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Power Science

Laser Fusion Passes Major Hurdle 354

chill writes "The National Ignition Facility at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has performed their first controlled fusion experiments using all 192 lasers. While still not ramped up to full power, the first experiments proved very fruitful. The lasers create a lot of plasma in the target container and researchers worried that the plasma would interfere with the ability of the target to absorb enough energy to ignite. These experiments show that not only does enough energy make it through, the plasma can be manipulated to increase the uniformity of compression. Ramping up of power is due to start in May." The project lead, Dr. Sigfried Glenzer, is "confident that with everything in place, ignition is on the horizon. He added, quite simply, 'It's going to happen this year.'"
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Laser Fusion Passes Major Hurdle

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  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lord Byron Eee PC ( 1579911 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @10:51AM (#30949280)
    Clean, safe, American-made, no foreign oil, low level of pollutants, and a reasonable amount of entropy (heat) released. Sounds like a winner to me.
  • Terminology ? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 29, 2010 @10:53AM (#30949322)
    What does "ignition" mean for the energy gain of this type of fusion? Is this going to be worthwhile enough to overcome the inherent difficulties of this approach? Right now, inertial confinement seems to be suited for one-off events but not for sustained power generation since the fuel pellet will need to be lined up nearly perfectly for the lasers to not just blow it apart. Is "ignition" going to produce enough energy to make all this setup worthwhile in anything but an experimental sense?
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @10:54AM (#30949330)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • but its low powered and has quick half-lives. additionally, there are no geopolitical overtones concerning fuel sources: you just need sea water. no climate changing pollution/ city-choking smog for that matter. no peak oil this or that, no bubbles and spikes in supply or pricing

    additionally, if everyone had electric cars, there would be no petrodollars funding saudi arabia, a backwards fundamentalist regime that funds wahhabi madrassas in places like pakistan, that give rise to all of these well-funded (from saudi "charities") militant assholes in the muslim world

    no funding of gas bag chavez in venezuela, no funding of neoimperial russia and putin, no funding for nigerian graft and corruption...

    it will take a long time, but if we can remove the reason for the world to have any vested interests in backwards regimes, propping them up and preserving them unnaturally, and we instead let these regimes instead rise and fall on their own intrinsic value in governing fair societies, then we will have taken a mighty step forward in terms of progress in this world

    of course, it will be decades before we're all driving electric cars powered by fusion plants. but one can dream, cant' they?

  • by pavon ( 30274 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @11:10AM (#30949554)

    The 15 to 20 years estimate is always for energy-positive, viable power plant. The one year date is just when this particular device will be fully operational. There are already many operational fusion devices that exist for research, and this adds another that may or may not give us a breakthrough.

  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ElSupreme ( 1217088 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @11:16AM (#30949616)
    What is wrong with a pay off in decades. This "profit now" attitude is going to kill America. You think the interstate system paid off sooner than decades? You think the interstate system was a failure?
  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by delinear ( 991444 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @11:22AM (#30949720)
    What's really scary, being a kid at the time the movies came out, is that pretty soon the "future" they visit in the second movie will be our past (we're only five years away)...
  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by amplt1337 ( 707922 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @11:28AM (#30949800) Journal

    You think the interstate system was a failure?
    Well... given that the existence of the interstate infrastructure created the incentives that destroyed the locomotive as the main means of in-land shipping in America, and in other ways promoted the reliance on the automobile that's ended public transit in most areas and greatly exacerbated global warming... possibly yes. : p

    But I think the parent's point was actually the same as yours -- cynicism about Everybody Else's willingness to do something that'll have a profit after the next quarterly earnings report.

  • Re:So... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by delinear ( 991444 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @11:29AM (#30949826)
    There's nothing wrong with a pay off in decades other than it will effectively kill off the investment that's required now. The governments and heads of corporations don't want to feather someone else's nest, so they'll constantly make short term decisions. I really wish we could have political parties who looked to the future good of our countries instead of their short term political survival, but experience seems to indicate otherwise. They'll rarely decide to potentially gift their rivals 30 years in the future with incredibly cheap, clean fuel. It's part of the reason we don't have an abundance of nuclear reactors today (and also partly due to the green/Simpsons effects, oh and that explody thing that happened in Chernobyl). Hopefully the big fuel companies will be shifting more investment into these technologies if they want to avoid being redundant when oil is too expensive to obtain.
  • by plague911 ( 1292006 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @11:55AM (#30950226)
    "Laser mechanisms have a longer way to go in order to be credible fusion power plants." ... They all do... As someone who has done some work with tokamaks sure we should be able to break even with energy. But honestly people have no idea when they would break even financially with other tech... If ever.
  • by Dr_Barnowl ( 709838 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:00PM (#30950306)

    And can it sustain power generation?

    You're talking about zapping a very small, supercooled, gold-uranium alloy target with a beryllium sphere containing about 1mg of DT fuel, about 10 times a second.

    Have a thought experiment about the engineering involved

    • Producing the "ammunition" - bear in mind that tritium is one of the rarest and most expensive substances on earth[1]
    • Positioning it and aligning it - ten times a second
    • Charging and firing the most powerful laser array on earth - ten times a second
    • Somehow removing the heat from the reactor vessel without impeding the laser paths

    what quantity of nuclear waste will such a machine produce?

    DT fusion produces fast neutrons, so some. You're looking at much shorter half-lives ; the reactor core will have the same activity as coal ash after about 300 years.

    And will ITER be quickly refactored to take this into account?

    ITER is a totally different design, so no. I think ITER is a far more credible design than laser-fusion, given that the engineering challenges seem some orders of magnitude easier.

    NIF is just a testbed for nuclear fusion, without the inconveniently illegal use of real nuclear weapons.

    [1]

    If you're firing at 1mg of fuel, by mass, 3/5 of it is Tritium or 0.6mg so (60 * 60 * 24) seconds in day * 10 per second * 0.0006 g = 518.4 g of tritium per day.

    The total production in the USA between 1955 and 1996 was 225kg ; the stockpile in 1996 stood at 75kg

  • by pauljlucas ( 529435 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:10PM (#30950460) Homepage Journal

    By definition, when they achieve ignition - there will be a self sustained, fusion reaction - the fusion reaction will sustain itself until its fuel is exhausted.

    AFAIK, this method of fusion is not nor will ever be self-sustained -- it simply doesn't work that way. You have to repeatedly fire the laser, once per fuel pellet. Once the pellet ignites, energy is released. After it's released, the pellet is exhausted. To release more energy, you have to insert a new pellet and repeat. It's not like there's a lot of fuel at the focus of the lasers that just needs one firing to ignite the fuel and it will chain-react. The only way to have a chain-reaction sustain itself with no input of energy would be to have the fuel at the high pressure and high temperature that's found at the core of a star. The laser temporarily creates a tiny spot of such pressure and temperature, but there's no way the reaction can sustain itself without repeated firing of the lasers.

  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HeckRuler ( 1369601 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:19PM (#30950596)
    Don't worry, as soon as anything explodes, someone dies, or they find a "scientist" who can worry and fret, Foxnews will point out how Obama's DOE is funding crazy apocalypse engines.
  • Re:So... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by compro01 ( 777531 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:29PM (#30950766)

    They can still fight over the rare earth elements you need to build stuff like this.

    </pessimist>

  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rhsanborn ( 773855 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:31PM (#30950816)
    Unfortunately, we need a populace that is capable of looking to the future as well. Without that, we'll never get the political structure you're describing. People don't vote for politicians who spend money on long term projects.
  • Re:So... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by allcaps ( 1617499 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:31PM (#30950818)
    Obama didn't 'inherit' anything; he was a senator for some time before becoming president, and voted for plenty of the things that led to the current problems.
  • by pauljlucas ( 529435 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:39PM (#30950948) Homepage Journal
    What most people know about nuclear energy is that it's "bad" and can release radiation in the case of a melt-down. Most people don't know that there are two flavors of reaction. They also don't know that it's impossible for fusion induced by laser ignition to chain-react on the macro scale and cause a melt-down.
  • Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by vtcodger ( 957785 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @12:54PM (#30951204)

    ***Don't you think that companies like BP and such will embrace this to make oil cheaper ? Oil is not just used for energy, there are other major uses :***

    By the time this results in practical generation facilities, oil will almost certainly be both scarce compared to the number of people that "need" (i.e. want) it and expensive.

    BP, Esso, et al know that. Unlike our politicians, auto makers, economists and planners, the oil companies deal in long term realities. Probably BP will own large chunks of the engineering, construction, operating and distribution companies that handle fusion power. ... assuming that fusion power ever turns out to be commercially viable.

    I'm fine with that BTW. All I really want to see is enough rational conduct in the system to ensure stability.

  • Re:So... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by GNUALMAFUERTE ( 697061 ) <almafuerte@@@gmail...com> on Friday January 29, 2010 @01:13PM (#30951546)

    There is really no such thing as a metric mile. What was once the "one mile" race (~1.6km) was turned into a 1500m race for the Olympics. And some stupid bitches that can't speak properly call it the "metric mile". There is no suck thing as a metric mile. There's a proper name for that: 1.5km.

  • by catchblue22 ( 1004569 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @01:48PM (#30952160) Homepage

    No, it killed passenger trains.

    Yes, the interstate highway system did kill trains, especially the interurban trains surrounding urban areas. But that isn't the point. The building of the interstate system, a massive government project, succeeded in reaching its goal of allowing the utilization of vast swaths of under-utilized land, allowing commensurate increases in economic capacity. This was the real goal of pushing automobile transportation. Unfortunately, implicit in this goal was a massive surge in urban sprawl, pollution, and most importantly a huge surge in the production of greenhouse gasses.

    I am arguing here that the assumption that government programs always fail and are almost always fundamentally flawed is incorrect, and is not born out by historical evidence. Government CAN achieve constructive goals in society, IF those in government are wise rulers.

  • Re:So... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Lord Byron Eee PC ( 1579911 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @02:40PM (#30952954)

    Your comment + your signature gave me a laugh.

    It's perfect! It's a fact that we're going 88mph. No wait, it's just an interpretation!

  • by TheTurtlesMoves ( 1442727 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @02:48PM (#30953068)

    The line of "getting more power out than we put in" for fusion in the lab was crossed decades ago..

    Care to back that up. Other than nuclear bombs, there is no fusion device that has achieved ignition (which is not the same as getting more power out than you put in) that i am aware of, and i keep up with the field.

    Ignition can be described as fusion energy output is higher than losses from the plasma.

  • by Chirs ( 87576 ) on Friday January 29, 2010 @03:57PM (#30953938)

    The point of a "self-sustained" laser fusion device is that it produces more power from each fusion blast than is needed to power the lasers.

    The idea is that each fusion blast produces enough energy to fire the lasers for the next blast, plus some additional amount that can be used to do useful work.

    Sure, it takes a constant stream of pellets as input, but a fission reactor uses fuel rods the same wayl.

  • Re:So... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 29, 2010 @04:09PM (#30954102)

    And those of us smart enough to realize that language suffers when idiots dumb it down, will continue to resist changes made by morons.

"Experience has proved that some people indeed know everything." -- Russell Baker

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