The Myth of the Science and Engineering Shortage 392
walterbyrd (182728) writes in with this story that calls into question the conventional wisdom that there is a shortage of science and engineering workforce in the U.S. "Such claims are now well established as conventional wisdom. There is almost no debate in the mainstream. They echo from corporate CEO to corporate CEO, from lobbyist to lobbyist, from editorial writer to editorial writer. But what if what everyone knows is wrong? What if this conventional wisdom is just the same claims ricocheting in an echo chamber? The truth is that there is little credible evidence of the claimed widespread shortages in the U.S. science and engineering workforce."
Re:A myth indeed. (Score:5, Informative)
We are full on socialists, have been for many many years and the socialists in charge seek only to confiscate more and more of the wealth of the citizens.
You have no clue what it means to live in a socialist society. So stop putting completely inapprobriate labels everywhere just to appear alarmist. The U.S. is capitalist. Pure and simple. With a very small amount of socialist icing on top. I've grown up in a socialist state. To call the U.S. socialist is akin to calling snow black.
Re:Want to write a kernel ? (Score:5, Informative)
Rather difficult to say. In some countries, the term/title "Engineer" has a specific legal status and requirements, which this guy apparently doesn't meet.
Perhaps he's a "craftsman", but this whole issue is a ten-beer discussion.
Re:Want to write a kernel ? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:There's a shortage all right.. (Score:3, Informative)
I would phrase it slightly different: There is a shortage in willingness to pay.
Re:Want to write a kernel ? (Score:4, Informative)
That effect is because it takes so long to get to the front of any field, which I suspect you know. However, each field seems to do its damnist to exclude members of other fields or prevent one subfield from influencing another. Academia promotes this sort of fraternal organization and pisses on any cross-disciplinary researchers. In most companies, however, one is almost required to be cross-disciplinary at PhD level. I do not mean to imply that academic should be training PhDs for industry, but they cannot all get tenured at some university. So in the looking out for the well-fare of their graduates, they should be promoting cross-disciplinary research.
Re:A myth indeed. (Score:3, Informative)
That's not socialism. 80% state ownership, heck if you have that then you might as well have 100% ownership, wich as we all know is full on communism.
Nope, socialism means the state owns the means of production, communism means the state has vanished and the people own the means of production. Socialism is a transitory phase towards communism.
What Americans call "socialism" is actually the welfare state built by "social democrats" which may employ similar methods as socialism does but which has a completely different goal - it's goal is to maintain a capitalist economy and soften it a bit to make it more bearable. It is a concept that you Americans constructed to immunize Western and Northern Europe against actual socialism.
Re:A myth indeed. (Score:4, Informative)
And no, you don't still have a clue. You come across like the american jews in the 1930ies and 1940ies, who told their European brethren who could barely flee: "we also had hard times." Yes, there are regulations in the U.S. and there are taxes. That doesn't make the U.S. in any way socialist. The municipal appartement administration has no comparable counterpart in the U.S.. The owner of a house under the municipal administration can't enter any contracts anymore. Not even necessary repairs. He can apply for repairs at the office, but the administration will determine the time, allocate the money, will hire the craftsmen (or send their own), and oversee the execution.
Re:Want to write a kernel ? (Score:3, Informative)
You can be really good at what you do, be very well paid and not be an engineer, but if you call yourself an engineer, or just let it be thought you are one you may one day get a visit from the said association/order...
Simple test: can you sign off on drawings or specifications? No? You're not an engineer. End of story.
This is not conventional wisdom (Score:5, Informative)
This is political wisecrackery with no legitimate basis to back it up. Congress has been informed for over seven years that this is an untruth. (Here's an article in Businessweek [businessweek.com]from all the way back in 2007 citing a study done by the Urban Institute [urban.org] debunking this myth.
This information has been reported to Congress on both the floor and in committee hearings. (Sorry, at one point, I had an old printout of one report supporting this statement. I can't seem to locate it, either in paper form nor on Google.) Congressional leaders willingly refuse to accept this truth, simply because there is more to gain politically by not accepting it. (Huge amounts of money are circulated by lobbyists in support of political agendas influenced by this...opening up more H1B visas, for example.)
Re:A myth indeed. (Score:2, Informative)
Arguably, social security @ 15% and Medicare, most states add in sales taxes @ 6%, local property taxes, fuel taxes; no 60% isn't that far fetched.
Re:A myth indeed. (Score:5, Informative)
Repeat after me: No private ownership or private control of production means. As long as most of the production means ownership and control is private, you simply don't have Socialism. You can call me Euroweenie or Hans or whatever, but you still are wrong. Swearwords don't change that.
Choose a new swearword for the situation you don't like in the U.S. or be prepared to further be called for misunderstanding and misusing the word Socialism.
Re:anonymous coward (Score:3, Informative)
You mean "Thanks Obama and Bush and Clinton and Bush and Reagan!"
clarify Professional Engineer licensing (Score:5, Informative)
A few misconceptions in the above: (speaking for California, here, where I'm licensed)
1) a degree is not required; 6 years experience with reference letters from other Engineers is. Some fraction of college can serve as, I think, 2 years of the 6, if it's the right courses, etc.
1a) passing a pair of day long tests is required: Fundamentals of Engineering (formerly EIT), typically before you start working; and the actual PE exam, which is field specific (e.g. Civils take an exam on concrete and steel; Electricals look at EM fields, control loops, and logic design, etc.), and which you take after doing your 6 years.
2) It's not a professional association/order (although such do exist: IEEE, CSPE, etc.): it's a license issued by the state (Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors, in California; similar in other states), just like Bar Licenses, MD licenses, etc. The BPELS can take your license away if you seriously screw up. There's a delightful newsletter that comes out with all sorts of examples of struck-off Engineers which make you ask "What were they thinking that this would be ok to do".
3) PE "wet stamp" is really only required for a limited set of things: building plans is the best example. The vast majority of engineers in California toil under what is called the "industrial exemption": you're not personally liable for stuff, the company is. Product design, for example, is usually under the exemption.
4) There are laws about the use of the title Engineer in certain contexts. I can put up a sign advertising myself as an Engineer (because I have a license). Someone without a license cannot, and must call them self a "consultant" or some such. There's subtlety too, in some states (e.g. California) about "title" and "practice". The former is using the title Engineer (e.g. in advertising) and the latter is about doing engineering (e.g. designing buildings). Some kinds of engineers (Civil, Mechanical, Electrical) are actual practice areas: as an Electrical branch PE, I can't do Civil engineering work. Some kinds are just titles: Petroleum Engineer or Traffic Engineer, and are essentially flavors of one of the "big 3".
There's also rules about whether one can practice engineering in another state, and that is, of course, state by state dependent, and whether one has to get licensed there (with or without a test, etc.; but almost always involving paying a fee).
Re:Want to write a kernel ? (Score:4, Informative)
My father had no college but was a certified Master electrician and plumber, he did need a certain amount of experience and had to take multiple exams. After he was unable to physically do the job every day they still kept him as foreman until he retired since it meant the company was not required to pay the state for some permits and they didn't need to pay for the state to have a certified master inspect the job.
In order to become any kind of craftsman you usually have to go through some type of apprenticeship with exams and at the end be certified by some authority state or otherwise.