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I'm not so sure. (Score:5, Funny)
The edges arent slightly burnt and you dont roll it out to read it and c'mon, where's the X?
Good Point... (Score:5, Interesting)
It reminds me of a problem my mum told me about in the art world: Verifying the authenticity of ancient scrolls has become virtually impossible due to the discovery of large quantities of paint supplies (dried ink especially) and paper in monasteries. Armed with "old materials", forgers only have to focus on getting the technique, etc. right since there is no means to catch them technologically; for example, carbon dating and similar techniques will give the "right" results. Thus, art historians and dealers in that field allegedly have to rely more and more on their eyes to spot bad technique...
It would not surprise me if the Vinland map could have been constructed under similar circumstances (if that is what someone intended to do). I'm sure someone somewhere could have scared up some old ink and a hide to paint it on. It is or this reason that I guess so many folk are skeptical of the repeated maps from around the world that have come out "discovering" the Americas...
Parent
Re:Good Point... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well you've convinced me, everyone knows a mum trumps an expert [www.kons.dk].
Re:Good Point... (Score:5, Interesting)
It reminds me of a problem my mum told me about in the art world: Verifying the authenticity of ancient scrolls has become virtually impossible due to the discovery of large quantities of paint supplies (dried ink especially) and paper in monasteries. Armed with "old materials", forgers only have to focus on getting the technique, etc. right since there is no means to catch them technologically; for example, carbon dating and similar techniques will give the "right" results. Thus, art historians and dealers in that field allegedly have to rely more and more on their eyes to spot bad technique...
That's the best news I've heard in weeks. Assigning Art monetary value based on some imaginary or hidden property like "authenticity", or "name recognition" is incredibly silly. The fact that forgers have been able to replicate this so people might actually have to assign value based on... what the Art looks like... is really wonderful! Perhaps someday forgery will be so perfect and complete that the concept of an "artistic forgery" will be a concept people have to look at history books to understand. I especially love the occasional documentary on a "master forger" who fooled all the "experts" into believing some work of art was really created by -famous artist-.
Parent
Re:Good Point... (Score:4, Insightful)
And you've ignored his point, which was that people can value the art for whatever reason they want. Just because YOU don't like that reason doesn't mean other people don't.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You sir are an idiot, the value of any art is the value someone is willing to pay for it irrespective of how good the actual art is in your infallible opinion.
Re:Good Point... (Score:5, Insightful)
If we can destroy the concept of "creator", that's "good" IMO.
Except that knowing the creator, their milieu, culture, and intentions is often vital to a proper understanding and appreciation of the artwork in question, rather than some superficial and effectively meaningless reaction based on your cultural biases and limited experience.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So the history and intent are irrelevant for the appreciation of a piece of art? :-D
So you've never heard song lyrics which sounded silly, but made perfect sense when you found out what the song writers intent was?
Or have you never wondered why some art or music seems almost 'timeless' while some songs sound incredibly dated just three years after they were produced? Hint, these two phenomenon are strongly related.
I agree with the other poster. You poor sod....
Carbon dating (Score:4, Interesting)
Carbon dating any plastic material would probably result in a very old age. Carbon-14 is produced by cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere. Any material that's produced from petroleum, such as plastics and solvents, is depleted of carbon-14, because it comes from oil that was buried for millions of years.
The same is true for coal. Mix rock coal in a black pigment that's normally made with charcoal and it will appear to be much older.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
If only history was right (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If only history was right (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, Norway has two languages - Norwegian Bokmål ("Book language" - but also spoken - very similar to Danish) and Norwegian Nynorsk ("New Norwegian"). Norwegian Nynorsk might be more like Icelandic than Danish, but Norwegian Bokmål is essentially Danish. I guess it's because Norway was part of Denmark some time ago...
I'm a dane and I speak both Danish and Norwegian (Bokmål). I know some Norwegian Nynorsk, but not enough to carry a conversation. I've heard quite a bit of Icelandic, and I don't understand a word... well... yeah, I know one word... :-)
When it comes to it though, Icelandic is very much like the language spoken in Denmark at the time of the map - if it's real...
Actually, Norwegians never spoke Bokmal. It looks like Danish, because it essentially is Danish. Norwegians spoke Norse, and wrote in Danish. Much like the middle ages where most of Europe spoke this language or that language, but everything was written in Latin.
Nynorsk was started in order to try and provide Norwegians with a written version of the language that they actually spoke, rather than continuing to force their children to learn a new language just to write in.
Icelandic is much closer to Old Norse than any surviving North Germanic language (which is the Scandinavian languages + Icelandic). Since they were isolated on an island, and were colonists, they tended towards linguistic conservation. A similar situation happened with English in the USA (only on a way smaller historical scale.)
Overall though, Nynorsk is about as similar to Icelandic as Danish/Bokmal, and Swedish are. The three "languages" are reasonably mutually intelligible, and mutually unintelligible with Icelandic.
Parent
Leifur Eiriksson was Icelandic, definitely (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Leifur Eiriksson was Icelandic, definitely (Score:5, Interesting)
Leif Ericson is described as Norwegian because his grandfather and his father were born there. His grandfather was a murderer, so he fled to Iceland. His father was a murderer, so he fled to Greenland, where Leif was born.
Calling them not Norwegian is like calling the Nazis who escaped to Argentina not German.
And now that I have successfully Godwinned this argument, we are done.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
*Leifr EirÃksson* was born in Iceland to an "Icelandic" mother, ÃzjÃÃhildr. His father, EÃrikr inn rauÃi (Erik the Red), was a Norwegian outlaw.
Still, it's ridiculously anachronistic to apply modern-day nationalities to the 9th century. If asked, my guess would be that Leifr would have called himself a Norseman.
Larsen != Larson (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Larsen != Larson (Score:5, Informative)
The source has him as Larsen, also here is his work page [www.kons.dk].
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Larsen != Larson (Score:5, Funny)
Yet they both mean exactly the same, son of Lars.
Obviously Lars was leading a double life with a family in Sweden and a family in Denmark.
Parent
Re:Larsen != Larson (Score:5, Funny)
The normal Swedish spelling is Larsson.
Larsen is a danish or norwegian guy. Larson is a scandinavian immigrant to the US, or a swede who wants to insinuate he has more money than some random Larsson. Larzon is a swede who's in the sleazier part of the entertainment industry.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Larzon is a swede who's in the sleazier part of the entertainment industry.
From the same people who gave us Zed from Zardoz?
Re:Larsen != Larson (Score:5, Funny)
Don't think you're the only one. Everybody thinks I'm a food. I even had the nickname MC in university. There has been maybe two times I didn't have to spell my name for somebody.
Parent
Re:Larsen != Larson (Score:5, Insightful)
Population of Denmark: 5.5 million
Population of Sweden: 9 million
Out of curiosity, without scurrying off to wikipedia, could you differentiate a Punjabi name (130 million) from a Bengali (230 million) name?
Or, not even leaving Europe, how about the difference between Ukrainian (50 million) and Russian (100 million)?
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Population of Denmark: 5.5 million Population of Sweden: 9 million
Out of curiosity, without scurrying off to wikipedia, could you differentiate a Punjabi name (130 million) from a Bengali (230 million) name?
Or, not even leaving Europe, how about the difference between Ukrainian (50 million) and Russian (100 million)?
You don't have to look anything up in Wikipedia, you just need to copy/paste correctly from the article that you are submitting.
Maybe even submitters do not RTFA?
Important viking discoveries (Score:5, Funny)
I remember some years ago learning about a Viking who were one of the first to visit Greenland (I do not recall who). It was written "en passant" in one of the sagas that he had reported back in Island that curiously enough if you stab an Inuit with a sword he just keeps on bleeding (due to the extreme cold Inuits are genetically adapted to have blood that does not coagulate easily).
And who says that these Vikings were brutal warriors and not peaceful traders?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It sounds to me that my ancestors were very keen on performing scientific experiments, with rigorous field testing to back up the scientific data!
Re:Important viking discoveries (Score:4, Informative)
Well, Wikipedia does not agree with you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland [wikipedia.org]
I have found a reference to the story. It is from Historia Norwegia and the quote I was looking for is for example referenced in this NYT 1911 article:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D02EFDC1E31E233A25755C2A9679D946096D6CF [nytimes.com]
So the full quote was actually (about the Skraelings of Greenland):
"...they are struok with weapons when alive, their wounds are white and do not bleed, but when they are dead the blood scarcely stops running."
Parent
"Magnae Insulae Beati Brandani Branziliae Dictae"? (Score:5, Funny)
Look at those large islands to the west of the Canaries. They're labelled Magnae Insulae Beati Brandani Branziliae Dictae: St Brandon's Large Islands, Called The Branzillas. Branzillas? Nobody used -zilla to mean "large" before Godzilla, and it didn't become really popular until Mozilla. The whole thing is clearly a forgery by some 21st-century geek, probably a Terry Gilliam fan, trying to mock up a folk etymology of the name "Brazil". ;)
Peter
Re:hm (Score:5, Informative)
Vinland is recognised by most historians as being a short-lived Norse ('Viking') colony in the Newfoundland area, probably on mainland North America (though the exact location and extent is very unsure). See the Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org].
The map shows it as an island presumably (assuming it is genuine) because the area was explored to a very limted extent and the explorers were unaware that it was part of a much greater land mass.
Parent
Re:hm (Score:5, Informative)
Huh? The map shows Vinland as an island because it's Newfoundland and Newfoundland is an island. The province people commonly refer to as "Newfoundland" is more properly known as "Newfoundland and Labrador", Labrador being the mainland part of the province (possibly what the Norse called "Markland", as your article noted) and Newfoundland being the island of Newfoundland (site of the only Norse village in North America outside of Greenland).
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Newfoundland is one possible site - there are a number of proposed locations in that area, down to Massachusetts. In addition, Newfoundland island is only 17 miles off the coast of Labrador, so it's not really relevant - if they'd explored Newfoundland, or sailed round it, they would clearly have been aware of the much larger land mass.
Anyway, even though the map is not to a fixed scale, the 'island' couldn't really be Newfoundland - it's the size of most of western europe!
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Newfoundland is one possible site
Newfoundland is the only site in the Americas where actual Viking artifacts and remains of a building were found: L'Anse aux Meadows [wikipedia.org]
As for the map, there really wasn't any need for physical analysis of it to know that it cannot be genuine, as it contains information that was unknowable in the 15th century. According to the wikipedia page, the writing on the map also contains anachronisms. Did someone take a genuine map and add Japan, Australia and Newfoundland, or was it a complete forgery from the ground u
Re:hm (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Might want to check those facts of yours (Score:5, Informative)
As for the map, there really wasn't any need for physical analysis of it to know that it cannot be genuine, as it contains information that was unknowable in the 15th century. According to the wikipedia page, the writing on the map also contains anachronisms. Did someone take a genuine map and add Japan, Australia and Newfoundland, or was it a complete forgery from the ground up?
Information that was unknowable? What information?
If you'd bother to look at the map which is part of the Wikipedia article linked in this article, you'd see, there is no Australia on that map. As far as Japan. Japan was certainly known. You know from the Silk road trade routes with China and the spice routes that existed back into antiquity. You know those primitives like the Greeks and Romans and earlier civilizations that all had trade with China. Ever heard of Marco Polo (1254-1324), who lived in the 13th and 14th centuries? He went to China and knew of Japan. Japan was written about as early as his visit and his story was widely and wildly popular in Europe. So to say it was unknowable that Japan existed is the exact opposite of what is true. It would have been almost impossible to NOT know about Japan in the 15th century. I see nothing on the map that was unknowable in the 15th century.
I guess this is part of the reason why you are NOT an expert on ancient maps and forgeries. Although, the first thing that I thought of was, maybe someone added Vinland to a genuine 15th century map. I'm no expert, but if I were that'd be on the things I'd spend five years trying to (dis/)prove.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Good points, well made, and I agree.
Also, on a more fundamental level, all things that are true and affect our reality are knowable. Using the word unknowable to mean "I don't understand how they could have found out" is an abuse of logic.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
" It was not uncommon in the 19th and 20th century, with the emergence of the nation state and nationalism, to forge artifacts with the intention to make ones ancestors look smarter and more important than they really were. Not just in Europe. The Kensington Runestone is an example from the US, and mr Shinichi Fujimura planted forged stone tools in an attempt to 'prove' that human civilization must have started in Japan."
Look at the Prince Madoc story - A prince of Wales, Madoc, left Glamorgan county in 11
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"if it's genuine, what does that tell of this "vinland"? maybe i've got it wrong, but it's written as if it's in the middle of the ocean."
Well, with our current geographical knowledge, what's west of Iceland? I'd say it's a mass of land in the middle of the ocean. Certainly it's a bit bigger than how it's depicted in that map (it might be that vikings didn't have the time to visit it all around, you know, America is quite big), but it *is* a landmass in the middle of the ocean.
Re: (Score:2)
You forgot to mention how he obtained it from the Thule Society.
Re:J. Lawrence Whitten... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Fake. (Score:5, Insightful)
Zoom in on the actual southern coast of England. It looks like a hastily drawn zigzag. England must be fake.
In all seriousness, if authentic, the map predates the effective computation of longitude. You notice how the East/West elements of the map are stretched and skewed, far more than the North/South elements? You try accurately illustrating a fairly complex coastline when you can't say where you are on the East/West axis except by dead reckoning.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Note: the map predates the *known* effective computation of longitude. The Vikings could probably do it. Of course, they didn't try to sail across the middle like some impulsive Italian trader apparently did without thinking in advance: "hmm. maybe hitting islands along the way that I know about would be easier."
Re:Fake. (Score:5, Insightful)
You're saying the Vikings managed to develop clocks that could work at sea, didn't tell anyone, and then forgot about it for 500 years? Because prior to GPS, that was *still* the only way to get an accurate reading on longitude. Yes, there are other methods, but they don't work at sea, they only work at the time of known planetary events, and they are crude even when used correctly (far too crude to provide the resolution needed for detailed coastlines).
And yet somehow, the Vikings could "probably" do it. With no supporting evidence whatsoever, you leap to "probably." Wow... Just wow...
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not claiming that the Vikings actually pulled this off, but there were accurate celestial clocks available in antiquity. Gavin Menzies described the method in his book about early Chinese exploration, 1421. Off topic, but this is how it works:
0. Develop the ability to predict lunar eclipses.
1. Draw a crappy map using the stars to determine your latitude and speed over water to determine your longitude.
2. Build and staff celestial observatories along the coast at intervals.
3. Note the star that transits
Re:Fake. (Score:4, Informative)
Note: the map predates the *known* effective computation of longitude. The Vikings could probably do it. Of course, they didn't try to sail across the middle like some impulsive Italian trader apparently did without thinking in advance: "hmm. maybe hitting islands along the way that I know about would be easier."
You are under the impression that Columbus was acting on impulse? He didn't just happen to have three well supplied ships and crew.
The Turkish empire was in control of the land route to India and China, and the Portuguese seemed in control of any eastern route around Africa. Like astronomers and scientists did at the time, Columbus knew the earth was round, and knew he could get to 'India' via the western route. He tried to sell this idea to investors in various places, until he found the queen of Spain willing to finance an expedition.
He did underestimate the size of the Earth and thus the length of his journey, even though Eratosthenes [wikipedia.org] had calculated it to reasonable accuracy more than 17 centuries earlier. Going through the middle is simply the shortest route by sail, following the prevailing wind.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Eh? There was no nation of Italy at the time, but Columbus came from the area now known as Italy, as did Vespucci.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
While Genoa is Columbus' most likely birthplace, we are not certain of it. You are as wrong affirming that he came from Italy as the grandparent was by saying that he wasn't.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, I forgot: What when it just was created as a fantasy map, back it those very old times? Like for a cult, where Vinland was some holy place. Very unlikely, yes. But hey, who knows...