Scientist Seeks Investment For "Alcohol Substitute" 328
First time accepted submitter MalachiK writes "A senior academic and former UK government drugs adviser reckons that pretty soon it'll be possible to enjoy the fun of being drunk without having to suffer the negative effects of alcohol. In a proposal reminiscent of Star Trek's synthehol, Professor David Nut has identified a number of molecules that he claims offer experiences that are subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication. Apparently a major advantage of using these more selectively psychoactive drugs is that the effects can be quickly reversed. It's not all good news though as Professor Nut seems to think that the drinks industry is using its financial and political clout to stop this sort of research being undertaken."
You had me at ... (Score:5, Funny)
Professor Nut
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The Nut family must be awesome to meet...
Re:You had me at ... (Score:5, Funny)
The Nut son married a Sachs girl and they now have a bunch of little ones running around with a wonderfully hyphenated last name.
Re:You had me at ... (Score:5, Informative)
Professor David Nutt, the government's chief drug adviser, has been sacked a day after claiming that ecstasy and LSD were less dangerous than alcohol.
His claims are factual but go against official-opinion-on-the-matter(tm)
Re:You had me at ... (Score:5, Insightful)
When a government scientist gets sacked for stating an obvious fact you know things are fucked.
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If I can't brew it in my bath tub it ain't 'MERICAN enough fer me!
I also brew it in three sheds. Of course I only brew 200 gallons a year for personal consumption.
However if I'm forced to I can work with a sleezy science teacher and cook up some pseudo-cannibanoids. We'll dye the powder blue.
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200 gallons of LSD?! That's probably enough to trip the entire planet, let alone you personal use...
Generally liquid LSD varies in actual LSD content, but let's call it "one drop contains 100mcg", which is a common expectation.
100mcg is considered a typical dose of LSD for anyone to experience a trip (some people will trip on less; some require a little more. Also generally, for more experienced users or people wishing to have a 'heavy trip' for self-discovery or other such purposes, much higher doses are used; but we'll go with just 'experiencing a trip' for the purposes of calculation and so 100mcg is
Not all good (Score:5, Insightful)
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Then again, there will be no need to 'curb your drinking' when you can control the effects instead of the effects controlling you.
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Then again, there will be no need to 'curb your drinking' when you can control the effects instead of the effects controlling you.
The problem depicted is not that of hangovers, but rather that of excessive drinking leading to a severe lapse of judgment and restraint. This seems like a smart consideration to make.
I have seen drunks with little regard for their own or other's safety, and I would prefer if such behaviour stayed rare and infrequent. We already have problems with drug addicts behaving in undesireable ways, so let's take a moment to ponder if we want more alcoholics that behave in a similar manner.
Also, it should come with
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What you said!
Some things simply should not be produced, or studied beyond a certain point for that matter, because they harm society much more than they help society. If a guy develops a cure to heal you of an alcohol addition and provides you a nice fat dose of daily PCP have they helped, harmed, or have things stayed the same?
Historically drugs have been used by people in power as a method of control. Simply teaching people about that aspect is not enough to cure the abuse of substances, but it's a sta
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Wait a minute. Nobody said that abuse will not kill you. You just won't have a hangover.
Re:Not all good (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the things that cause people to curb their drinking is that morning after hangover
No.
If you're an alcoholic, the hangover is just a reason to start drinking early, not a deterrent. No hangover? I'll drink to that!
If you're not, then you don't really need to "curb" it, and the memories of the dipshit things you did will be just as much of a deterrent. In fact, since you'll have a clear head and fully remember all your antics from the night before, the lack of hangover would actually increase the chances you'd think twice before having that last six shots of Tequila.
As for the article, we already have alternates to booze and it's called Marijuana. But because it's not physically addictive and doesn't cause horrible health effects, that means it has an even higher potential for abuse and is thus even more "addictive". Legally speaking, that is. I have a feeling that anything this guy comes up with is going to end up in the same boat. Either it'll have some nasty side effects (like so-called 'bath salts') or it'll be "too good" to allow people to use.
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we already have alternates to booze and it's called Marijuana. But because it's not physically addictive and doesn't cause horrible health effects
Warning to reader: your milage may vary depending on where you live [drugwarrant.com]
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No, there are certain people (mostly Asian) that have a genetic mutation involving how Ethanol Metabolizes that causes their hangovers to come on quicker and stronger. It's been proven that these people have significantly lower rates of alcoholism. It's been proposed that this common genetic mutation among Asians is a contributing factor to eastern societies relatively low rate of alcohol consumption.
Re:Not all good (Score:5, Informative)
No, there are certain people (mostly Asian) that have a genetic mutation involving how Ethanol Metabolizes that causes their hangovers to come on quicker and stronger. It's been proven that these people have significantly lower rates of alcoholism. It's been proposed that this common genetic mutation among Asians is a contributing factor to eastern societies relatively low rate of alcohol consumption.
Spoken like a man that has only studied East Asia in books and journal articles, having never been there. They drink like fish and are stone alcoholics, too. Not sure where you're getting your information, but it's not from reality. Lying to save face is also extraordinarily common. Just look at Fukushima!
Re:Not all good (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not all good (Score:4, Interesting)
enlightenment (Score:3, Interesting)
I now understand a shitload of anime that never made sense with regards to this until now, thank you.
I could never understand why they used red face to mean tipsy, I was like "why would even an uptight character be embarassed to be drunk, thats the one time they can let loose and won't give a fuck what other people think until the next day" because in real life none of my friends get red faced when they get shit faced.
Granted I will look at the ones with asian backrounds more closely now, assuming I'm actua
Re:Not all good (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, your post is factually incorrect. The common mutation to the pathway is with ALDH2 (aldehyde dehydrogenase), the *second* step of the process.
What happens is ethanol is broken down into acetaldehyde by alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH), and then the aldehyde into acetic acid by ALDH2. When ALDH2 is not effective, aldehyde (a toxin) builds up in the bloodstream and causes flushing, nausea, headaches, etc. And it's been traced down to a single amino acid substitution in ALDH2 with partially dominant expression.
One interesting anecdote I've seen from this is the use of certain drugs (an antihistamine, I think?) as off-label ALH inhibitors - basically to slow the pathway down and reduce buildup of acetaldehyde. In fact, an anesthesiologist friend was giving it to all of the Asian guys at the last bachelor party I attended :)
And do the slightest research into it and you will see the OP was correct - one study showed something like 40-50% of Japanese had ALDH2 deficiency as a whole, but less than 5% of Japanese alcoholics had it. If you almost immediately got flushed and sick when you drank you'd obviously be more likely to avoid it in general...
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It's been proposed that this common genetic mutation among Asians is a contributing factor to eastern societies relatively low rate of alcohol consumption.
Have you never been to Japan? Going out after working late and getting shit-faced drunk before showing up for work again early the next morning (hopefully sober) is a long standing tradition of the typical Japanese salaryman. In fact, doing business in Japan without engaging in social drinking would be practically impossible.
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"and is thus even more "addictive"
No, it isn't even comparably addictive. Words mean things and "higher potential for abuse" doesn't mean "addictive".
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One of the things that cause people to curb their drinking is that morning after hangover
No.
If you're an alcoholic,
I think the GPs point was, "if you are not alcoholic". You need to drink quite a lot before you are alcoholic and hangover really does stop, very effectively, your drinking. It is not enough to prevent you from becoming an alcoholic, but it is one deterrent.
Re:Not all good (Score:5, Insightful)
Psychological addiction is all in your head. You can get addicted to absolutely anything (including non-chemical things like gambling), and you can wake up one morning and quit cold turkey. The real danger from alcohol is the physical addiction. Alcohol is one of the few drugs that can be life threatening if a serious alcoholic suddenly can't get any. As long as the replacement drug is not physically addictive, then it is a big improvement.
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you can wake up one morning and quit cold turkey without any physiological effects.
FTFY.
There are psychological effects to quitting psychological addictions cold turkey. In fact, some of these can become severe enough to eventually manifest as physical symptoms.
As the practice of hypnotism has shown, the subconscious is very, very powerful and not to be so casually treated the way you do here.
Re:Not all good (Score:4, Insightful)
You do understand that alcohol withdrawal can kill you right? It's phyxical effects are more dangerous than heroin withdrawal. Not that psychological addiction should be scoffed at but alcohol addicicion is no small matter.
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Physiological addiction in most cases can be beaten by a short stay in an inpatient rehab center. Success rates are very high. But the real danger and the real long term worry is the psychological element of the addiction. It's what makes addictions so hard to beat, the day in day out avoidance of the addictive chemical/behavior (even after what you consider the "real danger" period is past). Note that psychological addiction is very much related to genetics and background, so only a limited percentage
Chemical basis for gambling addiction (Score:5, Informative)
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Psychological addiction is all in your head.
So is PTSD, schizophrenia, and delusions of grandeur. All of those are no big deal right?
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There's an easy solution to that, just stay drunk.
Re:Not all good (Score:5, Insightful)
That is absolutely so. I haven't been drunk since shortly after college and it's because I hate how it makes me feel the next morning.
I don't know about the rest of the comment though. I don't quite understand why people feel that intoxicants are inherently bad. I don't use them, but I don't share the moral objection to them.
If someone can use an intoxicant and still manage their life in a way that is satisfactory to them, I don't believe that society needs to place artificial strictures on intoxicating substances.
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I know that recreational drugs don't necessarily mean you're going to go on this slippery slope and end up drugged to hell, but it's a possibility and it needs to be kept in mind. I'd be much more supportive of preventativ
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I wonder how much of the "ending up in the hospital" part of drug abuse comes from the way society demonizes intoxicants. If you think of the really destructive drugs, like meth or crack, you'll find that most people start out going for these substances because there aren't better substances available to them. There's a lot of data showing that someone can use heroin daily and still be a productive, safe member of society. The problems come from forcing them into back alleys to buy their drug and keepi
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I don't quite understand why people feel that intoxicants are inherently bad. I don't use them, but I don't share the moral objection to them.
There are many people with a strong streak of Calvinism in their makeup. Anything that is pleasurable is immediately considered evil.
It crops up in so many places. The temperance movement was one. The Comstock laws are another. The Harrison act, and the war on drugs is yet another.
Even in more legal circles we see a lot of hate toward e-cigarettes. No particular health hazards, no second had smoke, allows ex smokers to improve their health.
But it really pisses off three groups; those who have been t
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You say that as if it were a bad thing.
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There are MMORPG players so into it they forget to eat, and actually die.
Not actually true. It takes weeks to months to die from food deprivation, and at least 3-5 days to die from lack of water... and it doesn't matter how "into" it you are... water deprivation is a powerful need that no addiction can get in the way of. What they die from is lack of sleep and pre-existing medical conditions that result in high blood pressure, blood clots, and similar. They die from systemic shock -- stress to their bodies. And their health is almost invariably already suspect.
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You're hitting some unrelated topics. "Binge drinking" is not addiction. It's stupid behavior. I'm not sure I want society to prevent stupid behavior by putting strictures on substances that most people use without being stupid about it.
Hold on a minute. I'm pretty sure you're making a big assumption there. What is "stronger"? Do you mean, "better able to work for a living"? Or do you mean, "more likely to have successful family lives"? Or do you mean, "
Re:Not all good (Score:5, Insightful)
This begs the question: If a drug has no pain for indulgence, and you can turn off the effect almost immediately with a counter-acting dose... Does it matter if you're addicted to it? Do we have a problem with people using drugs of their own free will if those drugs have no negative impact on their lives?
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This begs the question: If a drug has no pain for indulgence, and you can turn off the effect almost immediately with a counter-acting dose... Does it matter if you're addicted to it? Do we have a problem with people using drugs of their own free will if those drugs have no negative impact on their lives?
It is that last line that is the problem... Addiction does have a negative impact. That is the defining characteristic. Some examples here... http://listverse.com/2010/11/07/top-10-cases-of-extreme-game-addiction/ [listverse.com]
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Simply put, an addiction is the continued use of a drug despite clear negative effects. If you take away the negative effects, then they aren't really addicted. Kind of like the millions of perfectly functional people that depend on caffeine.
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The hangover seems to come too late to reliably cause an aversive association to alcohol. One idea behind Antabus is that the negative reaction happens quickly enough to be useful. Of course, I'd expect it would also cause an aversive reaction to the medication as well.
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...so, do you have a reason to not be drunk without ill effects? if wouldn't be bad for your health, what would be so bad about being wasted in the evenings, really?
and anyways, real alcoholists have to keep drinking to avoid the hangover that might get them killed... it's true, it can happen to real alcoholists, pink elephants and all - that's why proper doctors who get a patient who needs to go sober but who has been drinking nonstop for month+ don't do cold turkey on them(or if they do they pump them ful
As someone with a high tolerance... (Score:5, Informative)
The effects of alcohol are occasionally fun to experience, but what aren't fun are a. attempting to get drunk and failing because it takes a lot, b. attempting to get drunk, overshooting and being too drunk, and c. even after drinking exactly the right amount, getting a hangover because you had to drink a lot to get there. I totally applaud this research.
That said, this is apparently also very old [livescience.com], so I'm not holding my breath ever seeing this in reality. (That is a link to basically the same synopsis of the same guy's research, from 2006.)
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That said, this is apparently also very old [livescience.com], so I'm not holding my breath ever seeing this in reality. (That is a link to basically the same synopsis of the same guy's research, from 2006.)
Shows what he claims; the business of producing alcohol for consumption is blocking his research and efforts.
In a Nutt shell he's fighting Budwiser, just one of the many companies that would involve themselves in blocking this.
Already exists ! (Score:5, Funny)
"the effects can be quickly reversed"
It's called RU-486
*ducks*
I Have a Glass of 2006 Ribera del Duero Here... (Score:2)
Re:I Have a Glass of 2006 Ribera del Duero Here... (Score:4, Insightful)
Will Prof Nut's concoction taste this good?
I know it's a rhetorical question but can't stand not answering with a decided *NO*. I've tried both "near beer" and "non-alcoholic wine" and neither tastes anything like the real thing. They aren't even poor substitutes; they're horrible.
Professor Nut seems to think that the only reason people drink is to get drunk. He definitely needs to expand his circle of drinking companions as well as what he drinks.
Lastly, I would be afraid that his cure would be worse than the disease. This sounds like the next "date rape" drug.
Cheers,
Dave
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Try Texas-Select Non-Alcoholic Beer. If you can stomach most American "Beers" then that one is pretty close to the real thing.
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Ridiculous.
Please explain why I frequently have 1 beer or 1 glass of wine in an afternoon or evening. I weigh 205 pounds and this doesn't intoxicate me at all. I find this behavior common amongst my friends and family.
Also, maybe you should read about the history of fermentation. It's a natural, self-limiting process that preserves and concentrates calories. That might have been useful for something else, no?
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coca cola you add to the scotch it still tastes like ass.
That's your problem right there. You destroy good scotch by adding cola.
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Having a meal with Guinness is redundant.
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Yes, Guinness can be filling. That's what I have when I eat at D'Arcy's and wind up taking half the meal home.
Well, it isn't just the Guinness, their portions are American sized. But yeah, two or three pints and who needs dinner?
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That depends on your tastes...
Re:I Have a Glass of 2006 Ribera del Duero Here... (Score:5, Funny)
I have a can of Natural Ice here, and have a similar question to ask.
Obvious Investor (Score:2)
Proffessor Nut? (Score:2)
Proffessor Nut?
you don't say.
Less healthy? (Score:2)
Perhaps the one which reverses the effect of being drunk has more promise (ready to drive home), but again if abused, as I am sure it would be, the kidneys still have to work, if the person is able to drink more it is perhaps less healthy.
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You only need to drink like 1oz of wine to get those benefits. You might as well just take a tablespoon of booze and get the best of both worlds.
Re:Less healthy? (Score:5, Informative)
Yet alcohol is a risk factor for developing cancer of the throat, mouth, and basically the rest of the digestive tract. The anti-oxidants in wine are also readily available (without risk-factor alcohol) in the form of grape juice or grapes.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/alcohol [cancer.gov]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer [wikipedia.org] (3.6% of cancer cases and 3.5% of cancers deaths are attributed to alcohol)
Research into a healthier alternative (maybe added to a high anti-oxidant blueberry juice) is certainly worthwhile.
Not just this research. (Score:4, Insightful)
I've heard the drinks industry is allegedly involved against the decriminalization of pot. For obvious reasons.
I'd consider pot an already researched and much better alchohol substitute too, but each to their own.
Taste vs Effect (Score:5, Insightful)
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What's interesting is that the alcohol is such an important part of the taste of these drinks. I did an unfortunately large amount of research to find my wife a decent tasting NA beer to drink while pregnant (yes, I know there's still some alcohol in NA beer). And even the best of them (IMHO Thomasbrau, by Paulaner), just didn't taste right without the alcohol. I'd say the same of red wine where I did less extensive tasting and could find no NA wines that were even in the acceptable range.
Re:Taste vs Effect (Score:4, Insightful)
I love the taste of alcohol, too, but the buzz is part of the reason we got to liking it in the first place-- simple classical conditioning.
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Interestingly, I can't stand the taste of alcohol. I'm not sure why, but beer, wine, and any other alcoholic beverage just tastes awful to me. I can stand some mixed drinks where the alcohol flavor is masked, but that's about it. I also can't stand anything carbonated - feels like it's burning my tongue.
Granted, I don't think I'd be the market for the alcohol substitute since I wouldn't be looking for the intoxicating effects of alcohol in the first place.
Nutt, not Nut (Score:5, Informative)
First of all, it's Professor David Nutt, not "Nut"
Second of all, it's the same Professor who was a British government advisor, who was sacked [theguardian.com] for "criticising politicians for distorting research evidence and claiming alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than some illegal drugs, including LSD, ecstasy and cannabis."
Seems like a scientist with integrity. Perhaps this is less the risible ramblings of a madnam, and more he's at the "...then they laugh at you" part of fighting the good fight.
(Unless, of course, you think LSD and cannabis are more damaging than alcohol and tobacco, in which case feel free to poke fun.)
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Thank you, came here to make that point.
Yes, Prof Nutt is a remarkable sane, evidence based, thinking person. That's why he got fired by the UK government, he looked at the evidence and told the truth. That didn't mesh.
A large amount of the political pressure was from the then-hysteria over Ecstacy (MDMA), mostly led by the papers. One of his conclusions was that the sheer scale of usage, and the relatively few deaths (probably less than 10 high profile ones from memory) meant that it was statistically s
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Get Proctor & Gamble on the Phone (Score:3)
After their success with Olestra [wikipedia.org], I'm sure they have eager investors on speed-dial with money to burn on the next artificial-vice-substitute.
it's Nutt, you nut (Score:5, Informative)
Higher alcohols... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are many substances that effect our bodies in ways that are similar or complimentary to ethanol. Many of those substances are already present in fermented products like wine and beer. Some of those are higher weight alcohols(i.e. - fusel oils) like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol [wikipedia.org] or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol [wikipedia.org]. There are other components too, such as the chemicals found in hops. Most of these compounds do not metabolize into acetaldehyde so they do not result in a traditional hangover.
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Yeast (Score:2)
Just pay alcoholics to breed (Score:2)
If you are interested in my genes, send me some money and your address, and I can stick a sample in an envelope for you. Group discounts negotiable. If you all accidentally raise sociopaths, or in fact if anything at all happens, I take no responsibility at all.
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same here, no hangovers thanks to generations of alcoholics pruning the family tree. Fortunately I find the feeling of being too-drunk an adequate deterrent.
I am _not_ offering samples as the process would be significantly more challenging and unpleasant for me than for fatphil here. :-)
With effects? (Score:2)
Good luck getting that past the FDA. They frown on new 'mind alternating' chemicals.
POT (Score:2)
"Scientist Seeks Investment For "Alcohol Substitute" "
Yea, it's called POT. We've had it for a very long time.
Terrifying side effect (Score:3)
The intoxication wears off.
"subjectively indistinguishable" (Score:5, Insightful)
"subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication"
So to do that, too much would have to make you pee a lot, fall down the stairs and wake up in your own vomit, but no hangover?
Now there's a selling point for you.
Soma? (Score:2)
Where's the soma?
Although I guess you could argue salvia is basically soma, but it's now illegal in (I'm pretty sure) every state. I'm still confused why alcohol and tobacco have been excused from the morality legislation. I guess they just got the lucky break of being the state approved soma.
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Alcohol: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
The same could not be said for something like "Synthahol."
Re:Already Exists (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Already Exists (Score:5, Funny)
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everything that does anything similar is illegal... just look at weed...
Weed's only illegal because you ALLOW it to be.
Washington and Colorado have made it not illegal, Oregon and Alaska likely to to follow soon, with a whole raft of other states after that [huffingtonpost.com]
So instead of whining about it, start collecting signatures.
Personally, I'd rather drink than smoke.
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citation? or you mean eating so much hashish that it fucks up your stomach/you do something stupid? or suffocating due to breathing in only smoke for too long in some crazy weed breathing apparatus?
which is quite different from OD'ing on coke or alcohol in which you just drop dead from the stuff itself, right in the middle of the night of partying, without the person doing anything else stupid than taking 16 shots of jagermeister - and the thing with alcohol is that the killing dosage varies so much nobody
Re:Already Exists (Score:5, Informative)
Alcohol is *NOT* on the lower spectrum regarding addictiveness.
(you can die from alcohol withdrawal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_withdrawal#Prevention_of_brain_damage [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg [wikipedia.org]
Re:Already Exists (Score:5, Informative)
Cannabis:
In summary, enormous doses of Delta 9 THC, All THC and concentrated marihuana extract ingested by mouth were unable to produce death or organ pathology in large mammals but did produce fatalities in smaller rodents due to profound central nervous system depression.
The non-fatal consumption of 3000 mg/kg A THC by the dog and monkey would be comparable to a 154-pound human eating approximately 46 pounds (21 kilograms) of 1%-marihuana or 10 pounds of 5% hashish at one time. In addition, 92 mg/kg THC intravenously produced no fatalities in monkeys. These doses would be comparable to a 154-pound human smoking at one time almost three pounds (1.28 kg) of 1%-marihuana or 250,000 times the usual smoked dose and over a million times the minimal effective dose assuming 50% destruction of the THC by smoking.
Thus, evidence from animal studies and human case reports appears to indicate that the ratio of lethal dose to effective dose is quite large. This ratio is much more favorable than that of many other common psychoactive agents including alcohol and barbiturates (Phillips et al. 1971, Brill et al. 1970).
http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/LIBRARY/mj_overdose.htm [druglibrary.org]
http://www.oregon.gov/pharmacy/Imports/Marijuana/StaffReview/ReschedulingCannabis-NOTES_3-10.pdf [oregon.gov]
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And it would be damn expensive to do that.
Re:Already Exists (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is that most of the "bad effects" of alcohol, e.g. lapsing judgment, are also the "good effects". It's all about context.
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2 kilograms per kilogram? [xkcd.com]
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The risk with GHB is that when consumed with alcohol the reaction is very very bad. So the issue is, if we were to supply GHB-based beverages on the market, even with a very controlled low dose, once mixed with alcohol the results can be instant blackout (the reason why GHB is used as a date rape drug), profuse vomiting, coma, seizures, and death. You're essentially asking to end up in the ER if you do this combination to even a bit of excess.
I personally know people who had the attitude of "oh i'm experi
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Tolerance is a mixed bag. You're still likely to be messing up your liver long term. Not to mention that heavy drinkers, _especially_ those with a high tolerance, are at a high risk of an alcoholic stroke.
Re: Already Exists (Score:4, Funny)
I have a high tolerance Tonight I have consumed many drinks and nothing hs happenef to n y et I am still siber and fyully sgt jcnn
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The drug "GHB" does exactly this.
Unfortunately, high doses can cause coma.
Unlike alcohol?
And, it is illegal.
Sure is.
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Those of us with German parents started acquiring a taste for beer well before our teenage years.
Germans have a product called 'kinderbeer'. Sweet and malty with a light hoppy flavor.
To say nothing of the kirshwasser in the whipped cream, wine in the sauce etc etc.
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Nah, I'm too busy drinking the beer that makes me feel good.