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China NASA Space Politics

NASA Banned From Working With China 284

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the who-will-build-the-firewall dept.
astroengine writes "In the wake of the Chinese cyber-threat and claims of espionage, a clause included in the US spending bill approved by Congress to avert a government shutdown a few weeks ago has prohibited NASA from coordinating any joint scientific activity with China. The clause also extends to the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy."
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NASA Banned From Working With China

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  • ha ha ha (Score:2, Insightful)

    by roman_mir (125474) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @08:56AM (#36092606) Homepage Journal

    Yeah, if China was actually interested in hurting USA in one place, it would really hit hard, they'd just stop buying US bonds and also stop rolling over the ones they have already, and never mind NASA, US wouldn't even have money to run its military.

  • by dbIII (701233) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @08:56AM (#36092618)
    This actually hurts NASA more than China, and as NASA gets hurt and sheds jobs where do you think the best are going to go if they want to get paid? I really do not understand why some in politics are trying to replay the end of the cold war and get the USA to play the part of the crumbling USSR.
  • Re:ha ha ha (Score:4, Insightful)

    by antifoidulus (807088) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @08:59AM (#36092642) Homepage Journal
    And the Chinese economy would collapse as the $1.4 trillion of US debt that China currently holds would quickly become worthless. Sort of like ripping off the nose to spite the face.
  • by Haedrian (1676506) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:00AM (#36092656)

    The US already made china the next superpower. It doesn't need to steal US research, it can do everything on its own in probably a more efficient manner.

    This way the US cripples its research, and we'll cut off another reason for the US to exist for this economy.

  • And so (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dunbal (464142) * on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:00AM (#36092660)
    China says: and nothing of value was lost. "See Yu onna moon, sucka!"
  • by CaptainLard (1902452) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:07AM (#36092720)
    The best will go to SpaceX or Boeing. Are you suggesting that Joe Engineer who has worked 20 years at JPL is going to pack up his family and leave the sun beaches and smog of Southern California for the smog and human rights oppression of Beijing?
  • by elrous0 (869638) * on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:07AM (#36092726)

    NASA's "science" has always been heavily politicized. The same sort of thing went on with the Russians back during the Cold War. They even used to coordinate their launches with anniversaries of Soviet space accomplishments just to try to show up the Russkies (they even held the first space shuttle launch back just so they could have it coincide with the 20th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin's first man in space flight). NASA has ALWAYS been more about politics than science. And now China are the new "bad guys."

  • Re:ha ha ha (Score:5, Insightful)

    by roman_mir (125474) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:11AM (#36092778) Homepage Journal

    And the Chinese economy would collapse as the $1.4 trillion of US debt that China currently holds would quickly become worthless. Sort of like ripping off the nose to spite the face.

    - what a huge misunderstanding of economics, that the education systems of the West have perpetrated upon their population. Very sad.

    Chinese economy is not about the cash, the money. Chinese economy is an actual real economy - producing economy.

    You see, when the Keynesian gods tell you that economy is about consumption, they are full of it, completely wrong. Consumption is a trivial consequence of production. If nothing is produced, nothing will be consumed. Production IS economy.

    When USA borrowed money in 19 century, it borrowed the money to build factories and infrastructure, and when it used the money to build, it started producing, and the products it built were then sold to pay off the debts. Today, when USA borrows money, it only uses the money to consume, and it consumes foreign made products.

    Irony is of-course that it borrows money from China and buys the Chinese made products, and the population of USA is convinced by their useless 'economists', who are really charlatans, that the US consumer is the actual engine behind this entire economic activity.

    No. What China needs to do is to let their currency appreciate, so that it becomes cheaper for Chinese to both: buy raw materials (as they are hit hard with price inflation, which in the case of producers follows immediately after the self inflicted money inflation) and it becomes cheaper for the Chinese to buy foreign products and their own manufactured products as well, and China has plenty of potential for consumption, they do have over a billion people after all.

    What is funny, is how Geithner calls China to let their currency appreciate, and it looks like he is just trying to play reverse psychology game (if he understands anything about economics at all), because either US dollar can be strong or Chinese currency can be strong, but they both cannot be strong at the same time.

    If China lets the currency appreciate, it will become nearly impossible for the US consumers to buy Chinese products. That's good for USA in the long run, because USA has to be hit with very high interest rates on their money, Americans need to start saving and creating capital that can be applied for building things again, so that it starts producing again. But in the short term it's going to be disastrous for USA, not for China.

    Sure, China will lose that debt. But it's going to lose that debt ANYWAY!

    Do you think USA can pay that debt back? EVER? :)

    USA doesn't produce anything of any value except for the raw materials, that Chinese would want to buy. USA can NEVER pay the debts back. These particular debts need to be restructured, but instead US Fed will keep printing, and all that useless paper, that ends up in Chinese banks, and causes the Chinese to print their currency as well only is hurting China right now.

    USA has it great as long as other countries keep buying its debt and keep printing their own currencies into oblivion and keep price inflation inside their own economies and don't export it back to US.

    However this will stop. Sure, many manufacturers in China and other exporting nations will cry murder, but they will have to deal with this, as their own currencies appreciate, they will start selling in the country rather than exporting so much. There will be some pain for China as well, but they have the production - which is what matters.

    Do not be mistaken - US debts will never be repaid in anything that's valuable. US can print the dollar and 'repay' in worthless paper, but that's just as much of a default as a real bankruptcy would be.

  • by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve (949321) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:25AM (#36092940)
    I would say that while the US certainly helped make China the next superpower, and unwittingly helped it a lot, we need to give China credit for having leaders able to recognize an opportunity when they saw it and being able to take advantage of it. I'm not in any way suggesting that China is a perfect society though. I know people who live in China who certainly feel that things could be a lot better there in the lives of ordinary people and who feel that the government cares too much about making money.

    US research could certainly be better but China for the most part is in the position of "steal and copy" rather than producing original research. I have to grudgingly admit that costs are probably a lot lower if you just let the US develop it and pay someone to spy and send you the information so you can create a knockoff later.
  • Re:kool aid (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bill_the_Engineer (772575) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:46AM (#36093136)

    You're swallowing his kool aid. The fact is without US technology and US raw materials China would have a LOT less to produce.

    US technology doesn't originate from the US government. It originates from bright individuals that live in the US. They can migrate to other countries, just like they have all their technology mass produced in other countries.

    China is two decades away (at least) from having trees to support its production of lumber, furniture and other such goods, They're also dependant upon western (often american) technology which they essentially clone and sell domestically. They have demonstrated a great ability to produce but little in the way of useful original ideas when it comes to those gadgets and geegaws.

    Lumber is available from Russia. As for technology, you have South Korea, Japan, Great Britain, and Germany to name a few. I think you don't grasp the gravity of the situation.

  • Re:ha ha ha (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TheCRAIGGERS (909877) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:51AM (#36093190)

    You see, when the Keynesian gods tell you that economy is about consumption, they are full of it, completely wrong. Consumption is a trivial consequence of production. If nothing is produced, nothing will be consumed. Production IS economy.

    I'd like to see how well an economy works when nobody buys anything it's producing.

    Currently, China holds power because of the gap between [how cheap they can make a product], and [how much we rich folk will pay for said product]. If we weren't around to buy their stuff, or if we didn't spend an order of magnitude more to buy it than they paid to have it made, their economy as we know it wouldn't exist either.

  • Re:ha ha ha (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @09:59AM (#36093264)

    You realize that China relies on artificial currency manipulation - which it achieves by buying up tons and tons of US dollars, right? How well do you think China's production economy would fare when suddenly its goods are as expensive in Europe and America as European and American goods?

    Without the US dollar, China's economy implodes. That's why they're panicking about QE2; they're terrified the US dollar will weaken.

    PS: Almost all of our debt is from the economic recession and the wars. These are all temporary. Economic growth reduces the debt even if you don't pay on it (ty inflation). And finally, we do have the lowest taxes in more than a half-century. If millionaires have to return to a 90% tax rate, cry me a river.

    Our debt is not a problem, but good job on playing Chicken Little.

  • Re:kool aid (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JosKarith (757063) on Wednesday May 11, 2011 @10:58AM (#36093938)
    "They can migrate to other countries,"
    Up until some bright spark in the legislature realises what's happening and then suddenly people who are deemed to be a National Resource find themselves unable to travel out of the country.
    After all you've already been softened up to the idea of people being on a list that they don't have the right to know if they're on (and asking about it will get you on said list) that means you are basically denied the right of free travel.

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