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Comments: 275 +- Science: DHS Pathogen Lab To Be Built In "Tornado Alley" on Monday July 27 2009, @06:34PM
Posted
by
kdawson
on Monday July 27 2009, @06:34PM
from the don't-think-we're-in-kansas-anymore dept.
from the don't-think-we're-in-kansas-anymore dept.
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biotech
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security
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science
Hugh Pickens writes "The Washington Post reports that Department of Homeland Security is relying on a rushed, flawed study to justify its decision to locate the $700 million National Bio and Agro-Defense Facility for highly infectious pathogens in a tornado-prone section of Kansas. A GAO report says that it is not 'scientifically defensible' to conclude that lab can safely handle dangerous animal diseases in Kansas. Such research has been conducted up to now on a remote island on the northern tip of Long Island, NY. 'Drawing conclusions about relocating research with highly infectious exotic animal pathogens from questionable methodology could result in regrettable consequences,' the GAO warned in its draft report. Critics of moving the operation to the mainland argue that a release could lead to widespread contamination that could kill livestock, devastate a farm economy, and endanger humans. Along with the highly contagious foot-and-mouth disease, NBAF researchers plan to study African swine fever, Japanese encephalitis, Rift Valley fever, and other viruses in the Biosafety Level (BSL) 3 and BSL-4 livestock laboratory capable of developing countermeasures for foreign animal diseases. According to the article, DHS lobbied a Congressional committee to try and convince them that the GAO report was flawed, and to head off any hearings on the controversy. Despite this, the House Energy and Commerce Committee's oversight and investigations subcommittee plans to hold a hearing Thursday on the risk analysis."
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Two Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Two Words (Score:5, Funny)
True, putting the lab underground should prevent any problems.
Actually, putting the lab in anything but a trailerpark should reduce any risk a reasonable amount.
Parent
Re:Two Words (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Just as long as it has a nuclear bomb in the middle, and warning lights carefully-timed to cause seizures.
Re:Two Words (Score:5, Insightful)
True, putting the lab underground should prevent any problems.
Yes, especially in Missouri. [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well, except that it wasn't in Kansas, nor was it in a location especially noted for tornados, or earthquakes, or much of any recent climatic or geologic problems.
Tornados? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tornados? (Score:5, Funny)
Solves the 'not in my backyard' problem. Well, until a tornado picks up the lab and drops it in somebody's backyard...
I saw a documentary about that once. Apparently it caused some very strange mutations where the lab landed; there was evidence of quite a number of unusually small people, strange soporific meteorological events, at least one animal with increased intelligence (at the expense of certain other survival attributes) and one person with a markedly green complexion and behavior anomalies, rendered vulnerable by becoming highly water soluble. I think the pathogens were carried in eggs with a human vector.
Parent
OMFG!!!! (Score:5, Informative)
This is the plot to "Devil Winds".......one the all-time worst disaster films!
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/306319/Devil-Winds/overview [nytimes.com]
http://www.blockbusteronline.com/movies/devil-winds.html [blockbusteronline.com]
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
*Heavy Sigh*
Any time reality starts imitating made for cable movies is a good time to break out the hemlock tea.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
After the shitfest that was The Day After Tomorrow (same director), I expect 2012 to be equally stupid.
Can't Believe It! (Score:3, Insightful)
Congress is actually going to practice a little due diligence. How nice if they always did this.
Kansas is unsafe but Long Island isn't? (Score:4, Interesting)
110 miles from NYC is safe but Kansas is far too dangerous?
This doesn't make any sense.
Re:Kansas is unsafe but Long Island isn't? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Kansas is unsafe but Long Island isn't? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Character) - Quotes
Kansas. Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years.
Re:Kansas is unsafe but Long Island isn't? (Score:4, Funny)
I think the rebuttal is to ask you how many cows live in NYC ?
Apparently there are a lot [nyc.gov]
Parent
here's probably what happened (Score:4, Interesting)
some jerkoff senator is scratching some corporate donor's back by bringing the massive contruction contract to his own back yard in BFE, Kansas.
This is the worst kind of politicking. Anyone with any kind of common sense knows that the only facility safe in tornado alley is built underground.
Re:here's probably what happened (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Let the environment help with containment (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not put it somewhere isolated that is very cold or very hot, like Alaska or the desert, where the environment would help limit the spread of any escaped pathogens, not give them an ideal breeding ground like Kansas would.
You could use the argument that researchers wouldn't want to live there, but you could say the same thing about Kansas!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, let's put the lab in Antarctica! It'll be totally safe there! Nobody would get within a thousand miles of the facility. Well, except for the all the cross-country plane trips to bring newly discovered strains from the midwest. But hey, jets are the safest form of travel, right?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Living in Kansas is crazy cheap though. You can buy a legit house with a foundation and everything for 30k.
Re:Let the environment help with containment (Score:5, Funny)
Look at it this way: at least in Kansas, there's no way an escaped pathogen could evolve!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Then perhaps the influx of scientists will result in some changes if a few of them care enough to get on the local school boards and/or at least attend the meetings and speak up. That part of this located-in-Kansas debate is the only bit that sounds win-win.
It's not risky --it's actually a security feature (Score:5, Funny)
Revolutionary. It will be resistant to terrorists attacks because it will obviously be _guarded_ by tornadoes.
What frustrates me isn't to where they are moving (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the fact that they're moving it at all. This stuff is currently secure. It's locked up in a building that is supposed to be able to handle a dropped vial or something. It seems to my admittedly non-biotech-schooled mind that moving the stuff for a week is far more dangerous and has a much higher risk factor than letting it sit in the same place for 50 years.
Re:What frustrates me isn't to where they are movi (Score:3, Informative)
I've posted this elsewhere on this story, but it's worth pointing out that we've been transporting nuclear material by road for quite some time, and without major incident.
Part of the reason behind this is that the containers used for shipping are deigned to withstand [youtube.com] a collision from a fully-loaded high speed train.
That sort of accident is extremely unlikely, given that trains are not permitted to run at high speeds through grade crossings, while commercial/hazmat truck drivers are required to make a full
Im not exactly.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Correction: any place located on the East Coast is subject to hurricanes because they travel from east to west. Yes, there's other weather issues on the West Coast as well as earthquakes in California and your point is well taken. Just wanted to correct the part about hurricanes.
Clearly (Score:4, Funny)
They should put the lab in an underground complex under Raccoon City, Colorado. What could possibly go wrong?
As someone from "Tornado Alley" (Score:4, Informative)
we don't get hit with tornadoes all that often. They do happen, and small towns do get properly torn-up by them, but one of those only hits every few years. Most of our tornadoes touch down in uninhabited areas, because there's a /lot/ of space that's farm fields, pastures, or forested. Also, I'd much rather be here than where hurricanes or earthquakes or forest fires are apt to hit, because tornadoes by their nature affect only a small area.
Taco, would you get around to firing kdawson already? His sensationalism was amusing during the election cycle, but it's getting really tiresome.
Other bad places (Score:3, Informative)
Oddly enough, we already have facilities in highly questionable locations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosafety_Level [wikipedia.org]
Look for:
"National Biocontainment Facility"
"Shope Laboratory"
These are Biosafety level 4 facilities in Galveston, Texas.
They have hurricanes in Galveston... Big ones...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"It's because of the heat."
Nah....it's the humidity.
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Nah, lets put it in a far more geographically stable area like California, or a more meteorologically stable area like Florida!
Playing devil's advocate here, clearly this isn't the best location for such a facility but I don't think "being in the middle of the continent" has anything to do with that.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me count the ways its a bad idea.
1. All samples have to come from "someplace else" to the middle of the continental USA, where everybody lives. Plane crash? Car crash? Train derailment? Stupid screw up (oh that could never happen, right?) Your bug is loose in frickin' Kansas. The middle of the continent. Perfect set up for it to spread.
2. Any agriculture bug you're testing? You're surrounded by... agriculture! Better hope you don't have a test tube break.
3. People live right outside. See #2.
4. H
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not even trained
Clearly. FYI, but not everybody lives in the middle of the continent. The vast majority of the population lives on the two coasts, not in the middle. Kansas specifically has a relatively sparse population. A better location would be somewhere in North Dakota, where you've got the smallest population density in the continental US and the cold would also help alleviate any spread.
The little island off the NY coast is a -good- place.
Maybe so, if you ignore the fact that it's next door to the largest population center in North America.
But hey, I'm "flamebait" for suggesting that this kind of stunning stupidity is BUSINESS AS USUAL
No, you're flamebait for suggesting that any single political party, and all of its constituents, is to blame for the general stupidity coming out of the government. Not to mention that you assume the constituents of any party actually want to see stupidity from the government. That's why you're flamebait.
Parent
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Long Island isn't known for regularly-occurring natural disasters. Kansas is.
However, your suggestion of North Dakota is a very good one. It's even more sparsely-populated than Kansas, and there's never any natural disasters there, unless you count -40 temperatures (which as you point out are a good thing for this application).
Parent
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:4, Funny)
Typical New Englander mentality: Fuck the Irish.
Parent
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Insightful)
How is it assholery?
The government has to choose between placing the lab in the geographic center (Kansas) or the population center (coasts) of the US. Both are bad for different reasons.
If remoteness is what you want, we could build it in Alaska, but that would generate all sorts of complaints about the region's geographical stability, cost, and political favoritism. You also have the issue of transportation.
Truth be told, modern construction techniques have made it perfectly safe to place buildings in tornado and earthquake-prone zones. Transport also isn't much of an issue, given that we've figured out how to transport nuclear waste in containers that are designed to withstand pretty much anything [youtube.com]. (Hazardous materials could and should be stored on-site in similarly robust containers)
Honestly, this sounds like a story cooked up to increase ratings, and get people riled up.
Parent
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I suggested that Democrats are the party of more government...
This is often claimed, but I have never, ever observed this to be the case. Aside from a short period of small examples early in the Clinton administration, I've never observed either party make any significant effort to shrink government. Ever since Ford (the first president I remember), every party, every administration, and every congress has been the party, administration, and congress of more government. Lip-service aside, no one is committed to anything else. You can gauge someone's gullibility by the degree to which they believe one party the other favors smaller government, rather than just larger or smaller roles in various areas (each favors an expanded role in some areas and a smaller role in others).
Parent
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:4, Insightful)
"If you RTFA you'll discover that the governor of Kansas is indeed a Democrat, but the two Senators pushing the thing are REPUBLICANS, which only goes to show that the answer is not having the "right" party in power. The only solution is to have -less- government, with less money to create dangerous situations like this."
Flaw: the whole thing is about a research facility designed to mitigate the risks of dangerous and extremely damaging diseases, something that's actually a good idea to have. this isn't an issue of government having too much money with which to do stupid things, or even an issue of having too much government, it;s an issue of government doing things for stupid, greedy reasons. In this case, the reason is almost certainly that Kansas wants more Federal research money to infuse the local economy (researchers need food, water, homes, clothes, cars, and all manner of other goods, plus they have to pay taxes), and given the topic at hand that is a stupid, greedy (who wants to bet me that either Senator has no ties to local construction contractors capable of taking on the government contracts this would immediately lead to? I'll just take your money now) reason.
It's not a matter of more government or less, it's a matter of better. For all that they claim to intend otherwise, the last 3 Republican presidents and have acted to increase the size and scope of government more than almost any other administrations in American history, and at least in my opinion they've done a tremendously shitty job of it. The Republicans believe that government is flawed, ineffective, intrusive and harmful to all aspects of our nation, and if you elect them, by God they will prove it. The Democrats may not do much better, but at least they don't bullshit you about trying to decrease the reach of government.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
1. All samples have to come from someplace else no matter where you are
2. Not disputed.
3. People in the surrounding area will be an even bigger issue outside of the mid-west.
4. That's more of a HR issue than anything else. My guess is it wouldn't be that big of an issue. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move out to some little island in the middle of the fucking Pacific ocean?
5. I never argued that.
Oh, and you were modded flamebait because you decided to include seemingly partisan polit
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Funny)
>4. That's more of a HR issue than anything else. My guess is it wouldn't be that big of an issue. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move out to some little island in the middle of the fucking Pacific ocean?
Substantially more than want to move to Kansas?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
4. That's more of a HR issue than anything else. My guess is it wouldn't be that big of an issue. How many super duper Level 5 trained people want to move out to some little island in the middle of the fucking Pacific ocean?
If it's a nice island, I imagine you'll have a much easier time recruiting great candidates to there rather than Kansas. I, for one, would be happy to live on a nice tropical Pacific island as long as there's at least a town there, and good internet access. But there's no way you'll ev
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
6. Much of the population does not believe in Evolution.
What a great place to do evolution dependent research.
Wait a second. If they don't believe in Evolution, then it none of it is really dangerous.
Re:"Hey, I know!" (Score:5, Insightful)
The way you tried to turn this into a Dems bad/ Reps good issue is incredibly boneheaded. When some nasty pathogen gets loose, I plan to blame you personally because by subverting this argument to your pathetic politics you have undercut all rational discussion that might have prevented the apocalypse. The deaths of 99% of the human race will be personally on your head, and you will be the most thoroughly damned person ever to live. The survivors will eventually make a movie, where Snake Pliskin and a time traveling robot simultaneously hunt you down, join forces in the end, attach chains to opposite sides of your head, and rip your brain in half to the cheers of the entire surviving population. You will be played by John Warner in a fat suit, and he will set the scene by portraying you eating Dalmatian puppies.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I bet you more will get done about this by people who first look to see who endorses it than who worry first about what party they associate with. Get the names of people involved. Don't even start off by describing them as 'bureaucratic' until you know a few job titles and such. See if any of them are scientists, MD's, representitives. Senators, business leaders, or lobbyists, find out who is on a federal public payroll, who is state funded, and who is on a private one, and then, if it still looks importan
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Bird Flue (Score:4, Funny)
It's what my wife has, always sticking her foot into her mouth.
Funny, she's got bird flu too, from putting too much cock in her mouth.
Ba da bing!
Parent