Just curious, but why do they only smash protons and not neutrons? Is it because the proton has a charge and thus can be flung around by the magnets? I mean if they are looking for elusive particles like the Higgs, I would think it would more likely be held inside a neutron rather than a proton.
For a guy with planck in his name you really need to read up on particle physics A neutron is udd, a proton is uud. Nothing special there, one is magnetic though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics [wikipedia.org]
Thanks ok so if the only difference is one is udd and the other is uud, then the "mass" in each is the same I suppose. And each would contain roughly the same exotic particles as the other. Maybe I'm just caught up in the god particle frenzy. I should stick to trying to understand string theory instead.
Because we can control protons (and other charged particles) with electric/magnetic fields. We don't have a way to steer (and accelerate) neutrons (well, there are neat little tricks, but none of them are as powerful).
so if the only difference is one is udd and the other is uud, then the "mass" in each is the same I suppose.
Very nearly. The mass of the proton is 938 MeV; the neutron is 939 MeV. And the physics at a proton-neutron or neutron-neutron collider would be very similar to that at a proton-proton collider. But neutrons are neutral, as you and others have pointed out, and therefore much more difficult to accelerate.
Now you could imagine a collider with a stationary neutron target and a high-energy proton beam. But remember that what you get out depends on the energy as measured in the center-of-mass frame of the colliding particles. To reach the LHC design energy of 14 TeV, you can collide two protons, each with an energy of 7 TeV in the lab frame, or you can collide a neutron at rest and a proton with an energy of... excuse me while I dig out my TI-85... 104 PeV. Holy cow. I don't think anyone here has any idea how to get a 100-PeV beam in a working collider experiment, and I'm sure we don't have the money. So protons it is.
And each would contain roughly the same exotic particles as the other.
I think there's a misconception here. Protons (and neutrons) don't "contain" Higgs bosons, or W and Z bosons, or top quarks, or high-pT jets, or any of the other interesting things that we see at the Tevatron and will see at the LHC. These things are created from the kinetic energy of the two colliding protons. But otherwise yes, if you could find a way to build a neutron collider, you'd see pretty much the same stuff as at a proton collider of the same energy.
Oh, and I must rant:
Please don't call it the "God particle". This unfortunate nickname was coined as a marketing ploy and is not apt. Physicists do not call it the God particle. Reporters call it the God particle. And the main result is that people become confused, frightened, or angry.
I'm tempted to point out that if you're interested in a theory describing the universe we happen to live in, the Higgs boson is far more likely to be relevant than string theory. But maybe I should leave that discussion for another thread.
They still have many engineering challenges to complete before the LHC can start looking for the Higgs Boson.
Assuming it exists. After all, this is an experiment designed to determine the accurace of a theory, not to confirm it.
Of course, I believe they'll find it. My wife goes to 'mass' every weekend; I'm assuming that's where Higgs particles come from? I wouldn't know, as I haven't gone. You could describe me as 'massless'.:)
I prefer the hypothesis that some greater being is actively trying to sabotage the collider for our own protection. I know it is completely unscientific, and probably complete rubbish.
Personally I hope the LHC gets up to full power and running at the latest by the end of 2011, so I can sigh and say "Whatever, wasn't the world supposed to end last year too when the LHC went online? This is getting ridiculous..." If they are delayed into 2012, the conspiracy nuts will align and we'll never hear the end of it (until 2013 anyway).
Umm well kind of, its an experiment to confirm the existence of the higgs if it does exist and to probe the physics of electroweak symmetry breaking (i.e find whatever else is causing the higgs mechanism) if it doesn't. I mean determining that the existence of a higgs particle is an accurate theory is the same as determining its existence give or take some philisophical arguments about existance.
Scientists around the world cheered triumphantly learning their efforts weren't in vain as they found the elusive 'G-d' particle. Or so they thought. Early this morning a lab technician noticed a flaw in the work, having double and triple checked it seems the ticker tape parades need be canceled. The particle they found was in fact a HiggsBison particle which is of no redeeming value. We have M. Bison here now.
April O'Neil: How does it feel disappointing so many people around there world? And
Science confirms stuff all the time. Any theory claiming that claims the existance of X can be confirmed by finding X. When a scientist duplicates an experiment and obtains the same results, they are confirming the experiment.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Friday November 20, @04:46PM (#30177944)
I was planning on getting really drunk on December 20th 2012, but maybe I'll get drunk tonight because obviously the earth will disappear tomorrow at 0600GMT
Oh, don't be ridiculous, everyone knows the blackhole is so small it's going to take at least a few weeks to devour the Earth. Might even be months, so better take care of those bills too.
Won't you all have egg on your faces when the LHC opens the Abyss from Revelations and the Beast and false prophet are able to materialize on the Earth for the first time in ages? The Nephilim from the Old Testament have been psychically manipulating the power elites of Earth in order to secure funding for this demonic Stargate. Source: Satan's Star Gate [youtube.com]
I love all these romantic theories about alien or demonic invasion. Sadly, I think that neither that will happen nor will any new particles be discovered. RE: The Tao of Physics - we find what we're looking for in the act of looking for it. Or to paraphrase Eris - the more attention I pay to the number five the more places I see it!!
this time around. I have a physics prof who's part of the project. Part of our lecture on superconductivity was dedicated to the catastrophic malfunction. There's nothing that conveys the epic nature of the failure like technical language.
According to my professor, they were in too much of a rush to get the thing started they didn't fully test the whole thing. One of the superconducting junctions quenched (transitioned from superconductive to non-superconductive states due to the 7-8 Tesla magnetic field), necessitating the dispersal of IIRC 1500 A of current. This turned insulating copper into plasma which breached the chamber wall and caused the explosive vaporization of 2 tons of liquid helium into the accelerating chamber.
Long story short, it's a very large, complicated, and expensive machine. They'd better sure everything works this time.
Where can I buy a Delorean they are hard to find nowadays? I'm working on the flux gapacitor. I'm adding Nitro to the car so I can go 88 mph in no time and the source of the 1.21 gigawatts is easy for me to get. Its just that darn Delorean. I don't think my Honda Civic will work. Screw it, I'm going to steal a Ferrari.
Due to the laws of quantum physics, we will continue to exist in a time line that doesn't see destruction. I am happy to be safe. Now the other branched realities, they are so screwed!
PROTON CANNON! (Score:2, Funny)
well... at least no killer blackholes were sent across the circumference, that's a good thing right?
Re:PROTON CANNON! (Score:4, Informative)
well... at least no killer blackholes were sent across the circumference, that's a good thing right?
No... but there was a resonance cascade failure.
Parent
Still alive. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Still alive. (Score:5, Funny)
We're doing science and we're still alive.
Is that the headcrab typing?
Parent
Re:why protons and not neutrons? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:why protons and not neutrons? (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Because we can control protons (and other charged particles) with electric/magnetic fields. We don't have a way to steer (and accelerate) neutrons (well, there are neat little tricks, but none of them are as powerful).
Re:why protons and not neutrons? (Score:5, Informative)
so if the only difference is one is udd and the other is uud, then the "mass" in each is the same I suppose.
Very nearly. The mass of the proton is 938 MeV; the neutron is 939 MeV. And the physics at a proton-neutron or neutron-neutron collider would be very similar to that at a proton-proton collider. But neutrons are neutral, as you and others have pointed out, and therefore much more difficult to accelerate.
Now you could imagine a collider with a stationary neutron target and a high-energy proton beam. But remember that what you get out depends on the energy as measured in the center-of-mass frame of the colliding particles. To reach the LHC design energy of 14 TeV, you can collide two protons, each with an energy of 7 TeV in the lab frame, or you can collide a neutron at rest and a proton with an energy of ... excuse me while I dig out my TI-85 ... 104 PeV. Holy cow. I don't think anyone here has any idea how to get a 100-PeV beam in a working collider experiment, and I'm sure we don't have the money. So protons it is.
And each would contain roughly the same exotic particles as the other.
I think there's a misconception here. Protons (and neutrons) don't "contain" Higgs bosons, or W and Z bosons, or top quarks, or high-pT jets, or any of the other interesting things that we see at the Tevatron and will see at the LHC. These things are created from the kinetic energy of the two colliding protons. But otherwise yes, if you could find a way to build a neutron collider, you'd see pretty much the same stuff as at a proton collider of the same energy.
Oh, and I must rant:
Please don't call it the "God particle". This unfortunate nickname was coined as a marketing ploy and is not apt. Physicists do not call it the God particle. Reporters call it the God particle. And the main result is that people become confused, frightened, or angry.
I'm tempted to point out that if you're interested in a theory describing the universe we happen to live in, the Higgs boson is far more likely to be relevant than string theory. But maybe I should leave that discussion for another thread.
Parent
Beam me up Scotty! (Score:2)
Oh, wait, wrong show (or was that a LHC around the disc of the Enterprise??!?)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
quark smashing across the LHC
on the LEP collider looking for the higgs
quark smashing across the LHC
only smashing protons cos we cant find bosons
theres ATLAS and the CMS, ALICE and LHCb
looking for dark matter and super symmetry
quark smashing across the LHC
on the LEP collider looking for the higgs
quark smashing across the LHC
only smashing protons cos we cant find bosons
theres gluons on the starboard bow but no signs of dark energy
fundamental forces and its link to weak gravity
quark smashing across the LHC
on t
Re: (Score:2)
Remember, this is only ONE hurdle to clear... (Score:5, Funny)
Assuming it exists. After all, this is an experiment designed to determine the accurace of a theory, not to confirm it.
Of course, I believe they'll find it. My wife goes to 'mass' every weekend; I'm assuming that's where Higgs particles come from? I wouldn't know, as I haven't gone. You could describe me as 'massless'. :)
Re:Remember, this is only ONE hurdle to clear... (Score:5, Interesting)
I prefer the hypothesis that some greater being is actively trying to sabotage the collider for our own protection. I know it is completely unscientific, and probably complete rubbish.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally I hope the LHC gets up to full power and running at the latest by the end of 2011, so I can sigh and say "Whatever, wasn't the world supposed to end last year too when the LHC went online? This is getting ridiculous..." If they are delayed into 2012, the conspiracy nuts will align and we'll never hear the end of it (until 2013 anyway).
Re: (Score:2)
Well that's a relief! (Score:3, Funny)
They still have many engineering challenges to complete before the LHC can start looking for the Higgs Boson.
Well, that's a big relief! Wait... Boson? Oh. Never mind.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
No. (Score:2, Funny)
If you disagree, feel free to mod me up!
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Scientists think that the God particle creates mass. But actually it's the priest particles who are responsible for the mass.
The joke explained. (Score:2)
I don't quite get it, though.
Here you go. [lmgtfy.com]
:)
Sorry -- couldn't resist
Re: (Score:2)
Since when could science confirm anything?
Since late last Thursday, around noon time....
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Remember, this is only ONE hurdle to clear... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
'Pew Pew' noises uttered by people with PHDs (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
That or: "Bwwwwoooooooowwwwwww"
Thanks for the warning (Score:3, Funny)
I was planning on getting really drunk on December 20th 2012, but maybe I'll get drunk tonight because obviously the earth will disappear tomorrow at 0600GMT
Re:Thanks for the warning (Score:5, Funny)
You're planning on *not* getting really drunk for 3 more years? That's gotta be a killer party you're planning.
I plan on getting really drunk as soon as I can get myself to the corner liquor store (and home safely).
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
you mind swinging by my office on your way?
Engineers do not yet have a stable circulating (Score:3, Funny)
Engineers do not yet have a stable circulating beam but they hope to byNO UNIVERSE
Real-time Updates (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Also more real-time technical details
http://op-webtools.web.cern.ch/op-webtools/vistar/vistars.php?usr=LHC1
Circulating beam captured (Score:2)
CERN reported that "We have captured it! First circulating beam of 2009!" [twitter.com] at 21:02 today.
Crap, I was going to go see a movie on Monday (Score:2)
I *was* going to go see a movie on Monday, but since we're all going to be sucked into a black hole of oblivion, that plan is out the window.
On a positive note, I don't have to worry about those credit card bills now.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, don't be ridiculous, everyone knows the blackhole is so small it's going to take at least a few weeks to devour the Earth. Might even be months, so better take care of those bills too.
Re: (Score:2)
If the LHC doesn't kill us now, the Sun will eventually devour the earth anyway in a few million years. Paying those bills does seem pretty pointless.
end of the world special (Score:4, Funny)
I love all these romantic theories about alien or demonic invasion. Sadly, I think that neither that will happen nor will any new particles be discovered. RE: The Tao of Physics - we find what we're looking for in the act of looking for it. Or to paraphrase Eris - the more attention I pay to the number five the more places I see it!!
Hopefully they're more careful (Score:5, Interesting)
this time around. I have a physics prof who's part of the project. Part of our lecture on superconductivity was dedicated to the catastrophic malfunction. There's nothing that conveys the epic nature of the failure like technical language.
According to my professor, they were in too much of a rush to get the thing started they didn't fully test the whole thing. One of the superconducting junctions quenched (transitioned from superconductive to non-superconductive states due to the 7-8 Tesla magnetic field), necessitating the dispersal of IIRC 1500 A of current. This turned insulating copper into plasma which breached the chamber wall and caused the explosive vaporization of 2 tons of liquid helium into the accelerating chamber.
Long story short, it's a very large, complicated, and expensive machine. They'd better sure everything works this time.
Just in case (Score:3, Funny)
Where can I buy a Delorean they are hard to find nowadays? I'm working on the flux gapacitor. I'm adding Nitro to the car so I can go 88 mph in no time and the source of the 1.21 gigawatts is easy for me to get. Its just that darn Delorean. I don't think my Honda Civic will work. Screw it, I'm going to steal a Ferrari.
Re: (Score:2)
when I was a kid, we used to call them flux condensers, and gosh darn it was quite the challenge to get a studebaker up to 88 cubits per centon.
Awesome! (Score:3, Interesting)
A picture from LHC (Score:3, Funny)
Well, they were successful, here's a picture:
http://fox.nncdn.com/nn/0/142/729/324435.jpg [nncdn.com]
No problems whatsoever.
Re:A picture from LHC (Score:5, Funny)
Ha ha, funny guy.
They've set up some webcams so you can watch what's going on at the LHC for yourself.
http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html [cyriak.co.uk]
Parent
Has the Large Hadron Collider? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Due to the laws of quantum physics, we will continue to exist in a time line that doesn't see destruction. I am happy to be safe. Now the other branched realities, they are so screwed!
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know you well enough to answer that question, I'm afraid.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Go ahead, ask the question [hasthelhcd...eearth.com].