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It changed our relationships with animals as well (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:It changed our relationships with animals as we (Score:4, Interesting)
One hypothesis is that domestication of the modern dog came about partially as a result of our ability to cook food.
Another recent hypothesis is that dogs were domesticated for food. If you look at the genetic diversity of dogs, it is highest in southern China where dogs are still eaten. Archaeological evidence also suggests that the oldest dog bones in the area were butchered.
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Have you just not heard of trichinosis? It's common in Middle East. Swine wallow in mud to stay cool. That's a recipe for humans getting parasites.
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Dogs aren't carnivores. They're omnivores, just like we are, and their digestive system is very similar due to "shared evolution". There's a reason why dogs will get sick if they eat nothing but raw meat; likewise, they'll get sick if they eat only raw foods (like, oh, carrots) they will get ill (and often turn on their owners, if they're large enough)?
Have you ever seen a dog eat grass, bugs, or cooked vegetable/grain table scraps? That's partially because their dietary needs are very similar to our's.
Dogs
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Which segues into an important question about the effects of domesticating animals on the species that is doing the domestication.
There is no question that the domestication process had a major impact on dogs. There has been a kind of taboo on looking at the other side of this, though: what were the effects on the humanoids, how much did our ancestors change due to the new partnership with dogs? Dogs have changed markedly since their ancestors began associating with humans; does it not seem likely that th
Re:It changed our relationships with animals as we (Score:5, Interesting)
There is no question that the domestication process had a major impact on dogs. There has been a kind of taboo on looking at the other side of this, though: what were the effects on the humanoids, how much did our ancestors change due to the new partnership with dogs? ... any research in this area runs into a taboo about challenging the "god gave man dominion over the animals" of the dominant religious teachings.
Well, perhaps, in the "silly sciences". But among biologists in general, there has been no sign of such a taboo, and this topic is dealt with quite openly. It is well-understood that, as one text I saw recently put it, humans are one of the species with the most symbiotic relationships. We have domesticated several hundred animal species and several thousand plant species. Much of the reason we've been so successful at this is a major human adaptation that is referred to informally as "empathy". We are capable of understanding other species to a much greater degree than they can understand us.
The dog is an interesting case, because it's clear that they differ from their wolf ancestors in that they have a good understanding of human psychology, body language, etc. This is true to a lesser degree in a few other domestic species, notably cats and horses. But most of our domestic animals don't really understand us; we understand them (to varying degrees).
Or course, even with dogs, this takes some learning on our part. I ran across a funny example a few months ago. A writer (whose name I've forgotten) wrote that birds in general are "alien" creatures, with a body language totally unlike ours, and basically incomprehensible to primates like us. My reaction was "What? Is there a problem understanding bird behavior?" But I'd read some of the biological articles on the topic, and (probably more importantly) due to my wife's serious allergies to furry critters, I've lived in a house with birds for several decades. One of them right now is a blue-crowned conure, who was a "rescue" bird. She was found in a tree in a nearby town about 20 years ago, and some people who knew parrots got her to come down for some food. She was nearly starved, and had obviously not been a wild bird. She had a couple of homes for a few years, one of them a friend of ours who had retired, was traveling a lot, and asked if we wanted to give her a home. She has lived with us since.
Now, blue-crowned conures are not in any sense domesticated. It's likely that a very recent ancestor was caught in the wild, and she's the result at most a few generations of breeding (if you can call it that). Her species has no adaptations for living with humans, but she gets along well. And it's obvious that the reason is that we can talk to her in her own language. As the bird books would say, she's now part of a flock that's led by a couple of those funny flightless humans. A year ago, she got outside, and was in a neighbor's tree, totally terrified. We spent an hour "talking" her down to lower and lower branches, until finally she flew to my shoulder and started nibbling my ear. We took her back inside her home, and she shows no interest in that horrible outdoors, except to watch out the window when we're not there, squawking a greeting when we walk up to the house. Just as well; she'd die quickly in the New England winter that's coming, if she didn't starve first. (We also have cockatiels, but they've been domesticated and bred for about 150 years.)
Anyway, this isn't anything at all odd. Around the world, people keep all sorts of "undomesticated" animals as pets. There was a nice example years ago in a National Geographic article that started of talking about an area of India where people express wonder about the Europeans who keep huge "wolves" as pets; aren't they afraid of what those animals will do to their children? The article then went into its topic: In that part of India, people have pet cobras that wander freely around the house. They're not worried about the childre
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Re:It changed our relationships with animals as we (Score:4, Informative)
Hmm. I come from India, in a place where there are plenty of cobra's and they are killed on sight (i.e - even if they are not causing trouble, because the general idea is that if a cobra doesn't cause trouble today, it will tomorrow). India is a vast place, with a multitude of cultures, so it is possible that in some part of India the situation that you describe does exist. When I searched for this on the web, though, I came up with the following on National Geographic TV:
Perhaps you confused Thailand with India. Or perhaps you are right, and there really is a place like you describe in India. All I could find, though, was the above reference.
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I'll have to look that up; it sounds impressive.
I don't remember where the NG story was in India; I vaguely recall that it was southerly. I also don't know how large an area they were writing about. It is interesting how many different cultures there are in India. It's one of the most culturally diverse part of the planet. Not that people there always get along, but they do seem to be generally more tolerant of differences than people are in much of the rest of the world.
I wonder if I could find the video
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I'm guessing you mean the boas when you say "not a threat to life". My friend did say that she had to learn how to feed them right to keep them friendly and docile. It turned out to be about two mice per week. And she also said she'd had an earlier snake that she fed too well, so it grew to be too big for her to handle or wear as jewelry. She donated it to a local zoo, where it was still living the last I heard, and got a new baby boa.
I've read that most of the "show" cobras are defanged. The story I r
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But someone who has never owned a parrot? If he walked to a person and bopped his head sideways, I am 100% sure that 99% of the people would have no clue that it means that his neck itches. In fact, I'm pretty sure they couldn't even tell if he is tired, scared or in a bad mood. In all of those most people would think "He flies around and screams. He probably isn't happy?" and couldn't interpret anything more.
Yeah; that was basically what I was saying, though I said it the other way 'round. The writer I wa
Re:It changed our relationships with animals as we (Score:4, Insightful)
Man is more likely to have been affected by its domestication of annual plants like wheat. Growing wheat required settling down into stable communities, tending the plants meticulously, harvesting and storing them as a mass collective effort. Can't remember where I read it, but man has been described as a subservient species to plants like wheat which modified themselves to capture a host organisms. At any rate, I think at least that the adage "You are what you eat" does apply in some small way to the evolution of humans.
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I don't understand (Score:2)
How would our ancestors been able to cook while cavorting with the dolphins [wikipedia.org]?
fast food (Score:4, Funny)
And fast food made us american!
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Fast food made us fat. A revolution made us American.
vegetarians (Score:3, Funny)
I'm a vegetarian. Let's say my children will be too, and their children as well (and so on, and so forth). Does this mean that eventually their stomach size will increase?
Re:vegetarians (Score:5, Funny)
No, it means your line will eventually become extinct
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-- your descendants smaller brain sizes guarantee lives as grocery cart attendants, or
-- your descendants brains processing will become more efficient as their brain size shrinks in order to maintain parity with the other humans.
Either way they will be freaks.
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If you think that your children will fall in love only with a vegetarian(That would be messing with their lives very dramatically), then maybe some permanent changes may occur. But only if vegetarians really need to have bigger stomachs to digest the required amount of food.
Re:vegetarians (Score:5, Informative)
The reason for this is that the genetic material passed on through reproduction comes entirely from the cells in your reproductive organs, so no matter how much you train your neck (or stomach, in your case), none of those changes can in any way get passed to your children, because those cells just aren't involved in the process.
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A one month old story (Score:2)
Is this another slashvertisement to get the story out there and advertise the book again? I already listened to the Science Friday segment a month ago.
From the linked article:
[quote]August 28, 2009[/quote]
It may well be an interesting book, but I don't think I will ever get around to buying or reading it, too much of a backlog as it is.
1.9 Million or 150,000 years ago? (Score:4, Informative)
Compare this article with the one posted back in August 2008:
http://science.slashdot.org/story/08/08/12/2036254/Cooking-Stimulated-Big-Leap-In-Human-Cognition [slashdot.org]
Opinions?
--Paul
Re:1.9 Million or 150,000 years ago? (Score:4, Insightful)
"It's not cooking, but it's a similar issue, and it becomes a rather interesting chicken-and-egg question."
Only because we tend to think about evolution on finalistic terms (such as "this allowed us to go towards this goal").
Darwinian evolution is based on fitness and that means a given genotype is selected by means of its expressed phenotype as a whole. There's no "chicken-and-egg" problem since mutations are not queued waiting to see if they win the prize or not prior to go for the next one. At any given moment random mutations can appear; some of them produce a better fitting to current environment; vast majority are either "bad" or neutral. The "proper" combination of brain size/energy cost plus allowed diet plus difficulty or easiness at childbirth plus... is selected on an "all or nothing" way.
So, in the end, it is not that immatureness at birth allowed to bigger brains or the other way around; it is not that a more energetic diet allowed for less costly digestive apparatus which in turn allowed for a more costly brain or the other way around, etc. it all happened more or less at the same time on a monotonic path (while certainly one given mutation did appeared earlier than any other one; I don't think will ever be able to find what exactly happened, mutation by mutation, nor it's needed go down to such level of detail to understand how happened on a more general but still significant way, except, maybe, for a bunch of big steps if they indeed happended).
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Tasty (Score:2, Funny)
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Just stew on that for a while...
BREAKING NEWS (Score:2)
Fire determined to be most important discovery of human history!
if 'Cooking May Have Made Us Human' (Score:2)
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Logical inverse? (Score:2)
... cooking our food has not only changed our bodies over the years, giving us smaller mouths ... it's given us an evolutionary advantage: bigger brains
Can we imply the inverse: people with big mouths have small brains and prefer sushi?
Re:Not Quite. (Score:5, Interesting)
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The Pottenger Experiments. [nutritionreallyworks.net]
While that research might be fine when it comes to cats (I have no knowledge of the field, and I can't be bothered to Google for any scholarly papers to back up the assertions on a website) you are aware that that's completely inapplicable to digestion and nutrition in humans? The issue here is that cats are carnivores and humans are omnivores; the evidence for this is in our dentition, but you can bet that our guts will be at least as different.
Humans have been cooking food for a long long time, through a
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I'm not saying either method is more efficient, I'm just pointing out that we can't draw any conclusions without looking at the entire process.
The possibility that comes to mind, however, is this:
--Cooking food changes the chemical structure of the food. For example, the collagen in meat is converted to a more gelatinous form, which requires less energy to digest. Call this change in energy delta-Y.
--At the same time, enzymes in the food are partially destroyed during the cooking process, which must be repl
Re:Not Quite. (Score:5, Insightful)
"fitness", as applied to evolution, has nothing to do with the kind of "fitness" you might acquire by going to the gym; ie, being bigger and stronger.
"Survival of the fittest", (a phrase that did not originate with C. Darwin), means leaving more offspring who, in turn, leave surviving offspring, passing on whatever adaptive advantage led to having more offspring. Certainly our intelligence, tool using, and general intellectual flexibility is highly adaptive. It is, perhaps, our most adaptive trait, along with bipedalism.
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I reckon someone who hits the gym regularly (not necessarily daily even) will have more ... shall we say ... mating potential
Aha! I knew gyms were just a front for coupling services, a flesh market. Largely based on the observations that people in gyms tend to already be well fit when they start attending.
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Why can't cooking be considered an adaption to the surroundings?
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Or use thereof. I've always wondered how - according to DNA analysis - humanity may have gone thru the eye of a needle, with only a small population at a particular point in time. Now, imagine that a group of ancestors lived near a volcano, or a region like you have in Yellowstone. The could cook their food there, in hot pockets (it is still being done). That would allow a group to stay in a single place for quite some time, interbreed, and thrive.
Mastering fire could come much later.
Bert
Nonsense (Score:3, Interesting)
Your ideas about evolution are fairly dated. It lacks our new understanding that there are other things that "want" to replicate besides genes. We know are starting to understand that ideas and culture are a replicant who is on par with genes. We call them memes.
When viewed through the idea that memes "want" to replicate--scientific discoveries and things like cooking become memes routing around meatspace constraints. In otherwords, science is not a hindrance to evolution, it *is* evolution. Just not e
Re:Not Quite. (Score:5, Insightful)
Our ability to think and reason is what makes us the fittest. The concept doesn't just apply to physical traits.
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Re:Not Quite. (Score:5, Insightful)
... as we aren't the fittest animal out there we simply outthink our enemies which defies survival of the fittest...
Survival of the fittest, not survival of the strongest. Doesn't intelligence make us humans much more fit to our environment? Why would a human need te be able to run 100km/h when you can drive a car?
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Re:Not Quite. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Survival of the fittest" means that those survive that are best adopted to their environment, it has nothing to do with fitness, strength or any other property, as properties that might be beneficial in one environment might be useless or even deadly in another.
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Cuisine indicates wealth of past cultures. (Score:5, Interesting)
During the Tong Dynasty, China was definitely a wealthy kingdom in the heart of Asia. Here, "wealthy" is a relative term. Though China of that era is likely poorer than Soviet Russia, China was still the richest nation during the time of the Tong Dynasty.
Now, look at Japanese food. It has simple procedures that require few ingredients. Having few resources, the inhabitants of Japan created cuisine that minimized the use of natural resources. Consider raw fish, which was a common food item in ancient Japan. Raw fish requires little preparation beyond just slicing off the flesh.
Here is an exercise for the reader. The Big Mac is the quintessential item in the American cuisine. What does the Big Mac tell us about American civilization?
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Re:Raw food (Score:5, Insightful)
"There are levels in between raw and burnt."
Raw, Warm and Bloody, Medium, Denny's, Burnt
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Re:If you think that through... (Score:5, Informative)
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