Nobel Winners Illustrate Israel's "Brain Drain" 214
barlevg writes "Two of the three scientists sharing this year's Nobel Prize in Chemistry have Israeli citizenship, with Dr. Arieh Warshel having been born and educated in Israel, yet both are based at universities in the United States. These two scientists are perhaps the highest profile examples of a growing problem in the so-called "start-up nation," which is known for its high-tech tech companies and scientific innovation, and yet which loses more researchers to emigration than any other western nation. The problem? Large salary gaps between US and Israeli institutions. As Daniel Hershkowitz, president of Bar-Ilan University put it, 'I don't see Israel being able to compete with what they offer in the United States.'"
Re:TFS seems confused... (Score:4, Interesting)
There are plenty of good reasons to live here. Competition for academic jobs here is strong, despite the compensation. But the competition probably helps keep salaries low (although that's true everywhere).
Whatever the reason, low academic compensation helps keep the risk costs low of doing something crazy like founding a startup. So it cuts both ways.
In the meantime, all those drained brains keep contacts with home, meaning Israeli science keeps a higher level of contact with international academia, no bad thing in itself.
Re:The amount of Socialism... (Score:3, Interesting)
Right, because Europe doesn't have any prestigious academic institutions doing prize winning research. And I'm sure being in a perpetual state of war on their own soil just does wonders for the Israeli economy and ability to fund fripperies like science and technology.
We could do with some real socialism here, instead of the crony-capitalist half-measures we get from our system of compromises.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I would say that socially people are much warmer in the Middle-East (the kind of thing the media wouldn't cover) and it's one thing you'd actually lose out by moving to North America.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:4, Interesting)
The middle east is a big place, and the social/political situation is radically different in different places. Israel is currently much safer than it has been for a while.
I grew up in Oman as a kid, and couldn't ask for a more stable and good place to grow up. Though we lived in housing for us, it ended at the bottom of our road, and I used to leave and run about building sites and play with the locals lots.
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Interesting)
No need to exaggerate, the published figures warrant GP's question already.
Since 1985, it has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel, with Israel being the largest annual recipient of American aid from 1976 to 2004 and the largest cumulative recipient of aid since World War II.
You have got to wonder why a relatively wealthy and developed nation should be the largest recipient. The same article also answers the question of why this is mostly not being spent on scientists' salaries:
Almost all U.S. aid to Israel is now in the form of military assistance, while in the past it also received significant economic assistance
source [wikipedia.org]
The interesting question is whether this is really in the best interests of the US citizens, or just the senators and congressman who stand to lose their jobs if they get on the wrong side of AIPAC.
In addition many Individuals in the US are helping finance the bits of Israel which (even) the US government refuses to support officially, viz the illegal settlements (according to international law). They get to do this tax free in many cases though, which the elected government could easily stop if it wanted (and dared) to.
Of course there are lot of reflexive Israel supporters on /. so critical questions get modded down. But established political scientists are starting to ask the same things, see e.g. this [wikipedia.org].
Re:social/political situation? (Score:0, Interesting)
No surprise: America is full of greedy selfish people because every greedy selfish person from all over the world has moved to America in search of American Money. So thank you, World, for sending all your assholes to America to ruin America for Americans.
Re:Rocket science isn't required for this one, fol (Score:5, Interesting)
As an actual Israeli, I assure you that it is not a barren desert. There are 2 "major" deserts in the South of the country, and even in the desert there are huge green spots. A lot of the country is greener than almost any place you will find. Even some of the drier parts have been made green. For an American, I'd describe it more as the greener parts of Northern and Southern California depending on which part of the country. For a small country, there's a lot of variation.
Why would someone want to stay? As someone who grew up in Israel, left, and came back, I can answer that vs. the USA.
1. A different, more relaxing in certain senses lifestyles. Families in Israel tend to be closer I find, and there's more of a sense of community in most places. Even non-religious people for example tend to get together for Shabbat (Sabbath) dinner every week and eat great food, drink wine, chat, etc.
2. Different pace of life. Faster in some ways, slower in others. I feel people tend to value personal connections more as well. So much so, the entire country works on connections which can also be a problem.
3. Despite the racist and ridiculous posts in this article, Israelis have a deep connection to the land that dates back very far in most cases. It's hard to explain to an outsider, but it's always been our home. You can argue who owns what, but I can tell that a lot of land and other things have been usurped from my own family in the past. Our people have been massacred in Israel as well as obviously abroad, and we have a long memory. We have a tie to our land and for a lot of us, it is the only place we can feel safe. I feel safer in Israel than America, both in terms of crime and in general. No, there aren't suicide bombers and missiles landing everywhere, but on the other hand some places can be rather unsafe at times depending on political conditions. Even so, people fight on.
4. National Health Care and arguably better retirement options. This is just a disaster in America, sorry.
5. More freedoms in many ways. In Israel, you can start a campfire without a strike force of park rangers descending on you asking for permits and other nonsense.For better or worse, many day-to-day laws are treated more as a suggestion. Things get resolve, people get fined or even arrested, but it's a middle-eastern culture with democracy, which encourages a lot of "I'll do whatever I want." Take it or leave it.
6. Great food. I eat better at Cafes and Coffee shops in Israel than in many "fine" restaurants in America.
7. A mix of old world and new. It's comforting to me at least to be able to get things without chemicals, packaged 100 times, and that are actually fresh and homemade. At the same time, it's modern enough I can get most of everything
8. Culture. Israeli culture is very rich, and people don't really realize it until they're gone. This is why you see a lot of Israelis abroad hanging out with other Israelis, going to synagogues when before they were not religious, etc.
9. A belief in ourselves. The nasty things people say about Israel (ex: this thread) bring us closer together and sometimes make us realize it's the only place we can call home. It's amazing so many people care about such a tiny country and makeup such nonsense. You could at least read our history and visit a few times (better yet live here) before you make unfounded ridiculous comments.
10. Hot people. There's a lot of hot people. Really, there are. Good place to find a husband or wife.
Why leave?
1. Everything is very very expensive.
2. Did I mention everything is expensive? Well, maybe not street food.
3. Israeli universities are not be funded well. In fact, they are in many cases funded less than 40 years ago.
4. Children. It's a great place to raise them, but some parents just don't want to send their kids to the army. I view this as a sign of weakness and disloyalty, but on the other hand I can understand parents protecting their children. Mostly the army is not so heroi
Re:American subsidies (Score:5, Interesting)
Yours was a reasonable comment, rare for the topic on these forums. Let me fill in a bit:
The aid to Israel was tied to the 1978 peace treaty with Egypt. Same with the aid to Egypt. We pay them to keep the peace.
Peace and stability at least on part of the middle east is in our national interest, and many would argue it's worth a few bucks.
The aid is mostly in the form of American weapons, it acts like a subsidy to our own arms industry. Most of the money stays in the US.
It also keeps them from buying weapons from the Russians or Chinese. The region has been an arms sales showroom for a half century or more and we want them hooked up to our brand, evolving our technology.
The crazy thing is the idea of sealing a peace treaty with weapons transfers, but there are numerous social, financial, and geopolitical forces in play to keep it so.
It's far more complex than just lobbyists, not that they don't play their part.
I agree (Israeli) (Score:4, Interesting)
I tend to agree, this is one of the biggest issues for me personally. There are quite a few other issues such as orthodocs Jews political influence and the fact that there are limited opportunities due to the small size of the country.
But overall the tech industry is pretty much entirely in Tel Aviv/Hertzelia areas (with limited niches in Haifa and even less in Jerusalem). If you look at the voting record the Tel Aviv/Hertzelia area is remarkably left wing liberal (against occupation) while the rest of the country is the exact polar opposite. This generally means the brains (and financial growth) are most likely liberals.
I wanted to immigrate myself but without a foreign nationality starting from scratch is really hard, plus my aging mother is also an anchor. I plan to do it immediately when opportunity presents itself.
Western? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The amount of Socialism... (Score:4, Interesting)
The only way for socialism to work is via big government because it requires that the government take-to-give. Heck, the two largest budget items are Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security, which are both insolvent. And yes, both are even larger than Defense spending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png).
What you meant was Socialism =/= Communism, which is just socialism enforced by a government that controls all of the businesses.
What the US needs is less government, which includes a smaller defense budget, as well as less interference through social programming (intentionally not "programs"). The idea that we cannot go back to even 2008 levels of spending--before the supposedly one-time bailouts and otherwise huge deficits--is ludicrous. Socialism will break the back of an already weakened economy that cannot support the government that does not even bother trying to support itself by avoiding disgustingly high deficits.
To tell you the truth all of this conservative right-think vs. liberal wrong-think you Americans have got going is something I'll never understand. I don't really see the difference between parties like your Democrats who adopt many Social Democrat ideas and Conservatives who profess to favor free market capitalism. They both practice socialism, they just do it differently. With the Soc. Dems. it's is usually vote fishing by handing entitlements to groups that didn't earn them, i.e. schemes like "lets take all those fat private pensions and nationalize them, then lets pay out equally to everybody regardless of how much they paid into the system or whether they contributed at all". Another favorite with the Soc. Dems. is taxing the middle classes and businesses to death and levying ridiculous taxes on property that forces people to move out of houses that have been in the family for generations and that have become quite valuable due to real estate prices rising sharply over the decades (in city centers for example) because they can't afford the property taxes. WIth the conservatives it's usually corporate socialism. They deregulate the financial industry, cause a recession, the banks have to write off massive amounts of debt to companies and subprime lenders and it is Joe/Jane Suburbanite (and eventually their kids) plus smaller businesses that end up footing the bill to bail out banks and big byzantine corporations because they are job-providers and not bailing them out would put people out of work and that's not worth many votes in the next election. Mind you, much as they profess to hate things like Medicare, Bush Jr. didn't seem to have any problems fishing for votes by handing out $8.4 trillion in unfunded obligations with Medicare D so it's not as if right thinking Conservatives are above borrowing ideas from evil Socialists.
Re:Israel? Oh, you mean occupied Palestine. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Western? (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends on how much the brain drain is permanent, right after their degree I know many, many of my fellow students that were free as a bird and would jump at the opportunity to work abroad, international work experience, culture, language, seeing the world and so on. Then they think about starting a family and homesickness sets in like a homing beacon. It's one thing to travel around as a hired gun to the highest bidder, it's another to raise kids in a foreign culture. Grandparents want to see their grandchildren and so on. Of course there are two parents, maybe the compromise is neither or they both want to stay but if a fair percentage return home with foreign work experience it might pay off well. It shouldn't be ignored that if you have made decent money in the US you're a rich man in India if you choose to return there.
not just the salaries (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm an academic and just returned from a sabattical in Jerusalem. I can imagine a lot more reasons for a bright scientist to emigrate than just salary:
- Israel is still a very religious state, with e.g. no civil marriage (you marry before either the rabbi, the imam, the priest, etc, but no religion = no marriage and a mixed marriage means someone must convert). There is a minister of religious affairs and the state in waist-deep in a number of religious issues. Jewish religious schooling is mandatory in most schools. Citizenship is linked to religious/ethnic heritage.
- Israel is a segragationist state, with a large part of its citizens treated as second class (palestinians, bedouin) and there are extremist groups that physically attack people and institutions who strive for more integration and dialogue (see: price tag attacks).
- Israel is an occupying country, its army occupying a territory with over 4M people living in it. You cannot travel through Israel (much less live in it) without seeing the effects of this, in terms of checkpoints, barriers, and a general siege mentality in the population.
- Israel is surrounded by countries that are either hostile, in a civil war, or both. Jordan is an exception but if you go through Jordan you come to Iraq (hostile, civil war), Syira (hostile, civil war), or Saudi Arabia (just hostile). This contributes to the siege mentality in the population.
tl;dr: If you live in Israel, you live in country based on a tight coupling of church and state; you cannot go on holiday except by airplane; your children will face 2/3 years of military service with a good probability of serving in actual combat and occupation duties; whenever you drive over 100 miles you hit a wall (often quite literally); and almost half the people living in the area controlled by Israel are treated as second class at best. It is a bit like moving to 1950's South Carolina but with closed borders so the only way out is by flying through Europe. No, thanks.
Re:social/political situation? (Score:4, Interesting)
For US society as a whole, social mobility is documented to be abysmally low. However, academia in the US is perhaps one exception to that --- places where people are doing the kinds of research likely to win Nobel Prizes are typically not run on the megacorporate model that dominates the rest of US society. Success in research does not generally come from being golfing buddies with some multi-millionaire executive, but from actually being good at what you do. Granted, there has been a move in recent decades to transition universities to "run like a business" models, with high-paid management and disposable research labor, which is likely to result in US academia moving towards the much less meritocratic state of broader US society.