Scientists' Mouse Fight Club 193
An anonymous reader writes "To study how aggression, fighting, and winning change the brain, scientists set up a tournament of mice fights. They watched as the lab rodents took a break from their hum-drum existence and battled it out (however, the researchers broke the first rule of Fight Club by publishing a paper about their findings [abstract]). They found clear evidence of the 'winner effect,' in which a mouse that has just won a fight maintains elevated levels of testosterone and aggression, and is therefore more likely to win the next bout. Interestingly, the winner effect was strongest in mice that were fighting in their own cages — i.e., those that had home-field advantage."
Men... (Score:5, Interesting)
"How a society channels male aggression is one of the greatest questions as to whether that society will survive. That's why I am not against violence in the media, I am against the glorification of immoral violence."
-- Dennis Prager
Re:Women... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Women... (Score:5, Funny)
Cat Fight!!!
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But more seriously, when people are given the latitude to be aggressive, you'll see a spectrum of responses. Some people can handle power responsibly, others get drunk with it and start thumping people with little provocation or cause. Systems are supposed to be designed such that abusers are culled, but it seems that just as frequently a given system of authority closes ranks and de
Re:Women... (Score:5, Insightful)
Since women appear to manifest aggression in very different ways than men (although increasingly exactly like men as an additional mode) it seems like a very worthwhile to single out the genders. For one thing female aggression largely goes unnoticed (or just plain denied) by society and consequently their victims are usually unnoticed as well.
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If you're talking about some kind of emotional or social aggression, you're simply looking at the momentum from a social adaptation that was natu
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No one said there was. Although you are just making an assertion - one which may or may not be true.
You know you seem to be making a big effort to excuse the violence women commit and perpetuate as not being worth examination. Unfortunately that is not surprising. Like I said society would benefit from taking the blinders off. Violence is only a concern if it is "effective"...? I don't think so. And of course it's men's fault... "learned behaviour from
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Wow, that's sexist.
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I never stated or implied that violence was immoral, I merely stated that claiming violence was a primarily male domain was sexist.
Many proto-russian, pre-historic persian, and celtic women(all cultures who buried women with hand weapons) would disagree with you, if they weren't millennia dead. Not to mention examples of other species where females are more territorial, violent, or aggressive than the males. Insects especially.
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We of course have no history of the abuse of men and children by women because people don't want to look at that. Even the suggestion that it be looked at brings on posts like yours attempting to discourage and - quite evidently -blame men. Oh that darn patriarchy! And by the way being less effective" (another assertion) is not an excuse.
Really? It isn't
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... the upper body strength, the hormonal response, the reflexes, and the combat cunning that a male possesses ...
On /. ??? Seriously? =]
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and it totally ignores that humans are not restricted to using only their limbs for combat. A woman with a baseball bat could beat up most unarmed men rather easily.
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I don't tend to have the same view exactly, but, I have had a small amount of martial arts training (couple of years in a couple of styles, nothing too serious), and so, I have been exposed to women trained to fight, and they are every bit a mans equal when trained (making allowances for size and strength, but those advantages can be somewhat nullified with speed, training, and experience)
That said, I heard a very interesting talk by an old martial arts master (I forget which, one of the japanese schools) i
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However I agree with your assessment. There is no substitute for experience. I think society would be much improved by mandatory military service. It establishes a substrate of common discipline on which to build a self-ordering society. Civilizations that grow to state where most citize
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you're simply looking at the momentum from a social adaptation that was natural for women in a patriarchal society.
Sometimes that bitch from down the street is just a bitch.
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Fighting does not come naturally to men either, it is learned while growing up via altercations. Especially since our education system essentially treats this sort of assault as normal.
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I would propose the theory that women have become more aggressive because they have to in order to protect themselves against not only an aggressive man, but other women. When no one will step in to help, the "weak" (physically less stronger, whether male, female, elderly, etc.) either have to fight or die. Very few people will step in to help someone. They tend to turn their back and say, "Not my problem."
It has within the past decades become OK for girls to not only protect themselves, but become bullies.
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Women have been bullying since the beginning of society [cite not needed to anyone with a clue] it's just that is hasn't usually been physical (or obviously so) until recently. Just ask any girl who ever went to public school, or worked in a primarily female job, was part of any organization comprised mostly of females, or... but yes you are right it has been getting more and more acceptable for females to
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Of course I said "or obviously so"
Thanks for the ad hominem. And ignoring the vast majority of my post to try and distract by fixing on something minor you can try to pick at. As I've said - you're very transparent.
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I never denied that women haven't been bullies or that women haven't been physically violent. Because of society, however, most "bullying" occurred on a more intellectual level vs. physical. Until recently, it wasn't acceptable in society for women to turn to physical violence. I've even seen cases where the parent was egging a daughter on like he would have his son: to stand up and fight. My theory, although I digressed a bit, was that when a group doesn't feel protected or that there is no longer a social
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I've got to wonder about "scientists" who want to watch mice fighting. What scientific value does this have and how is it any different from cock-fighting or dog fights?
Michael Vicks files appeal - "I was only trying to get into Nature your Honor! Those reviewers are tougher than my cellmate bubba."
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I fully support this. Especially if mud is involved.
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Pudding or Jello would be better
Re:Women... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Doesn't that simply show a superior intellect outwitting superior physical strength?
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Doesn't that simply show a superior intellect outwitting superior physical strength?
If the situation truly warranted absolute annihilation of the opponent, sure. But even my wife admits that women can be cruel over petty squabbles. Women seem to have a harder time working out problems (even if men only work them out after a little fighting) and seem to hold grudges for longer. A superior intellect would probably know a little something about picking your battles and the good of social harmony.
Re:Women... (Score:5, Insightful)
In all seriousness, why is this modded as funny? Twenty percent of reported domestic abusers are female, despite the fact that a man is less likely to turn in his wife and that the police are less likely to take the case seriously due to cultural effects. Some studies have even shown that female on male spousal abuse is the more common form, though it is less physically damaging. Mothers abuse children more frequently than fathers, physical confrontations in schools are becoming increasingly perpetrated by females, and all of that says nothing to the more traditional forms of psychological and emotional aggressiveness practiced by many women.
Re:Women... (Score:5, Insightful)
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I will take exception to one of your conclusions. The "Feminist movement" actually does want equality. You forget that not all women are feminists. There are those (I met a few recently who openly admitted this in their own case) who despise feminism because it meant they couldn't be 'pretty little girls' all their lives and had to step up and fend for themselves. These are the women who actively opposed the feminist movement when it first gained steam.
In fact, many modern feminists would agree with your e
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Then that would imply that the feminist movement is as interested in those cases where men are "less equal" than woman as it is in those cases where women are "less equal" than men. Can you give a few examples showing that mainstream feminism actively concerns itself with the former? I mean more than just the occasional book by women like Sommers who, brave though she is for publishing, was then shunned by mainstream feminism?
And IIRC Sommers does quite
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Twenty percent of reported domestic abusers are female
You should have bolded "reported", because as you say, men aren't likely to call the cops when their wife beats the hell out of them; they're ashamed the cops will laugh and call them pussies. Women have no such problems calling the cops.
The "men more more violent than women" is a myth. Hell, there's a bartender at Felber's that put her first husband in the hospital.
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Really? Prager? That dude's logic meter was broken the day he was born.
He's pro-violence in the media because it makes money for his right-wing buddies, just like his pro-religion and pro-right-wing anything does.
Being "against the glorification of immoral violence" is a straw-man, set up to demonize anyone who points out that his idea of "morality" is extremist.
Who is this Pragler idiot? (Score:2)
I had just skimmed over the quote until you commented on it. I missed the immoral part, which is a shame, because that quote is about the most idiotic thing I have ever seen. I mean, really? You are against immoral violence? That is just brilliant.
I will go one step further than this Pragler twit:
"I, for one, am against immoral violence. However, I
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Prager is the pious version of Glenn Beck.
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The same protests, they are just on the other side of the riot shields, or in the crowd dressed as civilians but instigating and agitating so their cop buddies can start busting heads.
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So aggression is fine, as long as femals are doing it... OR females are never aggressive... which one of these false statements were you trying to imply haha? Besides the BS of equating violence and aggression, of course...
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--William Congreve, (paraphrased).
'Nuff said.
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That's a bit sexist, lady. I have a loose tooth right now, and it wasn't a man that knocked it loose. It was a redneck feMALE that hit harder than any man ever hit me (and I was in the military once). In my experience (and I'm no kid), women are far more violent and agressive than men. I like to drink in a redneck bar in the ghetto, so you can understand that there's a bit of violence occasionally, but I've seen far more catfights than men fighting. Women can't seem to contain their anger at all, yet societ
Are you pondering what I'm pondering? (Score:3, Funny)
Isn't this illegal? (Score:4, Funny)
I mean, surely if cockfighting or dogfighting is illegal...
Re:Isn't this illegal? (Score:5, Funny)
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It wouldn't surprise me if it was perfectly legal to stage dog fights or cock fights in the name of science provided you do enough paperwork in advance. It's just the type of people who stage dog fights or cock fights are not the type that to do the paperwork.
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They signed off on this, what is the difference?
I have had both dogs and mice as pets, they seemed equally trainable and intelligent.
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It really depends on what is meant by "fighting." The fight could be similar to high school wrestling matches, or it could be lethal. I'm not well versed in the fighting techniques or habits of mice. The article doesn't go into much detail, and the full text paper is hidden behind a sign in page.
However, cock fights usually result in maiming, and sometimes death. Besides, those are conducted for amusement. Though some may disagree, most would agree it's one thing to harm or kill an animal for a reasona
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Even the full paper isn't much help. They don't go into details on the fights themselves. An excerpt from the methods says:
"[T]he female was removed from the home cage; an opaque divider was inserted into the cage and isolated the focal mouse on one side; an opponent was placed in the cage's opposite side; the mice were given 2 min to acclimate; the divider was removed and the mice were given 10 min to freely interact."
They then go on to talk about "winning experiences" without detail. Presumably they judge
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They then go on to talk about "winning experiences" without detail.
Maybe they were just playing checkers. Jus' sayin' ...
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I'm not well versed in the fighting techniques [...] of mice.
Potentially the greatest famous last words ever.
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I have kept mice, they will kill each other. I have seen this both introducing new female mice to another and brother mice left in the same cage too long.
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I mean, surely if cockfighting or dogfighting is illegal...
I don't think so. Its more that the laws involved in making cockfighting and dogfighting are illegal is because it names the animals in particular. And since those laws don't say anything about mice then the law can't touch it. In fact, according to a Google and Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] cockfighting has only been illegal in every state since 2007. This might be considered inhumane to allow it to happen but considering what other 'uses' lab rats have, I don't think this was much of a legal stretch. In the end, is this mora
Where can I buy mice in bulk? (Score:5, Funny)
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And then you'd catch myxomatosis and be hyper-aggressive for months.
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So your going to make a bunch of mice fight each other to create testosterone then eat the mice? The steroid market is a very weird place...
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With really is a tragedy, people feed a self aware to some extant mammal that would make a loving pet to a creature that would not notice if you died tomorrow.
Imagine that - defending the home is a motivator. (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder what the difference in this "winner effect" is when the defend-my-own-home motivation is absent?
Re:Imagine that - defending the home is a motivato (Score:4, Informative)
Rage Virus (Score:3, Funny)
Mickey vs. Mighty (Score:5, Funny)
I know I'm not supposed to talk about it, but I once saw Mickey take on Mighty. Now, I put my money on Mighty. But, the bout was at Disney World. Mickey won in less than a minute. Then, all hopped up on testosterone, he basically took Jerry's head off in the next match.
I have seen stuff man. I was there. I have memories. Bad, bad memories.
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I'm not surprised. I heard he killed seven in one blow.
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My money's on Danger.
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Well, what do you expect? Mighty was stoned. [wikipedia.org]
the romans did this with prisoners / gladiators so (Score:3, Funny)
the romans did this with prisoners / gladiators so why do we need to do this now with Mouses?
Re:the romans did this with prisoners / gladiators (Score:4, Funny)
Because the Romans weren't conducting a controlled scientific experiment? Because the Romans didn't write down their findings, nor were they attempting to answer a scientific question to begin with? Because what we know about gladiator fights is limited and uncertain?
I can't think of an analogy for how stupid this is; that's how stupid it is.
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!Correlation = Causation (Score:3, Interesting)
The results of this seem a little confounded to me. They "paired favored mice with the weaker...". Didn't they just introduce a bias?
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Don King??? (Score:3, Funny)
So, these mice basically got a false sense of confidence that might have gotten themselves a boost, and managed to avoid better fighters in the process.
But, if the fights hadn't been fixed, they would have lost handily to the, er, undermouse.
Definitely sounds like real boxing to me. :-P Wake me up when one mouse wins by tap-out.
Did they really break the rule? (Score:2)
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I dunno... How many mice can you take on at once?
Kung Zhu? (Score:2)
Or more like the Hamster Fighting Machine poster?
I hate PITA however... (Score:2)
This seems unnecessarily cruel and unethical.
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Well, that just sounds like sour dough to me. I don't see any way they could have performed this experiment any more ethically. I mean I don't want to seem rye, but understanding how mice brains work, which gives us a little knowledge of how our own brains work, is hugely valuable to humans and is worth a little cruelty (as little as necessary mind you).
P.S. Have you tried it with falafel?
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PETA = People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (or People Eating Tasty Animals)
Yes, some people consider PETA to be a PITA.
Why abuse mice, humans would volunteer (Score:2, Insightful)
Mouse VS Eagle! (Score:2)
Re:Second Rule? (Score:5, Funny)
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Considering they will tear each other apart I really see nothing funny about it. You probably should seek mental help, many serial killers started out torturing animals for amusement.
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You should seek mental health. Many people who lived to be miserable and grumpy started out by not having a sense of humor.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Funny)
How did they get them to fight?
The tricky part was getting the little gloves and silk shorts on them.
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They are animals, provoked enough and the Fight or Flight response will kick in. With no where to turn in a small box though, a fight is most likely to happen. Also, mice are territorial animals. To quote this link: [animalcorner.co.uk]
Mouse Behaviour In Captivity:... Mice in the wild are very territorial.... Although male mice will behave sociable towards female mice, they can be unsociable towards other male mice where territory is concerned. Like a majority of male animals, the male mouse will protect his territory and guard it well, chasing off any other male mouse intruders. ... Male mice show their natural territorial behaviour also in captivity. It is not wise to keep males together.
This might also explain why they used male mice.
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Tyler Durden was the only one *not* in Fight Club... He didn't exist, after all.
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What planet do you live on, and can I move there?
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-lipstickcovered-rat
Shouldn't that be a pig?