Vegetative Patients Can Still Learn 159
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ScuttleMonkey
from the better-than-some-biz-folks-i-have-known dept.
from the better-than-some-biz-folks-i-have-known dept.
enigma48 writes to mention that a collaborative study between the Universities of Buenos Aires and Cambridge have demonstrated that individuals in a vegetative state can still learn and demonstrate at least a partial consciousness. Their findings are reported in a recent online edition of Nature Neuroscience. "It is the first time that scientists have tested whether patients in vegetative and minimally conscious states can learn. By establishing that they can, it is believed that this simple test will enable practitioners to assess the patient's consciousness without the need of imaging. The abstract is also available in the advance issue of Nature."
Re:fMRI Strikes Again (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with this, not to mention they are talking about things that are borderline instinctual. That is not the same as "learning" in the sense of the phrase. Reminds me of that fatal birth defect where a kid is born without the top of their skull so it doesn't form all of the brain, but enough for them to cry, smile, etc and causes people serious emotional stress because it appears to be cognition when it's not.
It's not about the science at some point. (Score:2, Interesting)
This study probably won't change anything, because most people decide what does and doesn't count as 'alive' on a gut level. You'll even find people way at the ends of the bell curve, saying relatively high-functioning people should be put to sleep or insisting that someone whose brain has been removed entirely is still alive somewhere "in there".
Personally, I lean to the "still alive" end of things - possibly further than logic anc science would support.
This is scary (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:fMRI Strikes Again (Score:0, Interesting)
the most special moments of your life
Don't get too sentimental over something that is far more mundane than you make it out to be. Infants do not experience love in the same way adults do. The love you feel coming back from your child is mostly just your own projection on to what the child is actually doing...which itself is mostly just instinct and classical conditioning.
Besides, you only love the child because you believe it to be yours. If someone swaps your infant with someone else's infant at the hospital, you wouldn't even know. And nothing special about that stranger would earn your love. You would instantly, and automatically, love that child just because you think it is genetically derived from you (even though it is not).
Women absolutely hate it when I say stuff like this, which is why I generally keep quiet about it (and post anonymously about it). It is popular to sanctify this automatic (instinctual) chemical (mostly dopamine and vasopressin) process by dressing it up with all the poetry we associate with free-willed and altruistic love that adults form with one another on their mutual merits.
It's a crock. It keeps the species going, which is valuable enough in and of itself, but it isn't the profound nonsense we make it out to be.
Cognizant Thought, A True Gift... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not doubting or disqualifying other states of mind, but let's hear a round of cheer for the one that most people percieve - wakeful thought and cognizant awareness; the idea of self and the myriad of directions it takes us in.
Chances are, you've pondered the notion at one time or another, 'I wonder if anyone else is thinking this right now', or 'I wonder how many other people have thought what I'm thinking'. What a supreme notion, to be able to have recursive thoughts where we can examine our own thoughts and compare them to the thoughts of others. Suddenly we're not thinking about the object anymore, we're thinking about thinking about the object and pondering if others have done the same thing.
Hurray for the executive control system of the mind!
M+ (Score:1, Interesting)
Yes, and along that line of thinking... unless all neurons are dead, you should never be surprised that some conditioning is still going on. Neurons adjust their levels, we know that. The interesting question is, is enough still going on in there to for it to be a person? If so, could we still make contact or even wake them up? As it is, all we've seen is conditioning that is slightly less complex than the M+ key on my pocket calculator.
Re:It's not about the science at some point. (Score:3, Interesting)
So, is the placenta "ordinary", or is it "extraordinary"?
The human placenta has a much greater capability than artificial respiration or any sort of experimental treatment. Why should they consent in disconnecting a fully grown human being from a machine but not allow a single cell to be disconnected from its life support system?
Re:fMRI Strikes Again (Score:3, Interesting)
It involves hearing a tone. Auditory sensation is normally processed by the brain, although there may be some more direct pathway to the spinal cord that I'm unaware of.
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:3, Interesting)
I seriously doubt many physicians would follow up with "which puts them at the mental capacity of a gnat", even though a layman's concept of "learning" would make them assume a much higher level of intelligence.
There was research out last year that some can intelligently answer yes/no questions that would suppose consciousness given a short interval of training on how to answer. We hate to think that this could be true.
Vegetables can "learn" too, so why surprising? (Score:2, Interesting)
Now, if you want to talk about the maintenance of actual `human-like behaviour' being reason to rethink the position of veggie-people, I'll be willing to talk. But a vegetable is a vegetable--there's a reason we don't treat vegetables like we do humans.