two years ago i took up tennis at the recommendation of a friend. before that i'd done tai ji, full-contact karate (shin kyu-kshin), long-distance skating (86 miles athens-to-atlanta 1999, 65 miles new york park 1999, 26 miles rotterdam 2006) and yoga (ashtanga and T.M Asanas). it's a big list of different physical activities, which have the following things in common:

    * complex coordinated movement
    * requiring or recommending very deep breathing (skating especially)
    * very long and regular practice

    the reaso

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dargaud ( 518470 )
      Sounds like you need to try rock climbing. The one on lead trad (placing protection yourself), not the kind on plastic you can do at the gym.

  • 300 Pound Nerd? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 14, 2015 @05:00AM (#49687745)

    Ha, that's nothing!

  • I'm with him (Score:5, Interesting)

    by T.E.D. ( 34228 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @05:09AM (#49687755)

    "There's a rush you get when you go out on the field, lay everything on the line and physically dominate the player across from you. This is a feeling I'm (for lack of a better word) addicted to, and I'm hard-pressed to find anywhere else."

    This is your indication that you are talking with an adrenaline/endorphin junkie.

    I play futbol (soccer) defense, and can completely understand this. Its an otherwise thankless position. If you do it well pretty much nobody but your goalie notices, and if you mess up everyone hates on you. So why do it? Honestly, I believe I got addicted to the adrenaline/endorphin hit. I don't even feel right until I've had my first hard tackle. It is next to impossible to get that fix in real life, but a good physical confrontation will bring it right up. I once hadn't got there yet, and then a (clearly juicing) big forward knocked me to the ground while the ref wasn't looking. I got up laughing and thanking him. Not quite the reaction he was expecting.

    I don't know how many here have seen Clint Eastwood's Every Which Way but Loose, but the main character Philo clearly had this as well. It was a major plot point that he had to fight, and had an unusual thing where he got better the more he was hit. Classic Endorphin/Adrenaline junkie.

    I think it ought to go without saying that as a mathematician Urschel isn't going to get his body chemical "hit" in his daily life. I've certainly found that to be the case as a software engineer.

  • Dishonest headlines as usual (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    The Ravens are a professional football team. The majority of his income almost certainly comes from football, not math.
    He is therefore a footballier first and a mathmaticiary second, not the other way around.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by T.E.D. ( 34228 )
      Perhaps. The league minimum is about half a mil a year. Good money by any standard. However, that's only about 4x what an average math PhD can pull down in a year. Compare that with the fact that an NFL linesman career is going to be over in 10 years if you are really lucky, while a mathematician can work until either they drop or age-related dementia sets in, and it really isn't so cut-and-dried. At the absolute least, he's smart to be trying to do both so he isn't starting from base salary(/reputation) on

  • Chess boxing (Score:3)

    by Mal-2 ( 675116 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @06:01AM (#49687825) Homepage Journal

    I bet this guy will kick ass at chess boxing [wikipedia.org] when his NFL days are over.

  • Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) would be a lot less risk (Score:4, Informative)

    by Monoman ( 8745 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @06:02AM (#49687829) Homepage

    ... and it would pay less. I highly suggest it for everyone though.

    I started learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) about 6 years ago. One of the first things I noticed was that there seemed to be a higher percentage of technical/professional than I found in other athletic activities I had done in the past. Yes the UFC has made BJJ a bit trendy but it is more than that. BJJ is great for a smaller and weaker person because it effectively demonstrates technique over strength from day one.

    • ... and it would pay less. I highly suggest it for everyone though.

      I started learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) about 6 years ago. One of the first things I noticed was that there seemed to be a higher percentage of technical/professional than I found in other athletic activities I had done in the past. Yes the UFC has made BJJ a bit trendy but it is more than that. BJJ is great for a smaller and weaker person because it effectively demonstrates technique over strength from day one.

      ^^^ this. Pretty much almost every person I've seen in BJJ (or Judo) has a technical/professional job. Training is not cheap, and it requires a certain type of income to keep it up. It is also worth noting a significant number of UFC fighters wrestle in college.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rinikusu ( 28164 )

        Judo is pretty cheap. One can frequently find classes at the local YMCA for $10-20/month. BJJ, on the other hand, is very proud of what they offer. If you can find lessons for $100/month or less, good luck!

  • Does it mean that even clever people may need some virile exercise, or does it mean, as TFA suggests, that NFL players are all retarded?

  • First, a guard is possibly the least likely player on the field to get a concussion. Sure they hit hard every play, but it's almost more like wrestling than anything, and almost never the high speed impacts that result in concussion.

    Second, I think it's great for young men to hear this. We've spent pretty nearly the last 20 years identifying "male" behaviors as pathologies that need to be circumscribed, if not outright "corrected", and wonder why young men are checking out. There is a joy to physical hea

  • Doesn't surprise me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @08:13AM (#49688131)

    I know it's just an anecdote, but in my personal experience, at the higher levels of football (college and up: I played in college and have known several people that have moved on to the NFL) it takes a certain amount of intelligence to succeed, simply because the plays and the calls get more complicated. And while the stereotype of offensive linemen is that they are big and dumb, from what I have seen is that they actually tend to be smarter than other players. On my college team at least 2-3 out of our teams academic top 10 every year were offensive linemen, and a surprising number of our offensive linemen went on to graduate school, whether at our school or others. Of course, I may be slightly biased as I was an offensive lineman, I was one of those that went to grad school, and I was on my team's academic top 10 all 4 years.

    Another interesting observation I have made is that certain personalities or characteristics seem to congregate to certain positions. For example, if you were to walk through a college or NFL locker room, more often than not you can tell if a player is offense or defense based solely on the state of their locker: offensive players tend to have cleaner, more organized lockers while defensive players tend to have messier, jumbled lockers.

  • Not surprised (Score:3)

    by Trailer Trash ( 60756 ) on Thursday May 14, 2015 @08:26AM (#49688193) Homepage

    In my first year of college I had one math professor who was a former pro football player and another who was a former pro hockey player. Both were excellent professors.

  • ...he's the Incredible Hulk?

    When I go too long without physical contact I'm not a pleasant person to be around.

    We're making him angry. We wouldn't like him when he's angry.

  • The Big Bang Theory taught me that all smart people were pencil-necked geeks or had some obvious visual clue that they were intelligent. It is just not possible for someone to be athletic and intelligent.

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