Why a High IQ Doesn't Mean You're Smart 808
D1gital_Prob3 writes "How can a 'smart' person act foolishly? Keith Stanovich, professor of human development and applied psychology at the University of Toronto, Canada, has grappled with this apparent incongruity for 15 years. He says it applies to more people than you might think. To Stanovich, however, there is nothing incongruous about it. IQ tests are very good at measuring certain mental faculties, he says, including logic, abstract reasoning, learning ability and working-memory capacity — how much information you can hold in mind."
I knew this 25 years ago... (Score:5, Insightful)
When the GM at my first AD&D game explained the difference between INT and WIS....
Apples & Oranges (Score:5, Insightful)
That's because IQ isn't everything. (Score:4, Insightful)
For some reason, people have associated high IQs with knowing a lot about everything. Unfortunately, knowledge and IQ is different, as is wisdom and IQ. Sheesh, first year D&D players can tell you this.
Corollary: just because you're smart and know a lot about one subject doesn't mean you're opinion on another subject matters. I'm always astounded by how many smart developers think that because they know ASP inside out that they also know which economic system is better.
GiGo (Score:5, Insightful)
One of my favorite quotes... (Score:5, Insightful)
IQ is not the same as EQ (Score:5, Insightful)
IQ measures raw mental abilities. It's a bit like measuring raw CPU power and memory in a computer.
EQ (Emotional Quotient) measures things like self-motivation abilities (including things like optimism), self-control and inter-personal abilities. They're a bit like measuring the quality of the software that runs in a computer and how well it works together with other programs in the network.
[Sorry, no car metaphors]
In real life, even though a large IQ will allow you to solve incredibly complex problems, if you have a low EQ, you might actually be incapable of doing so because, for example:
In the end, a high EQ is much more highly correlated with success than a high IQ.
Simply put, being optimistic means you're more willing to take chances (which might eventually result in a big payout), being self-motivated means that you can keep going even when things are though, having self-control means you can deny yourself a small reward now for a much bigger one later and being good with people means you can more easily find the chances and convince others to work with you.
That said, the good news is that one can change one's own EQ over one's life - most of its component are behavioral traits that can be learned.
Re:I say this with some knowledge on the matter (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds more like poor organization skills and probably a bad work ethic. This is not evidence of stupidity. My IQ is in the top 0.1%. Yet until mid-20's, I was lazy as hell. Once I turned that around, life has become very easy. If I had to choose between IQ and work ethic, the work ethic would win out every time.
Re:It reminds me of the old saying (Score:3, Insightful)
"Street stupid" is a cop-out, and common sense has been proven again and again by psychologists to be a very poor decision making tool.
Instead, look at a high IQ as just one of the MANY factors that motivate a person's behavior. Emotions like love, greed and envy, self-esteem, past experiences both good and bad, and rational thought are all factored into the decisions we make every day. So a person can have boatloads of intelligence but is so greedy they fall for a 419 scam, financially ruining themselves. Or they're in love enough to stay in an unhealthy relationship and have a stroke from the stress. Or their self-esteem is so much in the gutter that they compulsively buy shit on QVC and eventually file for bankruptcy.
Re:This is news? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not news that it's the case. The article isn't "A High IQ Doesn't Mean You're Smart", it's "Why a High IQ Doesn't Mean You're Smart".
This is research into explaining the disparity, not proving or demonstrating that it exists.
Re:This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)
Mensa and testing agencies have been making it clear for a couple decades now that IQ only measures your ability to take tests.
Some people have even argued that IQ tests are to some degree cultural [gladwell.com]. But yeah, for one thing, taking tests is a skill in itself. There's usually a certain logic to the answers in multiple choice tests, for example, and knowing that logic can allow you to make good guesses even if you have no idea what the answer is. Essay questions are harder to fake, but a lot of times it boils down to giving the answer that the person who's evaluating the answer wants to hear. If you give a very intelligent answer that the teacher or TA hates, it's going to get marked wrong.
So there's such a thing as general test-taking ability, and then individual tests have their own skills. You can study for the SATs, and you can even study for a given model of IQ test.
But let's even assume you've successfully tested a person's "intelligence" in the sense of their memory, spacial sense, raw ability to crunch numbers, etc. That still doesn't account for their experience in a given situation, their moral judgement, or any number of other cognitive skills. You might have the highest IQ in the world and be great at understanding a math proof, but if my car breaks down I'm still going to trust a mechanic's judgement on what's broken before I trust yours. The mechanic will have more knowledge and experience about the particular subject matter. Likewise, I might not trust some half-autistic genius's advice on interpersonal relationships even if he's a brilliant physicist.
A quick and accurate intelligence test (Score:4, Insightful)
I read about this recently, tried it with several of my coworkers, and it really works. Simply lift your keyboard over your head while defocusing your eyes so the G and H keys overlap.
What do you see there?
Re:INT vs WIS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is news? (Score:4, Insightful)
No need to insult the superior people just because you were rejected...
It's annoying how Mensa people feel such a strong need to defend themselves against even the smallest accusations of Mensa not being all it's cracked up to be. (I am assuming you are in Mensa since you seem to be defending it for personal reasons.) It's kind of ugly to attack someone like that, and assume they are even interested in joining Mensa, while at the same time referring to yourself as "superior." This is the second time in the last week or so that I have seen such a reaction.
Re:How can a "smart" person act foolishly? (Score:1, Insightful)
Jagermeister is absolutely horrible.
Re:That's because IQ isn't everything. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I knew this 25 years ago... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wisdom is "applied" knowledge. You can't be wise without some amount of knowledge.
But you can be wise without understanding (or being able to understand) complex math, abstractions, etc.
Re:major difference (Score:3, Insightful)
and yet for all that you left out what is arguably the most important, wisdom, which again is none of the above.
Re:419 Scams (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember some comment here on Slashdot a while back (I foget who it was or what the story was about) where somebody was complaining that, as a person in the 99th intelligence percentile, it was simply impossible to be friends with people of mediocre intelligence. The comment struck me as amazingly arrogant and short-sighted. I didn't say anything at the time, but I thought exactly what you are saying. This guy's problem, in my not-so-humble opinion, was that he was letting his score on an IQ test define himself and his potential friends. As long as people who score well on IQ tests go around wearing it like a badge and looking down on everybody else, they are going to be outcasts, because even if you don't say it out loud, people will pick up on it, and then they don't want to be around you. Nobody wants to hang out with the guy who's always subtly reminding everybody of how smart he is. At that point, it's the natural human reaction to soothe your ego by thinking "average people just can't handle being around smart people like me. They're jealous of my vast intelligence." But it's just not true. I have plenty of friends who would probably score lower than I would on an IQ test (I say "would" because the last time I took an IQ test I was around eight years old). I also have friends who would probably score higher. You can be friends with anybody as long as you're mutually willing to accept each other as equals. And when you do that, you find that there's something to learn from everybody. Because I guarantee that even the homeless guy you pass on the street who sleeps on a park bench and pees on himself knows something that you don't. He has acquired some skill, knowledge or wisdom from his life experience that you haven't. As long as we define ourselves and others strictly in terms of a single, nearly meaningless number, we close ourselves off from a wealth of potential knowledge and experience.
Re:419 Scams (Score:5, Insightful)
Some rich people are stupid, but so are most of the poor people I know so unless you've got a couple of citations to back up your obviously prejudiced opinions your just a troll.
Re:419 Scams (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:419 Scams (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a simple fact (at least in the United States) that MOST millionaires are NOT millionaires through inheritance.
What it takes to become rich is not some sort of global all-around, jack-of-all-trades smartness; it's expertise in a single area.
So it seems quite logical that these wealthy people who have focuses so much on one particular thing are not particularly knowledgeable about other things.
Re:This is news? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Inverse Correlation (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps when people who don't have PhDs can't work a remote or leave their keys in their car, you don't notice as much because there's nothing in particular about them that creates the expectation of intelligence? The idea that there's an inverse correlation is a very common defensive reaction on the part of people who don't have much of any kind of intelligence, but there's precious little evidence for it in real life. It's more a matter of selection bias: we notice when smart people do stupid things. When stupid people do stupid things, it's business as usual.
Re:I say this with some knowledge on the matter (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes when you're smart, and things come easy to you, when you have to do something challenging it seems impossible. Not necessarily because you are incapable of the task, but because you are not used to being challenged. Like having to lift with muscles you've been neglecting.
Re:This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)
My experience with Mensa people is that they are primarily losers. I quit after my first meeting, I saw how every one of them had a complete 8 foot 4X4 made of oak up each of their asses.
Honestly, it gets' you NOTHING in the real world. It's like wasting your time in the National Honors society, that has NEVER helped me in my career.
I would have been far further ahead by volunteering or getting management positions in various campus groups.
Re:It reminds me of the old saying (Score:5, Insightful)
How can you proven something as arbitrary as common sense is a poor decision making tool?
Do you have any links to these studies?
Common sense is just a term used to describe using the most obvious, sensible solution that may have been overlooked in the face of alternative, more stupid solutions. Quite how you can prove that is a poor decision making tool I'd love to know.
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:1, Insightful)
I would quibble. I believe that intelligence is based on the ability to manipulate symbolic information, be it mental, visual, verbal or other.
There is probably a correlation with creativity and "open mindedness" based on the mental ability to manipulate information, but I would quibble that that is a measure of intelligence.
I would suggest that being wrong is not the same as being stupid. People are lazy and often fall into habits of not thinking, of not questioning their beliefs and assumptions, but that's not the same as stupid.
Bush was wrong about many things; I suspect a combination of "Country Club Republican" upbringing and a poor choice of advisors, but that doesn't make him stupid.
I notice in life, and especially on the internet, there's a tendency to dismiss anyone who disagrees with a point of view as stupid. That in itself is a sign of laziness or not thinking.
There is always a reason why someone believes as they do. They may be stupid, but they could also have incomplete or erroneous (or more complete or correct!) information, or just have a different set of assumptions than the other person.
Re:419 Scams (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not exactly a mystery. You tend to mimic the lifestyle of your parents, and they mimic the lifestyle of their parents and so on. So if your parents placed a high priority on schooling, learning, education etc then you are likely to pass that lifestyle onto your kids. So... you might have many generations which have been too busy putting food on the table with multiple jobs or dealing with gangs or drugs or a dangerous neighbourhood and had more things to worry about than making sure their child focuses on school, gets help with homework and stays out of trouble.
And vice-versa. My parents were big on school so I was very limited in my TV/video game time. I had to read a novel each night for an hour and my homework was priority #1 after school. My sister struggled and they got her a tutor. As a result I did well in school and will pass that on to my kids.
Of course, you can have within individual families a radical shift. One parent decides they want 'a better life' for their child and makes a big shift resulting in that family breaking the cycle. But when you are looking at entire societies or segments of the population that kind of change is much slower.
Race or any other 'trait' has nothing at all to do with it other than historically. The "such and such race is inherently smarter than such and such other race" argument is nonsense, and horrendously hard to test because family and societal factors creep into your study if you are looking at a large enough study group (ie - student performance across a state or country).
Re:major difference (Score:5, Insightful)
If it wasn't for obsessive compulsive people, we'd still be living in the Dark Ages. Take Newton for example. He spent almost 20 years plotting, calculating, and theorizing until he arrived at his Gravitational Laws. It's these kinds of people who find discoveries and enrich human knowledge.
Re:It reminds me of the old saying (Score:4, Insightful)
How can you proven something as arbitrary [...]
Easy. You call yourself a psychologist.
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, I'm an "intellectual" with a fairly high IQ last time I checked, yet I still get along with most people. It's just that I don't have very strong friendships with people who are mostly "normal" and I tend to drift away from them. And I mean "normal" as in, they don't have any strong opinions or knowledge about anything but recent TV shows and celebrity gossip.
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:2, Insightful)
Man defines humor to fit how he behaves, news at 11.
... :P
Re:419 Scams (Score:4, Insightful)
2) And a fair number of smart people are more interested in spending their time on other things than spending it on making a lot of money. Life is short after all[1].
Not that having a lot of money is bad - I'd love to have a lot of money too
[1] As for people who believe there's some sort of heaven[2] and eternal life, it would be more logical for them to accumulate good friends (with eternal life) than money.
Eternity is a long time to spend, counting your billions (trillions?) over and over again without any good friends.
[2] But in that heaven somehow the people would have to be made perfect (voluntarily - not against their will) so that they won't get on each other's nerves and make it seem like hell. Eternity is a very long time for the imperfect. Too long.
Re:419 Scams (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently you must be a very successful man then, because you seem to not know the dilemma of the intelligent human:
We can predict every bad outcome that our actions could take. A dozen a minute. Hundreds though the day.
The dumb man just walks up to the hot girl, talking to her, thinking he is the greatest guy on earth. Which funnily draws others, including the girl, into that reality too.
While we just stand around, playing through all the horrible ways that it could go wrong. Oh boy, and do we know many of those! ^^
So I congratulate you on your success and bow to you in envy! :P
P.S.:
That's why alcohol is even better for intelligent people. Seriously.
Of course, just assuming you're great (and then automatically trying to live up to that, celebrating the successes, and not getting pulled down by the failures), is much better in the long run.
I recommend this: If you go out to pick up a girl, plan on the first dozen times you talk to a girl going horribly bad. Make jokes about it. Try to make them even worse, just for the fun of it. Until you simply stop caring. It's all just fun anyway. And then suddenly, you will notice, how, because you just want to have fun, and walk up to girls with that idea, and all your glow of having all that fun, you will get very new, much nicer reactions. Before you know it, you're talking to a really hot girl, and she's the one trying to pick up you! ^^ (Of course: Be realistic though. This will not happen the first time you go out. ^^)
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes and no. It's silly to think that the color of a person's skin has anything at all to do with the development of their brain or their intelligence. I.E. There's no causation. Probably no correlation either.
At the same time, genetic factors will make people physically different in plenty of different ways. You could be taller or shorter, fatter or skinnier, etc. All this is based at least somewhat on genetic factors.
It's entirely possible that genetic factors will make someone inherently "smarter" or "dumber"
the old common sense routine (Score:5, Insightful)
When a smart person does something stupid, it's because he lacks common sense. When a stupid person does something stupid, it's because he's stupid.
One of my favorite quotes (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not;
nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not;
unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is
full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are
omnipotent. The slogan "Press On" has solved and always will solve the
problems of the human race.
-Calvin Coolidge
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)
I always thought of intelligence as being something like height. Physical height seems to be a genetic gift, something you're born with or your not, but nutrition still has a fair amount to do with it. Being tall allows you to see over other people's heads and reach things others can't. It changes your perspective. On the down side, sitting on a bus with your knees pressed against the seat in front of you is uncomfortable, and sometimes you have to duck to keep from smacking your head on low-hanging obstacles. Though you have very limited control over how tall you are, short people can still climb ladders or even wear lifts to equal things out a bit.
Intelligence is a lot like that, but it's not just the food you eat that affects your development, it's also the ideas you fill your head with and the mental exercises you engage in. Being smart makes some things easier and can let you see things that others can't, but it can also make things more painful or even dangerous. Yes, there are metaphorical mental analogs to the short doorjam or low ceiling. And though being exceptionally quick is an advantage, there are other ways to get similar results. Studying, experience, thinking a lot, and talking to other smart people can allow someone with lesser natural gifts to out-think someone with greater gifts, just like a shorter man on a ladder can stand taller.
Re:419 Scams (Score:4, Insightful)
As I don't have the book in question (and even if I ordered it from Amazon it wouldn't get here before this discussion would get locked) I'll just ask you: Should I take it that the book defines "first generation rich" as "parents weren't millionaires but they may very well have been upper middle class with a few smart investments, $500k in the bank and an extended family with similar finances"? What I'm implying here is that there's a bit of difference between a "self-made man" who's from a family with a total yearly income of $25k, who's the first person in his/her family with a college education etc. and a "self-made man" from a family with a yearly income in excess of $300k who think it's only natural to pay for college for their children (and of course the mandatory "travel in europe for a few months before going to college", paid for by mommy and daddy).
/Mikael
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:3, Insightful)
You are undoubtably correct, that everyone has something of value to contribute. I won't attempt to write that off, but sometimes the conversations you have to endure to get to that nugget of information will try the patience of a Saint.
Its probably for that reason alone that many of these potential friendships are relgated to mere acquaintances, and this wealth of information left on the table.
Re:419 Scams (Score:1, Insightful)
Had girl-phobia. I was going to die a virgin despite being somewhat attractive and not a bum or anything. I just had this psychological problem. Post traumatic stress dating from junior high school. For the past three years I'd contemplated suicide almost every day. I had to fix this or I would die. So, I went a few hundred miles from home where there would be people I would never see again, to Manhattan on the Fourth of July when there would be lots of people. ( This was quite a few years ago because I stepped into Manhattan that morning from the Subway stop under the World Trade Center.
I said 'Hello' to every female I felt even slightly sexually attracted to, made eye contact and smiled. Let me tell you I freaked quite a few out but I was literally girl-phobic and needed the desensitization. Anyway, nothing came of it but it was useful.
I ended up getting married a few years later. Being married completely destroys girlphobia. Seven years later I am divorced. Now I could talk to women but I don't want to. I expect they are dicks. Low expectations makes talking to women easier. You just don't give a shit. Except don't expect to get laid that way. Maybe that feeling will wear off someday. Maybe not.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
I recommend this: If you go out to pick up a girl, plan on the first dozen times you talk to a girl going horribly bad.
I never understood why guys do this with the mentality of picking a girl up. Make conversation with them about anything. You'll know in 5 minutes if your going to hit it off... But going up to them and saying "hey baby! come back to my place!" or something lame usually will get you the evil eye.
I think the hardest part is what to say first...
I suppose you could just have "Come here often?" or "having fun?" or "how's your evening ladies?"
And FFS, introduce yourself and your friends... It seems less creepy that way rather than trying to talk without names.
Re:I don't see why that's "important". (Score:3, Insightful)
Black people are different on the outside, why can't they be different on the inside, too?
Because what makes them different on the outside is such a mind-bogglingly infinitesimal fraction of the entire genetic code. It's simply not likely that there are any broad measures of mental capacity linked to it. About the only things closely linked are discrete details like larger gaps between the condyles in the knee, angle of the upper mandibular ridge, etc. Something as broadly affected as mental capacity is unlikely to have much correlation.
...and if they're different, why is it hard to believe that somebody with an agenda can make a test which shows that difference?
Because if no such differences have even been documented, it's highly unlikely that anyone has had the opportunity to go a step further and tailor a test that exploits them.
Intelligence is part heredity, and part random. Smart people tend to have smart kids, and sometimes even dumb people come up with the occasional poindexter. Skin color simply isn't ever going to be a predictor. Skin color is still highly correlated to poverty, though, and poverty is known to result in a poor learning environment. The difficulty with IQ tests is that they always presume some base level of literacy, and weight based on age. Subsequently, IQ tests are not accurate when literacy levels and ages are varied. That's whey we repeatedly get to hear about that fraud Marilyn vos Savant and her supposed IQ of 228... when the only IQ test she's taken that showed that was one at 10 years old. When they say that IQ measurements at the high end are somewhat inaccurate, they're not just whistling dixie. Any time you evaluate the outliers in any test population you're going to be reduced to pretty much wild-ass guessing, because the entire system is based on fixing 100 as the dead center.
Cognitive ability (Score:1, Insightful)
It's silly to think that the color of a person's skin has anything at all to do with the development of their brain or their intelligence.
I'm sure I'll get marked as flamebait or troll for saying this but it's not actually inconceivable that skin color is genetically somehow connected to cognitive ability. There is NO evidence I am aware of that skin color and cognitive ability are connected and I truly hope they are not connected. BUT there also is no definitive evidence I am aware of that skin color and cognitive ability are not connected either. Genetics are complicated and it is quite common for genetic differences to have multiple effects. Look at Down's syndrome patients as an example. Down's syndrome is caused by a chromosomal disorder. They have outward physical changes in addition a generally lower cognitive ability. My wife is a MD specializing in skin (a dermatopathologist specifically) and she'll tell you that the skin often provides clues of genetic and disease disorders that unquestionably affect cognitive ability. Point is that though we think there is no link, we have no smoking gun evidence to the contrary either. Frankly I think race relations could be improved dramatically if there were clear evidence that skin color had no connection whatsoever to cognitive function. Such a discovery should win both the Nobel prizes for Medicine and Peace in the same year.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
Apparently you are poor, becuase most of the rich people I know are very intelligent. They earned their money (ie not "Old Money") legitimately (ie not "Celebrity Money") and are not connected with hollywood (ie not actors, directors or writters).
That is still anecdotal and it depends on what you mean by intelligent.
Often more than not, an person intelligent in one field may not be intelligent in others...
Like a wealthy day trader who specializes in short sales may not know how to fix their car and his mechanic doesn't understand terminology such as calls, puts, longs, and shorts.
Or a wealthy construction manager who runs his own business may be very intelligent in how to manage his employees and contracts but god help you if he has to figure out how to install an antivirus on his computer.
That said... I know some wealthy people who, while not stupid, did not earn their money through their intelligence. They were simply either a victim of circumstance or had rather wealthy relatives.
Or in some case only are wealthy because they were able to leverage their wealth to earn more wealth whereas had them been middle class or poor, would not have been able to do so.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
The point of the thought experiment isn't realism. It's priorities. If you prefer, imagine a choice between two doors: behind door A is the job of your dreams, behind door B is the woman of your dreams. There isn't a right answer.
Your point about "enough" is well taken. Being able to get "enough" of something is probably a sign of psychological health. But there are only 24 hours in a day; there's no limit to how much money you can accrue on a balance sheet.
Anyone who's worked in a software company.... (Score:3, Insightful)
has at one point been confronted with a brilliant idiot. The kind of guy who wants to spend 2 weeks to make all dialog boxes come up 1/5 of a second faster, by coding his own dialog boxes, from scratch, which would require that everyone use his, and only his dialog boxes, and that the existing 2000 or so dialogs be converted.
Not that he couldn't code it, but... (ahem).
You know him. You've dealt with him. He is everywhere.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
What it takes to become rich is not some sort of global all-around, jack-of-all-trades smartness; it's expertise in a single area.
That's not enough to get rich. No matter how smart or talented you are, you need lots of luck. Had my uncle not been lucky enough to be born intelliget with a lot of creativity, had he not been lucky enough to have been born with excellent eye-hand coordination (it runs in the family, like the intelligence does), and had he not been lucky enough to have his ship bombed (WWII), and lucky enough to be injured yet survive, and had he not been lucky enough to be in the same hospital with his future business partner, who was a born salesman who had just lost a leg, it's doubtful he would have ever gotten rich.
Those commercials for Donald Trump's "How to get rich" book crack me up. The man was born into wealth, what would he know about getting rich?
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:3, Insightful)
I define intelligence as asking the right questions. This entails the curiosity needed to ask questions in the first place, and the insight to define exactly what it is you don't know.
I like your requirement of openness. The hallmark of an idiot is dogmatic adherence to ideas not questioned. For such people, defense of their subscribed views is more important than the actual views. They can't really reason or understand their views, only fight for their acceptance.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is news? (Score:1, Insightful)
I agree. I'm in Mensa, and I generally score around 140 on I.Q. tests on the American scale, closer to 150 on the European scale (I've taken several, usually as a lark). In my experience, intelligence is just a measure of raw talent. You still have to APPLY it to something.
Most of the Mensans I read about in the magazine and newsletter are pretty unimpressive. Oh, THEY'RE impressed with THEMSELVES, because of some test they took long ago. And they'll tell you all about it. But they haven't actually DONE anything.
In contrast, all of my coworkers have done interesting and impressive things with themselves, even though none of them are in Mensa.
Isn't it odd? I guess the take-away is that if you're a programmer, and you work with programmers, the work that you do with one another is a much better measure of your intelligence and general usefulness than some musty old test you took once.
But don't say something like that at a Mensa meeting! You'll be as popular as a turd in a punchbowl!
Re:I don't see why that's "important". (Score:4, Insightful)
While I think that the argument that black people are intrinsically dumber than the rest of us is silly, I should point out that your counter-argument is just as silly.
There was an article recently describing the development of a "smart(er) rat" by the change of a single gene. Which pretty much refutes the notion that it requires much larger genetic changes to "think different" than to "look different".
Re:This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:1, Insightful)
There is something to be said about being a well rounder person among a bunch of people who actually care about whether they can recite the first 30 digits of pi and who has the fastest time completing Sunday's crossword puzzle. If you don't have anything in common to discuss, you aren't looking hard enough.
What I'm saying is that "Dancing with the Stars" is about social circles, not intelligence -- I've actually had very intelligent conversations with people about that show, and very unintelligent conversations with people regarding pi.
I think the difference is that a lot of "intelligent" people pour a lot of energy into expanding knowledge at the expense of expanding relationships -- it's understandable; you do what you're good at. Many people who are very intelligent seem to think that relationship building is automatic, and don't realise that other people put as much effort into, and value, relatiionships with other people as they do with knowledge.
The thing about knowledge is that it's not very useful to know a lot without either being able to share it with someone or apply it in an effective manner.
Re:419 Scams (Score:2, Insightful)
Some jokers modded you 5 so I actually read your long rambling post, going here and going there and ending up nowhere.
Was the point that you shouldn't post on slashdot after a liquid lunch?
Re:419 Scams (Score:1, Insightful)
Race or any other 'trait' has nothing at all to do with it other than historically. The "such and such race is inherently smarter than such and such other race" argument is nonsense, and horrendously hard to test because family and societal factors creep into your study if you are looking at a large enough study group (ie - student performance across a state or country).
Is it? I have no proof or evidence that would suggest otherwise but on the other hand, would it be abnormal if there is a difference?
There are some major physical differences between the various "races" of humans. For example, it's very unlikely a Caucasian will break Usain Bolt's 100m sprint record, or Asians will ever dominate the weightlifting charts.
Would it be so hard to imagine other aspects of the human body, for example the brain, has developed differently between the "races" as well?
Re:IMO Knowledge != Intelligence (Score:3, Insightful)
The puritans (I'm from MA so they come first to mind) believed in predestination and the favor of God. Essentially God is so powerful that he knows exactly what kind of person you are and whether you are destined for heaven or hell at birth. As a result those that are successful are so because they have the favor of God. He is allowing them to be successful because they are Good and destined for Heaven. Conversely, those who are poor and destitute are born sinners and are being punished by God for their own moral inadequacies.
Now, I don't ascribe to that world view and don't know any major religion that encourages it anymore, but it is illustrative. Ultimately, all morality is subjective. Many still believe that hard work is character building, and I'm a firm believer that you appreciate something less if it is given to you as opposed to you earning it. Now, that doesn't excuse the failure of many to help those incapable of helping themselves, but it is a judgement call in many cases to decide whether the needy person in front of you is there because of genuine need or because they simply don't want it enough.
I'm not trying to be combative, but I'd like to know your take on the philanthropy of the Gates Foundation. On one hand, they are probably the single largest philanthropic organization around and AFAIK, the money is coming exclusively from Bill and Melinda. OTOH, Bill is STILL the richest man in the world by a hefty margin, so he could definitely afford to give more than he already has. Where do you draw the line and say that "This person has done their fare share, but that person still needs to give more"?
Re:419 Scams (Score:4, Insightful)
My wife and I are living on less than a third of that and raising a child. I could probably pay off most of my debt in a 2 years if I had your salary and continued living with the budget I have now.
Re:This is news? (Score:1, Insightful)
If you're at a mensa meeting then you're a turd in a turdbowl, lets face it.
Re:Openness to ideas and creativity (Score:2, Insightful)
Is Dancing With the Stars the best dancing you'll ever see? Probably not (though if you treat other dancing competitions with the same respect as Dancing With the Stars then it might be). Is it a gimmick? Yeah. At the end of the equation is there something worthwhile AND entertaining going on? I would say so. TV could actually do much, much worse.
Re:I don't see why that's "important". (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't find it too far fetched to think that a certain sub-set of a population for a period of time had a different evolutionary path than another sub-set. And if this evolutionary path was somehow caused or forced by their skin colour, then voila you've just explained the whole thing.
Too bad anyone saying anything along these lines is quickly labeled racist. Not once in this post have I said that a certain race of people is dumber or has less intelligence. And if you think it does, then you've got some seriously media-force-fed bias in your eyes.
Re:I say this with some knowledge on the matter (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm the founder of Mensa with an IQ of 199.9. I have problems similar to yours. You would think people would be pleased when I constantly tell them about the vast powers of my gigantic brain, and yet there is nothing but constant resentment from them. I attribute this to their comparative retardedness, and not to my being a gigantic asshole.
(I've yet to meet a Mensa member who wasn't a total douchebag. That might be your problem.)
(Oh, and the fact that you're doing tech support? Proof positive that IQ means exactly dick, if you needed one.)
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:419 Scams (Score:1, Insightful)
Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study [wikipedia.org]
Speculation is fun, but you're wrong. Aside from the fact that it makes you feel good, why would you believe that human populations that don't frequently interbreed, or have not frequently interbred would be exactly the same in terms of intelligence? Why should intelligence be immune to the genetic shifting that caused changes in traits like skin color, eye shape, eye color, hair color, bone density, height and body fat content?
I'll speculate that otherwise intelligent people fall prey ideas like these because it reduces cognitive dissonance with the current predominant mores of western society.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cart and Horse (Score:3, Insightful)
It's funny you cite all those slums and ghettoes. Where are the Italian slums and Irish ghettoes now? Every member of your list is a place. Those Irish, Italians, and people growing up in Appalachia have a significant, definite chance, however small it may be, to work their way out of the ghetto. Black people in America largely do not, or if they do, it is obviously a significantly smaller chance than do other groups of people.
We just elected a black man president.
Change isn't some magical thing where suddenly, one day, everything is completely different. Most people do not even recognize change as it is happening, they recognize it after it has already occurred. For a very, very long time, blacks in America have lived in a country which was either outwardly hostile to them or completely unsympathetic to their situation.
As you said, it's been about a generation "post civil rights and such". Eisenhower forced desegregation of schools in the South in the 50s; exactly what effect do you think that should have? Starting around 1960, blacks finally had an "equal" opportunity for education. I say "equal" because it still obviously isn't quite completely equal, even though it is no longer strict segregation. It's been about one generation, at most -- the people who could go to desegregated schools have grown into adults and have probably had children of their own.
One adult got the opportunity to receive a good education, and with this opportunity comes the potential to take advantage of it or waste it, just like any other. The rates for wasting it are probably slightly higher still because of the quality of education they may receive, as well as coming from a background where it may not be highly stressed, or where it may be completely unaffordable. One pair of adults have one set of children, who receive a similar opportunity. There's still a lot of work to be done, both by the people who sometimes unknowingly support discrimination against blacks, who must recognize their faults and their communities' faults in prolonging the poverty of blacks, and even moreso by the blacks themselves, who must work hard as individuals in order to take advantage of the opportunities presented.
One of the major problems is that the black subculture in America has been so shattered that it has no real ambition. There are very few role models. The role models they do have have often been forced into specific tracts of life. It should be obvious that the "success" achievable for a white man in America aren't as available to black men in America, for a variety of reasons. As such, the underclass tends to focus its skill, effort, and talents in other areas, especially ones which have an emphasis on individual abilities and personal distinction, in part to separate them from the negative stereotypes. Look at the histories of American music and writing in the 20th century, or at cultural phenomena, where many have a very profound impact from black people who managed to be successful and innovative. The blues, jazz, swing, and rock and roll all have very, very distinctive black roots. Blacks are commonly depicted as being better dancers or perhaps better singers. American literature abounds with black poets and writers, with a much greater proportion than could ever be expected normally. Look at sports, especially in the latter half of the 20th century and on to today, where black athletes have practically dominated. Why is this so?
It's one of the few avenues of life where they are allowed to be successful, and everything in their lives is practically constructed to shift them into having a focus in those areas. Remember how I said they are often lacking in role models? Many of the role models they do have succeeded in areas like this. Kids all over dreamt of
Oranges and apples (Score:3, Insightful)
How can a 'smart' person act foolishly?
Because being smart doesn't make you wise.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
If it floats, flies, or f***s, rent it.
Re:419 Scams (Score:3, Insightful)
Or: you tend to inherit intelligence from your parents, and they inherited intelligence from their parents, and so on.
Or: if your parents were intelligent, then you are likely to pass intelligence onto your kids.
And some people will do just fine while spending significantly less time on schoolwork than others. I probably spent less than an hour a week doing homework/reading for high school.
It makes people feel better to believe this is nonsense, but there is evidence that certain races do have different abilities. It is a result of evolution.