Spinal Fluid Chemical Levels Linked To Suicidal Behavior 85
An anonymous reader writes "For the first time, researchers have found that a chemical in the brain called glutamate is linked to suicidal behavior. While previous research and drugs have targeted serotonin to fight severe depression, this study shows that more attention should be paid to this chemical."
Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. (Score:4, Informative)
TFA contains a direct link to the original article in the journal Neuropsychopharmacology [nature.com] FFS, can we advance to the next stage of logical fallacies now ..
Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. (Score:5, Informative)
OK then, it's Bush's fault....
The original FA (in the journal) has a reasonable abstract:
The NMDA-receptor antagonist ketamine has proven efficient in reducing symptoms of suicidality, although the mechanisms explaining this effect have not been detailed in psychiatric patients. Recent evidence points towards a low-grade inflammation in brains of suicide victims. Inflammation leads to production of quinolinic acid (QUIN) and kynurenic acid (KYNA), an agonist and antagonist of the glutamatergic N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor, respectively. We here measured QUIN and KYNA in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of 64 medication-free suicide attempters and 36 controls, using gas chromatography mass spectrometry and high-performance liquid chromatography. We assessed the patients clinically using the Suicide Intent Scale and the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS). We found that QUIN, but not KYNA, was significantly elevated in the CSF of suicide attempters (p less than 0.001). As predicted, the increase in QUIN was associated with higher levels of CSF interleukin-6. Moreover, QUIN levels correlated with the total scores on Suicide Intent Scale. There was a significant decrease of QUIN in patients who came for follow-up lumbar punctures within 6 months after the suicide attempt. In summary, we here present clinical evidence of increased QUIN in the CSF of suicide attempters. An increased QUIN/KYNA quotient speaks in favor of an overall NMDA-receptor stimulation. The correlation between QUIN and the Suicide Intent Scale indicates that changes in glutamatergic neurotransmission could be specifically linked to suicidality. Our findings have important implications for the detection and specific treatment of suicidal patients, and might explain the observed remedial effects of ketamine.
TL;DR - Suicidally depressed patients seem to have a low level inflammatory process going on. They measure two compounds (out of many) in spinal fluid samples of depressed and control patients that are part of the inflammatory pathway are related to the turnover of glutamate, an amino acid felt to be a neurotransmitter (first link the TFS, a nice short explanation). The glutamate agonist levels were higher in suicidal patients, the glutamate antagonist not.
Potentially a method of quantitating level of suicideality which is a very problematic issue (witness the recent shootings in Connecticut). Very early data. Manuscript submitted but not accepted. At the level of interesting but don't run down to the local Szechuan restaurant and OD on MSG. Oh, and leave the ketamine to the vets.
Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. (Score:5, Funny)
Forgot to add:
Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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Mr Hoppy!
Re:Suggestion: Stop linking to Medical Daily. (Score:5, Funny)
glutamate, an amino acid felt to be a neurotransmitter
Felt to be a neurotransmitter in the same way that hemoglobin is felt to be important to your circulatory system.
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Speaking of which, are suicide rates lower in Japan? According to my buddies wife, who lived there for a while, it's actually hard to find regular salt because almost everyone uses MSG exclusively. I also use MSG almost exclusively instead of table salt. Not because it tastes better or anything, I just like to freak people out when I cook for them and they want to know what I put in it. As soon as I whip out the MSG their eyes get big "I thought that was poisonous!!!" lol
FYI: MSG + Onion powder + fresh grou
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Answered my own question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan [wikipedia.org]
Looks like MSG wont do you any good. But if anything will get you out of your funk and keep you from offing yourself, my burger recipe is it.
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re-read the article. The people who attempted suicide had higher levels of glutamate:
So you should keep those burgers away from depressed people with easy access to k
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So are we saying that Japanese ritual suicide may in fact just be the result of a seasoning selection??? Hhhhmmmm, DEATH BY UMAMI!!!!
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xCT cystein antiporter ! (Score:1)
It may all come down the the xCT cystein antiporter on glial cells. These cells mop up excess extracellular glutamic acid and turn it into inactive glutamine which can be safely returned to neurons as well as producing Glutathione together with cystein
as our bodies produce superoxide radical O2^- as a by product of respiration we've developed a defense mechanism the SuperOxideDismutase enzyme which turns it into the less harmful H2O2, consuming glutathione in the process. Glutathione is a tripeptide manifac
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Thanks for the tip! I will try this tomorrow.
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Oh, and leave the ketamine to the vets.
Soldiers have all the fun
And the antidote: (Score:4, Funny)
Special K.
"No, officer, I'm not abusing drugs, I'm suicidal"
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I know a few more that kick in really well. Oddly, none of them make it into prescription drugs.
The mad tinfoil hatter in me claims it's because it's much more profitable to keep selling pills that don't work and tell people that they "need a while to work".
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I don't know whether "suggesting" the (ab)use of illegal drugs is illegal in some country, so I just link to the US National Center for Biotechnology Information [nih.gov].
Glutamate (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Glutamate (Score:5, Funny)
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Ha! I always kept a jug full of liquid labeled "dihydrogen monoxide cleaning fluid" in my fridge. Nobody ever touched it but they sure asked about it.
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Focus the research where it matters (Score:2)
The important part is that the suicidal people had dihydrogen monoxide in their cerebrospinal fluid.
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High blood pressure does lead to heart disease, like high brain activity leads to depression.
Re:Glutamate (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, I can see how thinking too hard can lead to depression in this world.
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Thinking too hard and getting absolutely nowhere, with no horizon of actually getting somewhere.
Anecdotally, I've noticed that people who don't like thining hard, and don't care if they get anywhere, are the happiest people out there. And because of the preconditions, you won't find them on Slashdot.
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Alas, that's about the state of neuropharmacology. The whole serotonin SSRI anti-depressant thing is at about the same level (and probably wrong).
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Flavour enhancer (Score:2)
Glutamate is a quite common flavour enhancer in processed food. Does that mean processed food can make you suicidal?
Re:Flavour enhancer (Score:5, Funny)
Glutamate is a quite common flavour enhancer in processed food. Does that mean processed food can make you suicidal?
No, but it does explain why brains are so tasty.
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Glutamate is a quite common flavour enhancer in processed food. Does that mean processed food can make you suicidal?
No, but it does explain why brains are so tasty.
These [ihatemymessageboard.com] ought to be delicious, then! (Er, but you can try them first, though...)
Warning; link NSFL ("Not Safe For Lunchtime").
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Reading your comment, I'm not sure that you know what you are talking about.
Let's start with your last example, of sodium chloride. When solved in water, it is separately sodium ions and chloride ions. Sop yes, you are drinking chloride when you're drinking sodium chloride. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't drink (or eat) too much of it. Maybe you were confusing it with chlorine (same element, but neutral molecules; drinking that certainly is not a good idea, although at normal condit
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Before accusing others not to know what they are talking about, you should make sure you know what you are talking about yourself.
Welcome to the new /.
Glutamate has become very common in modern food (Score:4, Informative)
Glutamate has become very common in all sorts of pre-cooked prepared foods...everything from canned soup to rice-a-roni mixes. It's usually added as something called "MSG" or monosodium glutamate although it is also often added under names such as 'hydrolyzed protein,' 'autolyzed protein,' 'sodium caseinate,' 'autolyzed yeast,' or 'yeast extract.' Food manufacturers have found that adding MSG has a powerful on flavor and makes consumers more likely to 'like' the food and consume greater quantities. A more scientific name for 'glutamate' is 'glutamic acid' and it is a common amino acid found in protein. Food manufacturers have argued successfully for years that since it is an amino acid found in protein, there should be no restrictions on its use. However, as TFA discusses, the quantity of glutamic acid consumed DOES matter and artificially spiking a variety of food with it to make the food taste better may be causing a lot of suicides. Perhaps the school shooter in Connecticut was a heavy consumer of something spiked with MSG such as, for example, many (although not all) varieties of potato chips.
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You do realize that it is not only so called 'processed' foods that have MSG, right? Yes it is obviously a drug, but a very effective one. Used in the correct dosage it can make flavors more intense. Unfortunately I am highly sensitive to MSG and can only use very small quantities of it.
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the blood/brain barrier is not permeable to glutamate
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More to the point, MSG is the beginning of modern food science. It was first extracted from seaweed. It was the first chemical extracted from food. Considered a "chemical condiment" which increased food reward and therefore food consumption. None of the potential effects of increasing food reward in such a high-potency fashion, or any negative effects from constant increase in brain neurotransmitter levels were considered (and hardly are today, over 100 years later)
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Perhaps the school shooter in Connecticut was a heavy consumer of something spiked with MSG such as, for example, many (although not all) varieties of potato chips.
Well, one thing is for certain, due to the demise of Hostess, if he had survived, he wouldn't have been able to use the "Twinkie Defense": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense [wikipedia.org]
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Oh horrors, better start avoiding that unnatural glutamate. All meat, fish, cheese and tomato products are evil and full of that stuff! All that savory tasting stuff.
The reason it tastes good is because it is one of the few things we have taste receptors for. We like added glutamate for the same reason we like all those hearty tasting stews, roasts, casseroles and such that naturally contain it.
That scary sounding monosodium, disodium and such parts in front of the name are mostly irrelevant. They just soun
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Glutamate and glutamic acid are 2 different things.
One is an acid and the other the conjugate base of it.
Glutamic acid has 2 Hydrogens it can lose.
MSG has 1.
In a basic enough solution it could even lose the other Hydrogen.
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Glutamate linked to suicide? (Score:4, Funny)
How does this account for all the people committing suicide in Finland? There aren't many cheap chinese food places there, but those people kill themselves all the time.
Monosodium? Whatever. Listen, I got an AGENDA to push, so don't get in the way with chemistry. The shit's like alchemy - bad for you.
We live in caves. We speak with our hands.
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Finns in general have an asian genetic admixture. So, their food is chinese :-) . They also culturally drink incredible amounts of coffee. And there are cultural differences, including a stoicism that may lead to people getting less help for emotional issues. But perhaps the biggest issue is:
It's dark there. For much of the winter. People are sensitive to light.
MSG makes you clevererer (Score:1)
Just let me summarize this whole discussion:
1. MSG is brain food.
2. If you eat lots of it you become really smart.
3a. That's why Chinese kids are good at math.
3b. American teens eat it and realize that they are losers, so they become suicidal.
(People in Finland just kill themselves because they are Finns.)
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my father kept his rifle in his high school locker and went shooting after school, as an after school activity! Now a pocket knife invokes a zero-brain policy.
Toy guns and rubber knives apply to the zero-tolerance policies too. One kid got suspended for an Optimus Prime gun (the miniature size for the toy to hold).