NRA Launches Pro-Lead Website 780
ideonexus writes "The National Rifle Association has launched a website defending the use of lead ammunition against scientists and environmental organizations who argue that lead bullets are poisoning the environment and tainting game meat with a known neurotoxin. The rise and fall of lead levels from gasoline and lead-based paint are strongly correlated to the rise and fall of crime rates in communities around the world."
The Romans found out about lead (Score:5, Informative)
The Romans found out about lead and its toxic effects. There's no point in using it where it isn't necessary.
Re:Decontamination (Score:5, Informative)
Actually many range mine the lead out of their backstops for resale back to either home bullet casters or commercial casting outfits.
Re:Decontamination (Score:5, Informative)
Re:non sequitur (Score:5, Informative)
The amusing thing is that the increase of bullets (i.e. people owning guns) has also contributed to drops in crime rates...
Actually, violent crime in the United States has dropped significantly since the 1980s and early 1990s [wikipedia.org], but so has gun ownership [nytimes.com].
Re:Lead if for DIY (Score:2, Informative)
No. If they ban lead you make your bullets out of lead.
Rules are made to be broken.
Re:non sequitur (Score:3, Informative)
Have you ever seen them just dissolve in water?
Of course not. It'd take a heck of a long time. How many lead statues have dissolved in the rain?
For a major leaching from them you need something else in it, like an acid, or the water to be hot and in contact for a long time. In some cases it can be a problem. When you have large amounts perhaps like in a landfill (where you can get localized heating from decay) full of old circuit boards, you might have a problem. Might.
But if lead had just dissolved like you assume, then the Romans (and many others) wouldn't have used it for plumbing as the pipes would have corroded through quickly.
The question is what dose you get absorbed. Just keep in mind the basic rule of toxicology: "Dose makes the toxin."
Re:WTF NRA? (Score:5, Informative)
$10 per shot? No, but for all my target shooting I shoot handloads. My .30-30 plinking loads I shoot with Missouri Bullet Company 165gr lead slugs. They run about $30 for 250. Thats 12 cents per bullet. Barnes bullets tend to run about $30 per 50 - about 60 cents per bullet. Not quite an order magnitude, but its still 5 times the cost.
Higher per capita gun ownership? Where? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Decontamination (Score:4, Informative)
A large part of the ammunition fired at ranges is low velocity lead. Prevents lots of barrel wear. Also less painful. Shoot 100 rounds of jacketed .357 magnum and your hand/wrist is hurting. Shoot 100 rounds of lead .38 special and your good to shoot another 100. You'll also save a few bucks in the process.
It's still a non-issue environmentally.
Re:non sequitur (Score:4, Informative)
but so has gun ownership [nytimes.com].
Has it? As a percentage of households, yes. However, you need to account for population growth over the same time period. If you do you'll see the number (not percentage) of households with firearms has stayed fairly steady over the decades.
lead plumbing. (Score:4, Informative)
I've seen stuff that says that lead contamination from piping is a lot less than people think. Especially if it's 'just' the solder. Actually, the older the piping, the better, since lead, like copper, oxidizes into a hard coating, unlike iron with relatively flaky rust. Add things like calcium deposits on top, and the contamination goes down.
It's my understanding that there are still lead service lines around. Thing is, unlike household water pipes:
1. They're pretty much always cold (less uptake if cold).
2. Water generally doesn't sit in them (less uptake due to less contact with lead)
3. Larger diameter pipes (less surface area of lead per volume of water)
4. Generally older than heck (lots and lots of buildup keeping elemental lead out of contact).
Re:The Romans found out about lead (Score:5, Informative)
Steel is banned at many ranges because it can be more damaging to metallic target stands and steel targets.
Simple solution: continue to use lead. The bill the NRA is protesting against (AB711) only bans lead ammo for hunting. If the bill passes, you can still use lead ammo for other uses (target shooting, home defense, insurrections, etc).
Not on purpose, but yes you do. (Score:5, Informative)
Irony: An idiot calling others idiots. You realize we don't eat our ammo?
Actually, you do. [slashdot.org] You really, [plosone.org] really do [sciencedirect.com].
Now do you see why the NRA is attacking scientists? The facts just don't align with their policy goals, and if you can't get the facts on your side, you attack the people stating them. Same strategy for tobacco companies. Same for major carbon emitters. Etc.
Re:The Romans found out about lead (Score:2, Informative)
Ok, deer are normally killed with a *bullet* - not shot. A single projectile passing into the vitals. At least half the time the bullet passes through the other side. When it doesn't the bullet is either lodged under the skin or is in the chest cavity. The meat in the general area is often discarded anyways due to ballistic shock (ie, it turns to a bloody mush).
Bottom line, contact between the deer and the bullet is brief (often fractions of a second) and localized.
My understanding is that your point underscores the exact reason that some organizations are pushing to eliminate hunting with lead.. namely, animal meat with lead in it is discarded, scavenged upon, and winds up poisoning wildlife. Its particularly troubling when its a species that's already endangered, like condors:
http://www.ventanaws.org/species_condors_lead/ [ventanaws.org]
Linking fail... (Score:5, Informative)
Slashdot ate the best link. Try this one [biologicaldiversity.org] instead. Good pictures of fragments in the meat.
Then try this paper out. (Score:5, Informative)
Lead fragments found in randomly sampled packages of venison donated to food banks. [biologicaldiversity.org]
Turns out that slugs leave metal fragments too.
Re:The Romans found out about lead (Score:5, Informative)
I can't seem to find any useful population-level surveys of lead exposure in the classical world; but Vitruvius does mention the health effects seen in in lead-workers:
"10. Clay pipes for conducting water have the following advantages. In the first place, in construction:—if anything happens to them, anybody can repair the damage. Secondly, water from clay pipes is much more wholesome than that which is conducted through lead pipes, because lead is found to be harmful for the reason that white lead is derived from it, and this is said to be hurtful to the human system. Hence, if what is produced from it is harmful, no doubt the thing itself is not wholesome.
11. This we can exemplify from plumbers, since in them the natural colour of the body is replaced by a deep pallor. For when lead is smelted in casting, the fumes from it settle upon their members, and day after day burn out and take away all the virtues of the blood from their limbs. Hence, water ought by no means to be conducted in lead pipes, if we want to have it wholesome. That the taste is better when it comes from clay pipes may be proved by everyday life, for though our tables are loaded with silver vessels, yet everybody uses earthenware for the sake of purity of taste."
(Pages 246-47 [gutenberg.org] of the Project Gutenberg edition.)
The degree to which the recognized the toxic effects doesn't seem to have stopped them from using lead pipes or lead acetate; but it was apparently recognized as an occupational hazard.
game animal bullets must expand (Score:5, Informative)
In most states, game animals must be shot with an expanding bullet. Either soft point or hollow point. This is intended to increase the size of the wound channel and likelihood that the shot will be rapidly fatal.
In war, these bullets are banned by the Geneva convention. Wounds are hoped to be survivable by humans and the bullets are intended to poke a hole in enemy bodies that removes them from battle.
Re:The Romans found out about lead (Score:5, Informative)
Well, considering the ATF - in its infinite malice - has banned solid copper and brass hunting projectiles as "armor piercing" even though they work EXTREMELY well as hunting bullets
Except they didn't do that. They banned brass pistol ammo, which is very rarely used in hunting.
The attack on lead ammo is about gun control, not lead abatement. Period.
Except the bill in question (AB711) places no restrictions on the sale, use or possession of lead ammo, as long as you don't hunt with it.
Re:The Romans found out about lead (Score:4, Informative)
Encapsulates the NRA spirit perfectly. The attitude on display is that the government is the enemy and not matter what law they pass with regards to guns the intent is predetermined to be evil gun control.
Re:Rational thought (Score:4, Informative)
From your post, it sounds like there is already an alternative "green" ammunition because the military is using it and that it is recognized that lead can be a problem because of the regulations surrounding shooting ranges.
Pure lead does not dissolve in water, you are correct. However, in the presence of water, lead will readily form other compounds such as lead acetate or lead sulfate or lead phosphate. While those and most lead compounds do not dissolve in pure water (pH 7.0), lead compounds will readily dissolve and leach if the water is even a bit acidic. Since most rain and soil is acidic, pure lead bullets will readily convert to a lead compound which will readily dissolve and leach into the soil and the water table. Now the rate of dissolve may not be great, but over time, those lead bullets, will leach more and more lead into the environment. Maybe not in your lifetime, but in somebody's. There is a reason we don't use lead pipes any more and we don't drink wine (an acidic drink) out of lead tankards.
So, while this may be a push by anti-gun advocates, that does not change the chemistry involved with lead nor the biological impact. We've know about the dangers of lead for a very long time. It's been banned from water fowl hunting for decades because of its propensity to contaminate the water, fish and birds, along with anything that might consume them. If there are viable alternatives, then what difference does it make what one uses for a bullet? A 150 grain bullet of a particular shape is going to have the same flight characteristics whether it is made from lead or not. Steel shot is just as effective at killing waterfowl as lead shot, so it stands to reason that it would be just as effective as lead shot for other uses, too.
The ship builders said the scientists were wrong about asbestos. History shows that the scientists were correct. The tobacco industry said the scientists were wrong about smoking. History shows that the scientists were correct. The auto industry said the scientists were wrong about lead based fuels. History shows that the scientists were correct. History shows that the detergent companies said the scientists were wrong about phosphates and the environment. History shows that the scientists were correct. The tourist industry said the scientists were wrong about sun exposure. History shows that the scientists were correct.
Who knows, though, the scientists can't always be right, can they? Maybe the NRA has found the one thing the scientists are lying about. But then there is that darn chemistry stuff. You can't just get around it. Maybe the NRA is right and the scientists are lying, but then there would have to be an awfully big conspiracy, centuries in the planning to fake the results we know about the chemistry of lead compounds.
So, even if this is politically motivated, it doesn't change the science and until somebody can refute the science, it's a safer bet to bet on the scientists than the NRA.
Re:2,000 g != 2mg (Score:5, Informative)
Crap. I had been copying and pasting the mu symbol for micrograms in all of those figures, but they all got stripped and I missed it in preview. Slashcode is removing the HTML mu tag, too. Here's the corrected version with "u" in place of the mu symbol:
While no level of exposure to lead is "safe", NIOSH has a limit of 10 ug/dL for regular people, 5 ug/dL for children, and 30 ug/dL for workers occupationally exposed to lead. In adults, symptoms of blood poisoning become evident at 40 ug/dL.
40 ug/dL is not a lot. The average adult has 50 dL of blood, meaning 2,000 ug (two milligrams) is all it takes to reach the limit. According to wolfram alpha, that amount is the size of about three grains of sand.
They didn't protect manufacturers from owners (Score:4, Informative)
The purpose of this effort was to protect the industry against nuisance suits where a gun killed someone when it was fired by a criminal and functioned perfectly. In the end, this resulted in a ban on nuisance suits by the likes of the VPC that are designed to bankrupt companies for producing legal products that function exactly as advertised.
Suits against gun companies over harm due to actual product defect are exceedingly rare, if not non-existent.
The VPC lies. Always.
Re:The Romans found out about lead (Score:4, Informative)
That's a pretty long half-life, to the point where only half the original ore decayed in the entire history of our planet, not much is likely to decay while I'm holding it. With half-lives is that longer is safer, eventually getting to the point like carbon-12 and oxygen and such which are stable (infinite half-life)
Not that I'm arguing for it, but the toxicity is likely a much bigger issue than the radiation. Give me the choice between carrying a chunk of uranium and a chunk of it's fission byproducts like caesium-137 with a half life of only 30 years and you'd better believe I'll take the uranium, and I'd just as soon you stay on the other side of that nice thick lead wall with that caesium please. Even enriched uranium isn't terribly dangerous in small quantities, it's only as it starts approaching critical mass that it starts becoming dangerous. Think of the Los Alamos criticality accident - a bunch of nuclear physists all very aware of the risks involved happily playing in a room with two chunks of enriched uranium each a bit over half the critical mass, and when they were accidentally brought into full contact and went critical for a moment the man with his hand on the screwdriver only sentenced himself to death.