Explorer Plans Hunt For Genghis Khan's Long-Lost Tomb 243
Velcroman1 writes "The tomb of brutal Mongolian emperor Genghis Khan — the one who created the world's most powerful empire by raiding and invading across Eurasia, not Kirk's nemesis — is a lost treasure archaeologists have sought for years. And one man thinks he knows where it is. Last fall Alan Nichols, the president of The Explorers Club, mapped out possible locations for the tomb of Khan (also known as Chinnggis Qa'an). His hypothesis: Khan's tomb is located in the Liupan Mountains in Northern China, where the emperor who was born in 1162 and is said to have perished from an arrow wound in August 1227. Next fall, Nichols plans the next phase of his research: pinpointing Khan's exact resting place. 'Ghengis Khan's tomb is my obsession,' Nichols, a noted authority on the emperor, said recently. 'I couldn't stop thinking about it. But I'm not happy just reading about it, or knowing about it. I need to have my feet on it.'"
This is not the tomb you seek! (Score:4, Funny)
*gestures*
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Wrong Harrison Ford franchise
Considering the size of his empire, I'm surprised there hasn't been an Indiana Jones (let's say a fourth movie, since the third was really good) about preventing the Nazis from finding it.
Re:This is not the tomb you seek! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is not the tomb you seek! (Score:5, Interesting)
Dunno - given the sheer number of cultures that the Mongols absorbed, there's likely something in there somewhere (even Orthodox or Nestorian if you want to stay Christian about the artifact in question.)
As a bonus, instead of Nazis**, he could hunt it down before the Japanese Army gets it (given that they started invading China and Mongolia as early as the mid-1930s), or if you want to make minds go 'splodey, get it before the Red Army does, and have it be the (way) earliest bit of Cold War action.
** incidentally, the Nazis did launch a real-world expedition into Tibet and roundabouts looking for the whole racial origin thing, so they'd work as bad guys too, depending on what specific region in Asia we're talking about (though Khan's tomb would likely no longer be of much relevance, methinks.)
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As a bonus, instead of Nazis**, he could hunt it down before the Japanese Army gets it (given that they started invading China and Mongolia as early as the mid-1930s), or if you want to make minds go 'splodey, get it before the Red Army does, and have it be the (way) earliest bit of Cold War action.
Ooh, and Doolitle's raid on Japan, while publicly described as a morale-booster for post Pearl Harbor America and a propaganda tool in Japan, was actually designed to distract the Japanese military from pursuit of the Khan artifacts!
You could even say the reason the bomber crews ditched in China wasn't really about the inability to land bombers on a carrier at all... it was to tie up those Japanese ground troops who ended up hunting the Americans.
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FTFY.
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after all these years (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:after all these years (Score:5, Insightful)
Phillip of Macedon's tomb was found and identified. Science can do amazing things.
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http://archive.archaeology.org/online/features/macedon/
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Thanks for the update; since determined it wasn't Phillip after all.
Re:after all these years (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:after all these years (Score:5, Interesting)
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I don't know the first emperor of china managed to be buried with his army and that is still around.
Hiding under a mountain means that most people will walk all over it and not see it which prevents "most" tomb raiders (just not the hot chick, skin tight clothes wearing variety)
Re:after all these years (Score:5, Funny)
If the remains are genetically related to half of Eurasia, it's the real Genghis.
Re:after all these years (Score:4, Informative)
We may not be able to identify his tomb, but sure as heck we can identify his ancestors [radiolab.org]! It so happens that this guy had about half a thousand children that have descendants that survive today. Rape and pillage he did, allrighty. There's more than ten million of those descendants alive today, by the way. Genetics for the win, I say.
Joke all you want (Score:5, Insightful)
Joke all you want, but according to a Darwinian fitness perspective he was one of the most successful humans to have ever lived.
Re:Joke all you want (Score:5, Funny)
I used to be a Darwinian champion like you,
Then I took an arrow in the knee.
-- Chinnggis Qa'an
Re:after all these years (Score:5, Informative)
Khan has a unique genetic marker that could be identified in a DNA test: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/science/a-prolific-genghis-khan-it-seems-helped-people-the-world.html [nytimes.com]
That would at least narrow him down to his family, if found.
I always thought, though, that Genghis chose a "true" Mongol's burial: dragged on a pallet up a mountain, left where his body slid off the pallet and then fair game for all the critters of the wild to pick clean...
Re:after all these years (Score:4, Interesting)
Ghengis was known for breaking many Mongol social customs which is one of the reasons he was so successful. The legend goes that in an effort to hide the tomb all of the workers were executed and then the soldiers familiar with the area were killed as well....
Re:after all these years (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:after all these years (Score:4, Interesting)
Genghis Khan didn't break many social customs. He was a product of his culture, just more successful than others. He wasn't the first to create a Mongol confederation and attempt to take over the known world, his uncle had done the same thing.
The hidden tomb idea is a classic Chinese move (literally). Probably other cultures as well. But not a Mongol custom, which didn't have a large social structure of ditch diggers. He theoretically may have done it, but it seems likely it was just conflated with all the Chinese emperors who did the same thing.
Mongols wouldn't have done a sky burial, where the body is consumed by animals. That's a move of (modern) Tibetan Buddhism, and Genghis Khan was not a Tibetan Buddhist.
It is known that his tribe buried people in unmarked graves, and that this is what Genghis Khan asked for. It's likely what happened to him.
The idea that Genghis Khan came to power because he was the first Mongol not afraid of thunderstorms is infantile.
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Will it be possible to identify his tomb after all these years?
It's the one with the headstone engraved with "Kahn, G."
Duh.
I couldn't stop thinking about it. (Score:2)
"But I'm not happy just reading about it, or knowing about it. I need to have my feet on it.'"
Sounds liike somebody needs to double up on their meds.
Better Living Through Chemistry
Will the Host Country Cooperate? (Score:2)
Obligatory... (Score:2)
http://www.khaaan.com/ [khaaan.com]
(Dopey Stupid slashdot filter kept blocking me from just typing it out... "too many caps makes it look like you're yelling" O'RLY?!)
" I need to have my feet on it."..... (Score:2)
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But have ye found the tapestries?!
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I'm not saying it was aliens... ...but it was totally aliens.
Damnit Spielberg, This isn't the History Channel!
Khan the great lover (Score:2)
Random fact, Khan has 16 million descendants [nationalgeographic.com].
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He lived well.
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Actually he didn't need that... as the chief of a huge empire, many girls/women/families wanted to be connect to him, specially with kids, in hope to increase their power or guarantee the safety of their bloodlines
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I used to be an adventurer like you (Score:3)
until I took an arrow to the chest. (MongoliaRim)
Ghengis Khan, origin of the meme. (Score:2)
Marco Polo writes of Chingis-khan's death:
But at the end of those six years he went against a certain castle that was called CAAJU, and there he was shot with an arrow in the knee, so that he died of his wound. A great pity it was, for he was a valiant man and a wise.
—Marco Polo, The Travels of Marco Polo, Book 1, Chapter 50
Not the cricketer either, then? (Score:2)
Thanks for pointing that out.
I thought it was already found (Score:2)
I'm certain the discovery was chronicled in the book "Treasure Of Khan" where Dirk Pitt ... oh wait ;)
The Rocking Son of Dschinghis Khan (Score:2)
He could try asking the Rocking Son of Dschinghis Khan [youtube.com].
The Explorers Club, I had no idea (Score:3)
Founded in New York City in 1904, The Explorers Club promotes the scientific exploration of land, sea, air, and space by supporting research and education in the physical, natural and biological sciences. The Club’s members have been responsible for an illustrious series of famous firsts: First to the North Pole, first to the South Pole, first to the summit of Mount Everest, first to the deepest point in the ocean, first to the surface of the moon—all accomplished by our members.
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Wait a minute. They beat Neil Armstrong to the Moon?? Why didn't they tell anyone about that? They could have made a fortune off the merchandising rights, not to mention increased memberships.
I guess they're better explorers than businessmen.
Please, NO, NO, NO! (Score:3)
That guy is a rich retired lawyer, not an archeologist or historian. See his profile at
http://www.explorers.org/index.php/about/explorers_club_president
There are zero indications in the linked article that they plan to include any professionals on their expedition, and in his portrait there is no record that he has ever teamed up with such on previous endeavors. Looting or just damaging a tomb of this importance by amateurs, should it be found, would be an enormous cultural loss. A painstaking archeological dig would probably take 20 years and proceed with extreme caution. These guys do not look like they have the patience - to me they certainly look like they would prefer instant gratification and fame by brandishing a few choice artefacts from the tomb if they can find it.
Fox News "noted authority" (Score:5, Interesting)
Just because someone at Fox News put "Noted Authority" on the Chiron under a TV guest doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.
I actually did a fair bit of research myself into this a few months back, to answer a question on History.SE [stackexchange.com]. There is indeed a romantic notion of there being some undiscovered tomb with untold wealth in it. Then there's the reality:
Depositing the corpse in the steppe was meant to sacrifice it to predatory animals. According to Mongolians this is the last virtous act a person can carry out. This idea is much older than Lamaism and exhibits a really strong shamanistic element of spiritual thought.
Re:Fox News "noted authority" (Score:5, Interesting)
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That, and his followers may have decided that since he was such an important personage, that having random crows nibble him to nothingness wasn't all that great of an idea. Some faction of his followers had to take the reigns of command and they may have felt that having an interred burial ground more advantageous.
Re:Fox News "noted authority" (Score:4, Interesting)
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there may be as yet undiscovered primary sources (or even contemporary secondary sources)
Actually, that would be awesome. Seriously. I would love to see that, even it if contradicted everything I said. Heck, particularly if it contradicted everything I said. When you study history, nothing is more wonderful than a new trove of information that completely changes our view of things.
However, right now there are no such sources, and more importantly, this "expert" isn't looking to find them. He's just a guy who's an expert on the legends. His efforts are really less interesting than a guy looking
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Re:Fox News "noted authority" (Score:5, Funny)
Just because someone at Fox News put "Noted Authority" on the Chiron under a TV guest doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.
That's just wrong, Fox doesn't lie. Just look at this paragraph:
Nichols now believes the Luipan Mountains that rise above the grasslands are the final resting place of the famed emperor, a short flight north of Hong Kong, near the Yellow River, off the coast of the Pacific Ocean.
That's completely accurate. The site is only about 1,000 miles north of Hong Kong, which is about the same as the short flight from Miami to New York. And it's only about 575 miles from the Pacific Ocean, which is definitely "off the coast" of it. It's not "on the coast", right? So it must be off the coast.
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Phoenix is only 165 miles from Rocky Point, Mexico. That means that Phoenix is over 3 times closer to the Pacific than this site. Phoenix, of course, is noted for being off the coast of the Pacific.
Star Trek II re-subtitled... (Score:2)
So now Kirk yells, "Qa'aa'aa'aa'aa'aa'aa'aa'aa'aa'aa'an!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Throw a few dramatic pauses in there and you have it!
Qa'an (Score:2)
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For the same reason there's one in Hawai'i.
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One theory (Score:2)
One theory is that the abominable snowman is Genghis Khan. They have never been seen together ever. Genghis Khan is immortal but to ensure his survival, he chooses to hide from humans including paparazzi. How did the creature become abominable anyway One is not born like that; it takes hard work.
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Fun fact: While touring the snowcapped mountains of Asia, Ghengis Khan sprang forth fully formed from Chuck Norris's midriff; He was indeed born the abdominal snowman.
Hmm... (Score:2)
Let me get this straight. His hypothesis is that Khan is buried somewhere in the geographic region in which he died? And his next "phase" is just to pinpoint the location?
This is a great way to solve problems! I'd like to hypothesize that P=NP can be proven using clever mathematical methods. I plan to do this next fall. My next phase is to pinpoint which mathematical methods to use.
Kublai Khan (Score:2)
'I couldn't stop thinking about it. But I'm not happy just reading about it, or knowing about it. I need to have my feet on it.'
I'd much rather stand within the Pleasure Dome / Decreed by Kubla Khan / To taste anew the fruits of life / The last immortal man...
As if King Tut's curse wasn't enough (Score:2)
Wait until they wake up The Great Khan's Mommie Werewolf Vampire Army.
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>Virtually all historians, whether Christian, atheist or of some other religion, hold that a man Jesus existed, even if his biography is just so much myth accreted around the historical figure.
All the honest ones are clear that there is no direct evidence and many of the myths clearly relate to different people at different times. There have been many people names Jesus. With high probability, there has never been magic Jesus, born of a virgin, 2000 years ago, who could perform miracles.
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And to think, this imaginary person will have a greater effect on Mankind than you'll ever have. That is the true power of magic!
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Actually it is the response of people to other people that has had a great effect.
At least I can claim to have done less damage. Yet.
This is not as simple (Score:4, Insightful)
The ultimate honesty, is to admit in this specigfic case, that we do not know, but most probably a human at the origin of all the myth existed. Anybody telling you there is a "consensus" of historian, really exagerate the case here. There are many historical figure older than jesus for which we have a LOT of physical and written evidence. For jesus ? Nothing practically beyond the bible. Even Josephus is recognized as dubious, most probably a fraud. And nobody else reported the existence of the guy. That said carrier and other "full" mythicist haven't shown anything reliable in the academic arena (and no a book do not count --- peer review do).
Draw you own conclusion. Me after reading a lot of the litterature I am split 60/50. 60% chance he existed, 40% chance it was either a composite (more than 1 persons) or an elaborate myth.
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There had to have been at least one - if I recall 'Jesus' was Aramaic for 'Joe' or some such.
Which makes sense if you are going to invent a religion where the whole point is that the hero is an average Joe...
Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:5, Funny)
>Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
Jesus is everywhere, tending gardens across the United States. Cash only.
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Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
That's the difference.
Repeating a fallacy often does not make it true.
Very few reputable scholar who have no axe to grind dispute that there was a historical Jesus figure.
If I had a dime for every time I saw the same thing stated verbatim, I would be a very rich man.
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That's right, Jesus was his own disciple.
Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:4, Informative)
Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
There is strong evidence [wikipedia.org] that Jesus existed. He may not have been divine, but he was almost certainly a real person.
Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:4, Insightful)
The Wikipedia page talks plenty about how convinced scholars are (who have a vested interest in that answer) but doesn't actually cite any evidence. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
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I'm not sure which logical fallacy that one falls into. Maybe we need a new one.
The fallacy of the missing documentation.
It could work for software too.
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There are too many gaps in the historical record for him to be made up
ah, the old "god of the gaps argument";
oh, wait, hang on...
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Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:5, Informative)
The guy cited the wrong source. Here is a better one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_Historicity_of_Jesus [wikipedia.org]
Basically what it boils down to is that there are multiple independent sources attesting to his existence.
See Q Source and the Gospel of Mark. Or the Gospel of Thomas. Those are the 2 big ones I can think of. I will grant you that they were oral traditions before being written traditions. I will grant you that there are differences and contradictions between the various sources. But the differences are consistent with the way that oral history spreads.
Correction (Score:2)
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Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let’s consider you point. What is your Epistemology in this situation?
Do you reject evolution? It’s got massive holes. There are bits that don’t (yet) make sense. Yet I still believe it because of the strong evidence. The holes take some extrapolation to move from point to point, but the logic to do so is consistent.
Or, let’s choose an example more on point. Should I disbelieve in Socrates? Like Jesus no primary source material exists. None of his writings exist. Should I take the position that he was just the figment of somebody’s imagination?
Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:5, Interesting)
The Wikipedia page talks plenty about how convinced scholars are (who have a vested interest in that answer) but doesn't actually cite any evidence
You need to improve your reading comprehension skills. The passage cites a reference to Roman documents that mention the crucifixion of Jesus. What are you expecting? A giant Iridium plated monument that says "Jesus Was Here"? Jesus had a tremendous influence on future generations, but very, very little on his own generation. So there is little contemporaneous evidence, just like there is little direct evidence that 99.99% of any other specific first century individuals existed. But Christianity began to take off when there were still people alive that would have had a memory of him, and there were plenty of opponents of what, at the time, was an extremist cult. Yet none of them denied that he had lived.
There is strong, but not conclusive, evidence that he was a real person. There is no evidence that his existence was fabricated. Many of his disciples were tortured and crucified, yet they refused to denounce him. Why would they do that, for something that (in your opinion) they had made up?
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It cites Roman documents written well after it supposedly happened and after the myth of Jesus became fairly popular.
Jesus's crucifixion was stated as a known fact by a Roman senator that would have had access to source documents. Is that absolute mathematical proof that Jesus existed? Of course not. But it is certainly strong evidence.
There is no evidence that his existence was fabricated.
This is a flat out lie. There is ample evidence that Jesus (and of course the Christian God) are modeled after various ancient mythologies.
Look, not one here is claiming that there is "strong evidence" that Jesus was divine. Just that he was an actual person. Mormonism was based on preexisting Christian beliefs. That doesn't mean that Joseph Smith wasn't a real person.
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You know, it's always hard to prove things, just by accounting other people stories. To really prove something you have to show evidences!
Now prove that Genghis Kahn existed!!! It's not easy, and remember that he is +1000 years more recent.
Lets do the opposite... prove that Hercules/ Héracles didn't exist.
when all you have are stories, it's very hard to prove anything. Yes, you can prove some events, but what come first, the event or the story/person?
by the way, do you really exist? are you sure!! prov
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There is no contemporaneous documentation of the existence of Jesus, the closest thing is Josephus, writing about his disciples seventy years later. On the other hand, there is abundant documentation of Genghis Khan from people who had met him personally and official documents from the time of his rule. Cities he built and trading posts he had established exist to this day.
Re:What about Jesus's ? (Score:4, Funny)
Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
There is strong evidence [wikipedia.org] that Jesus existed. He may not have been divine, but he was almost certainly a real person.
Imagine if Jesus had hooked Genghis up with his breakthrough water-walking technology. Khan could have taken over the entire world. 100% of the earth's population would be related to him, rather than 10% of Asia or whatever it is. You couldn't ask a girl out without then discovering she's some distant relative. Earth would become Planet Redneck.
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That's the way it is.
Most historians have more important things to deal with, like, for example: history.
There is a vanishingly small proportion of historians who run around arguing about the evidence for the New Testament Jesus, and they write an awful lot about very weak secondary sources.
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Jesus was a hugely important figure in history, though barely so in his lifetime, and many people who were alive when he was purported to be have written about him. There's as much evidence that he existed as, say, Socrates. It's as conclusive as historical evidence ever is, when all you ever have to go on is contemporary writing.
When you have several people arguing about public speeches the guy made, and none of his detractors claiming he's fictional (you'd think people arguing against his positions would
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How to remember the order of the planets:
[M]ary's
[V]irgin
[E]xcuse
[M]ade
[J]oseph
[S]uspect
[U]pstairs
[N]eighbour
Re:What about the US empire? (Score:4, Informative)
LOL, Genghis Khan has way more up his sleeve than you give him credit for. Show me a U.S. president that had about a thousand 1st-generation descendants. 800 years later - today - Genghis has about 15 million descendants. This is based on hard science genetic testing, not historic record, by the way. An average male person living 800 years ago has a bit above 500 descendants living today.
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Is this why all those asians look the same?
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Do you consider power to a absolute or relative measure? If absolute one might be able to make the argument that Luxemburg was more power.
If we are talking about relative, we are talking about one small tribe that was able to conquer Russia, China, raid Poland at will, etc. Nobody ever even came close at being able to match Khan’s army.
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Most expensive is not something to brag about.
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Re:What about the US empire? (Score:5, Informative)
While the thrust of the military power of the British empire is truly not what it was, he is accurate in saying that "the sun never sets". :-)
Nobody really refers to it as an "empire" anymore, but in addition to Britain and Northern Ireland, the U.K. still controls territories including "Gibraltar, Bermuda, numerous Caribbean islands, Ascension, St. Helena, Tristan da Cunha, the Falkland Islands, and South Georgia." Some have argued that the sun finally set over the empire after the handover of Hong Kong in 1997. But some argue this view ignores two tiny but crucial territories which bridge the gab: the Pitcairn Islands in the South Pacific and the British Indian Ocean Territory -- also known as the Chagos Islands, where Britain and the United States maintain a joint military facility at Diego Garcia. The question is "on midwinter's day in the southern hemisphere, does the sun set over Pitcairn before it rises over Diego Garcia?"
Here's what Peter Hammond's calculations found:
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[The] results allow for the refraction of the sun's rays when it is close to the horizon. They indicate that, on 21st June, the sun rises over Diego Garcia at 01:22 hrs GMT, more than half an hour before it sets over Pitcairn at 01:59 hrs GMT.
Thanks to Diego Garcia (uninhabited except temporarily by various U.K. and U.S. military personnel) and to Pitcairn (population now about 50), the British Empire appears safe from sunsets for the time being.
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Empire and Commonwealth are not the same
...today.
I'm sure Anonymous Coward was referring to the British Empire at its height, in the early Twentieth Century.
Same as the US meant the US empire before it started its journey of self-destruction after September 11th
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Well, maybe they will when they can ferry their own astronauts up to the ISS again...
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No, no, to revive him... let him kill all those politics!!! Peace at last!!
If you agree to be conquered by him, Genghis Khan were a very good ruler, usually much better than the one they removed... just don't try to resist him or disobey to what was agreed, as he most likely would totally destroy everyone (and everything) that you one day touched, if not all your country, just to be sure!!
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Pretty much the rest of it comes down to creative license in the tradition of pulp fiction which the series does a fantastic job of.