Worldwide Shortage of Barium 270
New submitter redhat_redneck writes "The U.S. and Canada has been experiencing a shortage of barium sulfate, which is used as contrast for upper and lower GI studies. It has reached the point where doctors are being asked not to order these exams except in emergencies, and some exams are being cancelled. Here's the letter that's been put out by the manufacturer. The longer this drags on, the more serious this issue becomes, eventually impacting patients and healthcare providers in both cost and quality of care. Some sources point to a dramatic drop in Chinese production. In their defense, it seems China is changing safety regulations. Medical use only make a fraction of the uses of barium sulfate, but it's going to be disproportionately affected by this shortage. We can't go back to our old contrast Thorotrast; it causes cancer. Does anyone know of alternatives to barium?"
Alternatives.... (Score:5, Funny)
1. Use Thorotrast.
2. People get cancer and die.
3. Then you Barium...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Barium?
They cremated 'im!
Re:Alternatives.... (Score:5, Interesting)
The question to ask is why iodine isn't more commonly used. I know iodine is used when a rupture in the GI is suspected since the barium would cause irritation.
Iodine is now restricted by federal law. (Score:3)
Iodine is used in the illegal manufacture of Methamphetamine. As a resule, Iodine has recently been reclassified as a List I chemical under federal law. Those handling or selling iodine and its compounds must now go through a bunch of bureaucratic red tape with the DEA.
I found this out right after the Fukushima disaster (when I tried to find some potassium iodide supplement {or other potable iodine compound, such as water purification tablets or tincture of iodine} to take to bump my iodine level before t
Re: (Score:3)
The thing is, like "rare earths", Barium are not that rare. It is however not that commercially viable to produce it, so China qualifies because of cheap labor and possibly because they may actually have planned to be the major producer in this market. As with many other products, the west is happy to get it cheap and ignores the dependency on the supplier.
Why do they not recycle? (Score:5, Insightful)
The icky-factor aside, Barium is an element does not vanish and can certainly be sterilized to any degree desired. So, why do they apparently not recycle the stuff?
Re:Why do they not recycle? (Score:4, Informative)
the icky-factor is it, both aesthetically and practically. barium is excreted in the feces, not urine. so, you have the choice of doing it at the hospital, which will be inefficient (no economy of scale, and unspecialized labor), or you could do it in central locations, which would require the transport and processing of huge shipments of collected human fecal matter, the difficulties of which should be obvious. it's doable of course, but rather unlikely.
as a side note: several years ago when i went to the hospital at my college town, i noticed the vaulted ceilings and friezes put there to cater to the wealthier residents, and i recalled them quite vividly when i got my bill. i'd rather have modest (but sterile) facilities and pay less, but image is everything i suppose. the point is, not only is there "icky-factor," there's the implicit standard of living which we "must" maintain. asking patients to shit into a jar and bring it back to the hospital would just be unimaginable. for better or worse, quite a few people would literally rather die than shit into a jar for two days.
Re:Why do they not recycle? (Score:5, Funny)
Make "Rent of Barium" part of the bill - if you return the Barium, you get your deposit back.
Re: (Score:2)
Make "Rent of Barium" part of the bill - if you return the Barium, you get your deposit back.
Eww, no... I get the refund, but they get to keep the barium AND my "deposit".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Make "Rent of Barium" part of the bill - if you return the Barium, you get your deposit back.
Good plan. The last time I got a hospital bill that was not covered by insurance... I wanted to take a dump on the hospital administrator's desk.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, first I disagree on the "huge shipments", and no, I do not see the difficulties. Port-a-potty companies do this routinely, if not over longer distances. So collect, dry and sterilize (can be done economically locally) and then ship. As to the patient angle: Tell them they can either buy the stuff (at market rates), or use a chemical toilet for a day or two and bring it back that way. Or give them a laxative and have them use a special toilet in the hospital within a much shorter time. I really do not
Re: (Score:2)
Port-a-potty companies and septic companies use vacuum trucks to remove waste from portable toilets or underground storage tanks. They then truck it to a sewage treatment plant where there are unloading bays with a grate on the floor or a hose to hook to an unloading pipe. So in essence, a port-a-potty is a toilet who's plumbing is truck based instead of pipe based. The sludge is treated at the same sewage plants that serve the local population. Nothing is dried or shipped by them.
Its the sewage treatment p
Re: (Score:3)
barium is excreted in the feces, not urine. so, you have the choice of doing it at the hospital, which will be inefficient (no economy of scale, and unspecialized labor), or you could do it in central locations, which would require the transport and processing of huge shipments of collected human fecal matter, the difficulties of which should be obvious. it's doable of course, but rather unlikely.
We already collect it in a central location, just without the concentration of being only those with barium in it. But if it's so precious, it would be viable to extract it at the large metropolitan waste processing stations.
Re: (Score:3)
Also, that wouldn't help much anyway - most the barite mined goes to oil and gas drilling, so sooner or later we'd run into problems getting enough new barium for medical purposes to replenish the stuff lost, and reusing the medical barium wouldn't help delay that by much.
Re:Why do they not recycle? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a problem with more than Barium. Tons of nutritionally beneficial trace minerals and other such things are all being flushed into the oceans via sewage treatment & disposal, as our stool doesn't return to local soil.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
This, this is a huge problem that extends far beyond medical waste.
The human race as a whole likes to think that their waste just vanishes in to the pits of hell. It doesn't, it goes in a landfill or shat out in to the ocean.
This is a terrible thing when so much of it can be recycled very easily.
Biomass in particular is extremely precious for farm and in turn food related stuff, it can turn dying land back in to healthy land, various other useful minerals that can be extracted, methane in particular.
This m
Re: (Score:2)
And waste food as well. Setting up a recycle program to put waste food in a box that gets picked up, or even giving people a free (or cheap) blender for the sake of breaking down food to be flushed down the toilet and treated at a recycling plant that would be in your local sewage treatment.
Many houses already have "garbage disposals" which perform this function. If not, they're not all that expensive to purchase.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The icky-factor aside, Barium is an element does not vanish and can certainly be sterilized to any degree desired. So, why do they apparently not recycle the stuff?
Why do I get this image of patients being given diuretics and not being allowed to leave until they cough up the Barium they were given? I'm guessing the bulk of it takes more than a couple of hours to pass through their system and 90% of the tests are outpatients. It's not the ick factor it's the practicality of it. I doubt you'd recover more than 10% for all the extra expense involved. I guess you can require them to sit around for 6 or 8 hours and piss in a bucket but even then at best half the Barium wo
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know offhand whether it's dissolved or suspended, but either way recovering and reprocessing is probably going to be disproportionately expensive. It's not just sterilization either, contaminants of various kinds will have to be removed as well. (And contaminants doesn't just include the obvious stuff - my feces may contain drugs you are sensitive or allergic to, as well as food allergens, etc...)
Re: (Score:3)
Because not much is used in medical practice, so it's not worth it. The main use of Barium is Barite which is a Drilling Fluid [wikipedia.org] for drilling bore holes. You may have heard of white mud?
Re: (Score:2)
So TFA is really about supporting the drilling industry and the medical problem is just a smokescreen? Makes sense to me.
Re: (Score:3)
Because it comes out of your rectum.
Rectum?
Barium!
Alternatives include (Score:2, Interesting)
Gastrografin and Ultravist. No reason to defer these examinations.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Unless the patient is intolerant of iodine, which many people are. Granted, most are intolerant of *IV* iodinated contrast media rather than PO, but if they have "iodine in contrast" in their allergy list, what radiologist wants to risk getting sued for giving them Gastrografin? Not many I know of, for sure...
Re:Alternatives include (Score:5, Insightful)
Quoting from the Wikipedia article for Iodine,
"Iodine sensitivity is rare but has a considerable effect given the extremely widespread use of iodine-based contrast media".
So I would say that using Diatrizoic acid/diatrizoate as a Barium replacement (Hypaque, Gastrografin and Ultravist are the trade names) in cases where there is no flagged Iodine sensitivity in the patient is viable, with Barium being used in those rare cases (if in doubt, do a quick Iodine test, as far as I can recall the results are pretty quick - a drop of iodine on the inside of the wrist or elbow, a small rash will form if the recipient is sensitive, and the rash can be treated with standard rash creams (if the recipient is REALLY sensitive, anaphylactic shock is a possibility if a large amount of Ioidine is applied - you dip the person's arm in it - but if the sensitivity is that bad, it should already be flagged). This also has a positive effect for most people, who are generally short of the daily Iodine intake levels they should have.
Disclaimer, my medical knowledge is limited by the fact that I dated and lived with a med student for 7 years, helping her study and revise for exams. Talk to your doctor if you have concerns about your own potential Iodine sensitivity or Gastro-intestinal issues. Do not come to /. and expect sane medical opinions here...
Supply and demand (Score:2)
Other countries will ramp up production. It will just take time.
"Increased safety in Chinese mines" damn commies! (Score:2)
Apparently due to increased safety regulations being adhered to in Chinese mines. Damned commies! they'll have unions next!
Re: (Score:2)
B12 (Score:2)
I smell oil. (Score:5, Interesting)
Barium Sulfate is also HUGELY important in oil well drilling mud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drilling_fluid#Composition_of_drilling_mud [wikipedia.org]
China putting a crimp on drilling mud could have some interesting effects, I'm sure. What makes little sense is the complaining about a shortage in hospitals, where a dose is less then an ounce, when oil drillers are pumping the stuff into the ground by the ton...daily...all over the world. Unless of course somebody wants us to get excited about China stepping on the hose without us finding out where the real shortage is.
I wonder who that might be. I also wonder who submitted this story.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Fooium (Score:2)
... or possibly bazium.
question (Score:5, Funny)
Doesn't anyone recycle this crap?
Why are you asking us? (Score:2)
Does anyone know of alternatives to barium?
I hope you're not considering taking any answers you get from Slashdot seriously. Let's leave this one to medical science.
Re: (Score:2)
But that's how crowdsourcing works: you get a throng of people who don't really know anything about the subject, a bunch of people with working knowledge, and one or two experts, get them to all throw their ideas out, and then spend the next few years trying them all, in order of which ones got modded "Funny" the most.
Re: (Score:2)
Does anyone know of alternatives to barium?
I hope you're not considering taking any answers you get from Slashdot seriously. Let's leave this one to medical science.
Lo and behold, just a couple of comments below you, there is a medical student who suggests Diatrizoic Acid as a replacement.
It's not a real issue. (Score:2)
The price of barium metal at the moment is $150/kg or so - in small quantities.
Some of the 'unavailable' compounds mentioned above had a weight of around 340g, or 150g of barium, about $20.
Sure, you need processing - which pretty much amounts to dumping it in a tub, along with sulphuric acid.
Does the manufacturer of the barium compound have a problem sourcing product in a way that will result in a medically approved product without further applications to the FDA - perhaps.
But it's not shortage of barium.
Diatrizoic Acid (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Given that almost every "expert" on here seems to be going off on one about "rare earth" issues, I doubt they're even aware of what barium itself is, let alone any alternatives to BaSO4 contrast suspensions.
Re: (Score:2)
The essential feature of the element is that it has a high X-ray absorbance. But, any heavy metal has a high X-ray absorbance; this is why thorium was used in the first place. The problem is the solubility: barium sulfate is essentially insoluble, but other metals are usually somewhat soluble and thus toxic. In principle you could use any heavy element (iodine, mercury, lead, uranium, thorium, bismuth, etc.). In practice, barium, iodine, bismuth and thorium have been used.
One alternative that is worth a m
Re: (Score:2)
One alternative that is worth a mention is something that absorbs less that tissue, namely air.
I believe air is the most common "contrast" medium when doing CT virtual colonoscopies [wikipedia.org]. It works well in cases where you can evacuate the entire compartment thoroughly beforehand, and "inflate" it.
However, a liquid contrast medium has the ability to mingle with fluids and semi-solids, allows you to imagine structures in a native (non-distended) shape, including natural movement (such as following the movement of food over time). Also, the sharp border produced by Barium's coating property is especially im
There is not a shortage of barium... (Score:2)
...but if you want to know where its being used in large quantities.... Do a google search on Barium and chemtrails.
No Shit! And for those who do not believe chemtrails exist.... even mainstream news has covered the matter.
No shortage just expensive (Score:3)
There is no shortage. The problem is the price is increasing. But most likely the reimbursement rate by Medicare hasn't gone up to keep pace so they can't fill the orders for the price Medicare is covering. Most of this GI stuff is for seniors anyway. This is most likely a political move to get people scared so they can get the lobbyists to jack up the reimbursement rate.
Worldwide? (Score:2)
FTFA, "National", and from the summary, USA & Canada. What about the 6 billion other people you forgot?
alternative (Score:2)
Barium not an option?
Then Crematum.
Ingestible Cameras (Score:2)
The price of the ingestible cameras just needs to become cheaper than the barium and some automated processing of the 'footage' needs to become available. Radiologist consults are likely more expensive than either costs to make.
welcome to the world of regulation (Score:2)
There are good alternatives to barium (such as gold), but you can't use them until the FDA approves them.
Oh shit ... (Score:2)
Oh shit ... it out... and recycle it, duh.
Bismuth (Score:2)
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course Slashdot readers are supposed to get it.
Contrast is what it says. It's there to make whatever you want investigate stand out from the rest observe it. For instance to make blood vessels easier to see. (Now I don't know whatever this is x-ray, MR, ultra-sound or whatever.) My english isn't good enough to know what GI is (gut-ingestion?) but I guess it's the stuff from the throat to the ass.
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Informative)
what GI is (gut-ingestion?) but I guess it's the stuff from the throat to the ass.
Gastrointestinal, your guess is correct: mouth-esophagus-stomach-intestines-anus. It's basically one continuous external surface inside the body.
Re: (Score:3)
It's basically one continuous external surface inside the body.
You make us sound like living, breathing Klein Bottles...
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Funny)
It's basically one continuous external surface inside the body.
You make us sound like living, breathing Klein Bottles...
Not a Klein bottle... We're basically just a living, breathing donut.
Re: (Score:2)
We're basically just a living, breathing, seriously deformed donut.
FTFY.
(At any rate, that reminds me to get some exercise today...)
Re: (Score:3)
We're basically just a living, breathing, seriously deformed donut.
FTFY.
(At any rate, that reminds me to get some exercise today...)
Well if your goal is to look more like a donut... eating more donuts is actually a way to achieve that.
Re: (Score:2)
We're basically just a living, breathing, seriously deformed donut.
FTFY.
(At any rate, that reminds me to get some exercise today...)
Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe they couldn't figure out what donuts were supposed to be shaped like so they just made all the donuts round.
Re: (Score:2)
Just a bit less powdery and a bit more farty.
Re: (Score:2)
Topologically you are homeomorphic to a doughnut
Re:What the what what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe if you were born without a nose.
Re:What the what what? (Score:4, Funny)
The word is torus. We are basically homeomorphic to a torus. So are sheep -- apply a mapping such that the interior and exterior of the torus are exchanged, and the result is called a haggis.
Re: (Score:3)
A five-hole donut (assuming your anatomy is normal - including intact eardrums).
Mouth-to-anus gastrointestinal tract, two nostrils (into throat), two ducts from corners of eyes (into nasal passages).
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Informative)
Layman's explanation: Contrast agent is something that shows up as a bright color on your scan. There are many different kinds of contrast used for many different purposes, too many to list here. Barium contrast is swallowed and shows up as bright white on regular X-rays and CT scans (CTs are a multitude of X-rays taken by a computerized scanner which is then turned into a quasi-3D representation.) The reason somebody would use barium is to look at the shape of the esophagus (food pipe), stomach, intestines, and rectum to see if there are any parts that are too wide, too narrow/pinched off, the wrong shape, if there is a blockage, etc.
Not so layman's explanation of the tests mentioned:
- Barium swallow: Barium is swallowed and a real-time series of X-rays (fluoroscopy) of the throat (pharynx) is done to see if the barium is swallowed properly. The resulting video shows where the barium goes. This is ordered if the doctor suspects the person may be having problems swallowing (aspiration or refluxing.)
- Esophogram: Barium is swallowed and fluoroscopy of the esophagus is performed to see if there are any abnormalities of the size/shape/anatomy of the esophagus. This is also ordered if somebody has trouble swallowing and the doctor suspects some problem like a stricture, widening of the esophagus (achalasia), abnormal anatomy of the esophagus (such as a diverticulum, malignancy, etc.)
- UGI = Upper gastrointestinal study. This fluoroscopy stufy follows the barium from being swallowed until it goes into the stomach. It shows all of the same things as the esophagram along with the size/shape/anatomy of the stomach as well. Ordered for the same reasons as the esophagram as well as if you suspect some anatomic problem with the stomach (e.g. stomach stapling/bypass not working correctly, etc.)
- Small bowel follow through: Barium is swallowed and then a series of individual X-rays taken at certain time intervals to track the progress of the barium through the stomach and small intestine. This is done to investigate things like the stomach emptying too slowly and obstructions in the small intestine.
- Barium enema: Barium is given via enema into the rectum to look at the anatomy of the rectum. This can investigate anatomic abnormalities of the rectum such as masses and fistulas (a hole from the rectum to somewhere else, this is abnormal.) This can also be used to both diagnose and treat intusussception (a disease of infants where part of the large intestine telescopes into itself.)
Re: (Score:2)
Just as a note, I had an upper GI tract study done with barium sulfate about fifteen years ago to diagnose a hiatal hernia. They showed me a clear X-ray video of my swallowing and the pouch in front of my stomach that was causing my reflux and pain. For such a simple test, it's a great visualizer of stomach problems.
(The next two bowel movements I had were literally like lead bricks. If you want to mine more barium, I'd say check the sewers.)
I expect that without barium sulfate, the upper GI study will b
Re:What the what what? (Score:4, Funny)
It's more invasive, more expensive, and requires general anesthetic.
No. It can and usually is done under twilight sedation.
I can see that would work; watching the Twilight movies would put anyone to sleep.
Re: (Score:3)
"Twilight sedation" is when you are given a drug to make you sedated but not actually to the point of unconsciousness as with general anesthesia. The big advantages of it is that you do not need an anesthesiologist around or quite the same level of monitoring, plus patients tend to come out of it quicker. Usually it is done with midazolam (Versed) which as a useful side effect generally makes people forget the procedure. Sometimes fentanyl is used as well, it also is a pain medication. Kids tend to get keta
That's an I not an L. (Score:2, Funny)
GI stands for Gastro-Intestinal, as in the eponymous tract. You are not as much of a smartass as you think you are.
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Which opens a whole other can of worms with risks of colon perforation, reactions to the anesthetic, etc...
Re: (Score:2)
They only usually give you an enema if they're looking at the rectum. Every other bit of the lower GI has the contrast medium ingested.
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Informative)
Barium is a rare earth metal.
Not exactly, Barium is an alkaline earth metal, related to Magnesium and Calcium. Interestingly though, the U.S. are one of the largest producers of Barium, accounting for about 8% of the world wide barium output. It's mainly mined as barit, or heavy spar.
Re:What the what what? (Score:4, Interesting)
The issue with US-mined barite/barium sulfate is that is lacks the high purity required to meet pharmaceutical specifications. US barite tends to be lower grade (having higher impurities) and is more suited as an industrial filler or weighting agent in drilling mud.
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Informative)
Typical impurities in US barium sulfate (Nevada mines) are silica and strontium sulfate. Silica can be somewhat removed via froth flotation using standard commercially known techniques. The Sr is bound up in the Ba-Sr-SO4 lattice and very difficult to remove. Were they not bound together in the crystalline structure you could likely use an alkaline leach with sodium hydroxide (I saw a patent from the 1930s or 1940s that discussed this very approach), but when they are bound together you do not get selective leaching. Also, because they are bound together gravimetric separation (SrSO4 = ~3.8 SG IIRC, BaSO4 = ~4.45 SG) doesn't work.
Sr and Ba are very similar chemically, but to meet the USP requirement of 97.5% min BaSO4 you have to be able to get the purity up (or start with a high purity ore). The USP assay test differentiates between the two because of the difference in solubility as chromates - the Sr chromate is much more soluble but you have to convert everything to chromates to get the Sr to drop out, then you'd have to convert the Ba chromate back to BaSO4 and not leave any chromate in there, as it is very toxic. At that point you are no longer dealing with natural purified barium sulfate but are instead making a precipitated barium sulfate, in which case you could just start with pretty much any barium compound and fully react it with sulfuric acid. The problem here is that any soluble barium left behind is very toxic (for a real life example of what could go wrong see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celobar_incident).
By the time you do all of the processing above the cost is nowhere near what could be achieved with natural, high-purity barium sulfate ore that undergoes a simple acid leach.
Re: (Score:2)
---
Chemistry Feed [feeddistiller.com] @ Feed Distiller [feeddistiller.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Basically, barium is a radio-opaque powder that shows up on the xrays, so doctors can see any obstructions or abnormalities throughout your entire digestive system. They give it to you in a disgusting milkshake format which is white, tastes bad, and is extremely thick. As you're forced to drink it over a period of several hours, you periodically go in to the xray room to have pictures taken.
The first time I went fo
Re: (Score:3)
You poor bastard. My experience was just a single barium milkshake, preceded by a pill-cup full of flavorless pop rocks to inflate my stomach. Considering the after-effects of just one (I foolishly thought I could go to work that afternoon), I can only imagine the effects of multiple barium milkshakes.
For those who've yet to experience this miracle of modern medicine: when asked what flavor you want added, choose a flavor you won't care if you never taste again, for you'll probably never want to taste it ag
Re: (Score:2)
Which brings up the point - none of this barium has actually left the Earth - it's all around here somewhere. The medical barium all came out in the end, and depending on what's done with solid sludge from the waste treatment plants, we know where it is. However since only a small portion of the population is ever getting this procedure at anyone time, it's probably quite dilute. This of course suggests one possible measure, and that's keeping barium patients around the hospital a day or two longer, and
Re: (Score:2)
That's great, except a lot of time this is an outpatient procedure. I wasn't even _at_ a hospital, just a medical office where the doc worked most of the time. I can't even imagine the increased costs of hospitalizing someone for a couple days for what's essentially just a the preliminary stages of a diagnosis.
Re: (Score:3)
It really depends upon when the cost of barium becomes greater than the cost of keeping you in some sort of minimal care/cost sh*t-wait facility. Note that no such facility exists today, but if relative costs change...
I'm also under the impression that antibiotics leave the body in urine and feces. How much antibiotic resistance is because of misuse, and how much is because of uncontrolled introduction into the environment through our wastes? Such a facility mentioned above might also be worthwhile for o
Re:What the what what? (Score:5, Insightful)
You wouldn't be welcome on such a site, given your attitude to questions - which, after all, are a prerequisite to learning.
First, medicine is a science, thus the expression "most scientific and medical terms" is redundant. Second, no one understands most scientific terms. "Science" refers to the entire body of human knowledge, which not only is far too vast for any one person to know most of, but also grows faster than you can learn it - even if your learning capacity was unlimited, the bandwidth of your senses is simply not enough.
Finally, "nerd" doesn't necessarily refer to someone interested in either science in general or medicine in specific. People who are enthusiastic about programming, or matemathics, or 19th century French poetry could all be called nerds without necessarily knowing what "GI" refers to in a medical context - assuming it actually refers to just one thing and isn't reused anywhere. On the other hand, "LEO" is usually used with sufficient context to conclude that we are talking about some kind of satellite orbit or at the very least a space trajectory.
Perhaps you wouldn't have such issues with jocks if you changed your attitude a little? Because I can certainly see why a jock - or, really, anyone - might not like you.
They don't like you because you're an arrogant twat, just in case you didn't get that already.
Re: (Score:2)
What about recycling? I mean even if it degrades to something else because of radioactivity, there's no reason not to revert that process and use solar energy to do it.
Barium sulfate is not radioactive.
It's very insoluble in water, which is why it's so useful as a contrast agent; it's very heavy (thus, radio opaque) but insoluble so it doesn't have toxic effects.
Recovering it would be a case of waiting for the patient to shit it out. Perhaps hook all of the hospital toilets to a reclamation system. I figure the cost of reclaiming the amount used in a typical X-ray study is just not a cost effective thing to do.
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps hook all of the hospital toilets to a reclamation system.
. Or just ask the patient to take his next dump in a plastic bag...
Re: (Score:2)
In the abstract, this may sound great, but I doubt many average people will want to drink the "recovered" barium....
It's also not just the "ick" factor: The stuff is often passed-through very sick people. In re-processing it you would need to absolutely guarantee you had eliminated any and all biological "stuff" right down to the cellular level ..... without error. ANY quality control problems == huge lawsuits. We used to re-use syringes and needles in medical facilities, but no more ..... you only do such things when it's so hard and expensive to make new stuff and the lawsuit penalties for error are so low that the risks are "acceptable"; that's just not modern America.
Well, it melts at around 1300 C, so I assume heating it in a furnace at 1000 C would be suitable for eliminating "any and all biological stuff"?
Re:Sorry, let me clarify (Score:5, Insightful)
Was being brief and assumed the implications were obvious...... guess not
1. Just because a few geeks are certain re-use is ok and might be willing to do it, the general public would not be
2. Even if you are a geek, there's no guarantee some minimum-wage flunky at a re-processing company (or some unionized hospital worker who is mad and in the middle of some "labor action") is gonna do a perfect job and the stuff YOU end up drinking will be properly re-processed. A bit like drinking re-cycled urine .... fine if you are a geek and the processing is being done by the rocket scientists at NASA for the space station, but are you still willing if it's being done by the guy who's only other career option included saying "want fries with that?"
3. A good lawyer will easily convince a typical jury (possibly with members who are anti-science lefties who reject nuclear stuff) that there was some bad thing in the re-processing process (probably done by evil "big hospital" or "big pharma") i.e. it's just another level of "doubt" ....
Think some more and you can imagine many other reasons that each just make the business case a little bit harder to close. No single cut might kill the patient (in this case: re-use of Barium), but lots of little cuts and he bleeds-out
You assume, naively, that the hospital does the recycling and just makes up fresh suspensions. Of course, if any recycling was done it would be to recover the pure BaSO4, which would be the domain of a chemical supplier; who then supplies the material to a pharma company, who then makes the thing you drink, who sells it to the hospital.
Recovering the material from shit is no different to recovering it from the ore it originally came from in the ground. Medical-purity BaSO4 is likely to be a further cut above the lab-grade stuff you can buy from any number of common chemical suppliers - purifying it is trivial - they do it all the time to make the stuff in the first place. What we're discussing here is the economic viability of recovering it from sewage waste. The source is ultimately unimportant. If it ends up in a drug it has to come from a very specific, well monitored source. There's no chance some "flunky" is going to affect the dose of contrast agent you drink. (Oh, and nice, unnecessary jab at union workers and "lefties" there - given your level of discourse and opinion of union labour I'll try and keep my words to fewer than four syllables so you can follow along).
It seems you live in a world full of conspiracies and hidden enemies in the shadows at every turn trying to get one over on you. You might want to just relax a bit. You can log in too; the government is not tracking your slashdot account.
Re: And I trust you volunteer to be 1st in line (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I think the medical profession is wasteful if they are not reusing barium on-site!
When penicillin was very new and little of it was available during and immediately after WW2, the urine of penicillin-treated patients was collected and distilled, so the penicillin could be saved and re-used several times over.
I don't see a problem with doing the same by purifying barium from patients' stool, expect the disgusting aspect. However, medical professionals must have a tolerance for disgust, else they would be not able to do their work.
It's not the bodies of the medical professionals that the recycled barium has to go in to, so I assume they'll be fine with it.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Is there any other place to get Barium besides China?
They're called rare earth metals not so much because they're rare, since they're a bit all over the place, but because they're not concentrated enough to mine efficiently. This makes it highly polluting to extract them.
The US a couple more countries used to extract them, until China came along with no pollution standards, and priced everyone out of the market. Trouble is, you can't "just restart" such a mine. It's a decade long process to do so -- and it's in progress insofar as I've been following, because
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ouch! Complete chemistry fail!
Barium is certainly NOT a rare earth. It is an alkaline earth metal. Look at the periodic table for christ's sake.
And the sad thing is this got modded up. Doesn't anybody know their high school chemistry anymore?
*weep*
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
" These chinese fcukers are starting to realise how much the West depends on their cheap products and are throwing their weight around..."
Cheap products like iPhones and iPads? What do you think they make those things out of? Rare Earth metals are used extensively in our modern gadgets, gadgets that we pay them to make for us. Seriously, where the heck do you think they are supposed to get the materials to make this stuff? Sell it to us so we can sell it back to them? Why not use it in the products they mak
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
People seem to think that China is some sort of charity. If people want to talk of global monopolization, then you should consider things like farm subsidies. Cheap rare earth materials may have enabled China to grow its production industry at the expense of certain rich countries in the past (and I'd say that current changes actually represent a *restoration* of the natural order of things) but present agricultural subsidies are basically killing people in poor countries *right now*. I'd be all in favour o
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know where this article is coming from, but worldwide baryte production is in the order of couple million tons. A day's production is enough to give one billion people the procedure. It is not strategically important at all. I can buy it by truckload at about 200$/ton.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Calcium sulfate is water soluble.
Strontium sulfate is somewhat water soluble.
The advantage of barium sulfate is that it's not water soluble.
I say anyone needing a contrast drinks several bottles of Goldschlager before the procedure.
Re: (Score:2)
Does anyone know of alternatives to barium?
Um, how about calcium sulfate or strontium sulfate? All are alkaline earth metals, and have the same or similar basic chemical properties because of having the same valence, electron configuration and so on. Right?
It's not the chemical properties that are really important (other than the insolubility of BaSO4). The main reason is the density of the Ba atom - it's heavy, so it has a high absorption cross section for X rays. Calcium and strontium are much less large.
Well, I'm Sorry - We're LOW on Barium! (Score:3)
I guess that means "No enema for you!" :-)