The Narrative Fallacy writes "Wired reports that with just a few weeks of training, you can learn to 'see' objects in the dark using echolocation the same way dolphins and bats do. Acoustic expert Juan Antonio Martinez at the University of Alcalá de Henares in Spain has developed a system to teach people how to use echolocation, a skill that could be particularly useful for the blind and for people who work under dark or smoky conditions, like firefighters — or cat burglars. 'Two hours per day for a couple of weeks are enough to distinguish whether you have an object in front of you,' says Martinez. 'Within another couple weeks you can tell the difference between trees and pavement.' To master the art of echolocation, you can begin by making the typical 'sh' sound used to make someone be quiet. Moving a pen in front of the mouth can be noticed right away similar to the phenomenon when traveling in a car with the windows down, which makes it possible to 'hear' gaps in the verge of the road. The next level is to learn how to master 'palate clicks,' special clicks with your tongue and palate that are better than other sounds because they can be made in a uniform way, work at a lower intensity, and don't get drowned out by ambient noise. With the palate click you can learn to recognize slight changes in the way the clicks sound depending on what objects are nearby. 'For all of us in general, this would be a new way of perceiving the world,' says Martinez."
Before the unfortunate accident where I was blinded by a radioactive cylinder that fell off a truck, I could not echolocate. But now I am a successful lawyer by day and a blind but superpowered crimefighter by night. You too can have superpowers but there is a sacrifice to be made. You must avoid Windows.
Originally, Spiderman was bitten by a radioactive spider. In the live-action movies, it was a genetically engineered one.
Are you sure the source of DD's abilities stayed the same in every incarnation?
No, in the original comic - which I own, so let's not dispute this - a radioactive cylinder fell off a truck, hit Matt as a kid and that was the origin story.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday July 04, @08:37PM (#28583803)
...you insensitive clod....and one can't hear much in a working structure fire other than one's SCBA, the sounds of the fire, and your buddy on the hoseline.
Which is why we have flashlights and IR cameras mounted on our helmets.
Echolocation can be learned, just not applied in every low-light environment.
You have IR cams mounted on your helmets? Seriously? We have one per unit officer. What kind?
Agreed though, it would be nice if this were useful. I suppose I could build an ultrasonic device that would enable some of these capabilities -- IF it would be useful (unlikely) and IF I wanted to carry even more shit around with me.
... or he would echolocate the dog, and nothing else. When she hears "ssh" noises, she starts barking defensively to scare off intruders. (The hissy reptilian character of "ssh" probably doesn't help in general.)
So if I had anything to add here, it would be: if it's possible at all that You, Too, Can Learn Echolocation, it's certainly not going to be possible within earshot of my stupid dog.
While I am not sure I could pull off flying at night, I know I could easily use it to avoid walking into walls at night... I've done it. It's far from a big deal. The method of sound generation I used was snapping my fingers, though, and not clicking my mouth which I think would confuse my ears even more since my mouth is connected to my ears. But repeatedly snapping my fingers around my head while stepping forward allowed me to appreciate the changes in acoustics well enough to know where walls and other large objects were. On the other hand, it's not quite good enough to avoid stepping on toys left out by my two year old.
The picture we get from such a technique is no picture at all. To create a picture, we would need a dense array of ears of great sensitivity not unlike a retina. At best you can sense that something is there and perhaps how solid it may be. After all, a curtain would mask echoes while walls do a nice job of bouncing the signals.
Still, I am quite certain that blind people already do this without thinking about it. While they may not intentionally send out "pings" in the form of clicks or snaps, they quite likely hear other signals such as the brush of their feet on the carpet, the knock of their feet on the floor or even the rustling of their clothes or the sound of the air flowing from the HVAC system. All of these things generate enough noise signal the allow the notice of the change of acoustic feedback as one to detect changes in the surroundings.
But repeatedly snapping my fingers around my head while stepping forward allowed me to appreciate the changes in acoustics well enough to know where walls and other large objects were. On the other hand, it's not quite good enough to avoid stepping on toys left out by my two year old.
Normally one would just turn on the lights, as it's less likely to wake the two year old than incessant clicking or snapping of fingers.
Exactly. I can hear my bedpost if I'm pointed the right direction, but it is variable. Hearing the walls is easy. Hearing that barbell you accidentally left on the floor, however. is really hard. Fortunately, your feet have no problem "locating" such things....
The biggest problem with echolocation for humans is not hearing sensitivity or mental ability. It's the fact that our feet don't follow behind our heads except when we're swimming.... We would need a second set of ears on our ankles for echoloca
A simple and profound observation... it somewhat matches the observations of others such as myself citing my son's toys, however, I like the way you put it better... our bodies do not follow our heads during normal travel and so it is ineffective.
On the other hand, it's not quite good enough to avoid stepping on toys left out by my two year old.
Acoustic expert Juan Antonio Martinez at the University of Alcalà de Henares in Spain says it takes 'Two hours per day for a couple of weeks' to learn echolocation. On the other had, we have the toddler, for which it takes at least 18 years to learn to clean up his garbage after him.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday July 04, @08:43PM (#28583817)
This would be utterly useless for firefighters as they all wear SCBA which requires a full face mask. Further more your ability to hear those clicks are again reduced by gear over your ears, radio chatter and the often very dense smoke around you soaks up large volumes of noise.
This would take serious adaptation to make it even remotely feasible for someone in that scenario. If you're on a hose crew you can just outright forget it all together.
I remember reading a while ago that Delta Blues musician Blind Willie McTell [wikipedia.org] could do this, I always assumed that it was just another weird blues legend, but I'm absolutely stunned to find that it might have been true. Maybe Robert Johnson really did sell his soul to the Devil.
Maybe Robert Johnson really did sell his soul to the Devil.
The apocryphal part of that legend isn't that Robert Johnson sold his soul, it's that he sold his soul to the devil. He actually sold it to a nerdy little dweeb with blue hair for $5. After that he had a hard time going through automatic doors.
read Slashdot on LCD by using Echolocation....never success yet, and found that listen to the RSS clip read aloud by the robotic overload works much better.
What about chirping instead of clicking? Clicking is good because it's short, but because it's short it's low powered, whereas if you chirp then you have more power coming out. I wonder how that'd work out for human echolocation too.
I remember seeing a story on Dateline or 20/20 a while back about several blind people who are already using this method of echolocation. One of them, a young boy, taught himself to see with sound by listening to how a desktop fan changed sound when he spoke into it. Now he can ride a bike around his neighborhood, navigate, avoid cars, etc.
I'm not sure if this is the boy you're referring to, but here [youtube.com] is a documentary about a young boy named Ben Underwood [wikipedia.org] who is blind and has taught himself echo location [wikipedia.org]. It is pretty amazing.
Actually an earlier and probably more impressive example would be the case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Holman [wikipedia.org] who in the early and mid 19th century travelled around the world using echolocation.
It's not really important that its new or not. Everyone bemoaning this article so far has done so because they "heard" of a few people doing it. Well that really doesn't help the masses. To do that you need a way to reproduce the technique for other people who could use to learn it. The point is they developed a system to TEACH it, not just the method of echolocation itself.
I've navigated my entire house in pitch blackness. Ever tried to find a flashlight when the power goes out, it's pouring rain outside, at night (no stars, moon, or other ambient light)? Footsteps on wood floors are interesting, even without shoes. I remembered most of my environment, but could hear if I was going to miss a doorway by a few inches (or feet). Constant calls from a known location (like, the wife yelling "Did you find a flashlight yet!") helped anchor my distance and relative angle, and added to the echos to hear. Things like couches deadened the echo. I found it easier to close my eyes while I was doing it, even though it didn't matter because I couldn't see anyways.
Most of the time was environment recognition. I knew something should be at such a distance ahead of me. Not magic, nor echolocation, just the simply knowing my environment. I was pretty good at it, although I did occasionally fall short on things because I was taking smaller steps rather than finding myself face down on the floor because something was out of place.
I do this every night. The light switch is beside the door. There is no good place to put a lamp beside the bed, and I don't want a nightlight, so I turn off the lights, get undressed, and walk to bed without being able to see anything. I get a good reference of the room before I do it, so I don't have to wonder "Was the computer chair pushed in, or sitting out?"
I'm saddened by your narrow world-view. You honestly do not think it's possible to fine-tune your brain to automatically discern variances in reflected sounds, in much the same way that it has been doing it for thousands of years?
I thought this 'story' was sensationalist as it was kind of obvious to me. Thus I was very surprised to find your post.
I'm saddened by your narrow world-view. You honestly do not think it's possible to fine-tune your brain to automatically discern variances in reflected sounds, in much the same way that it has been doing it for thousands of years?
I thought this 'story' was sensationalist as it was kind of obvious to me. Thus I was very surprised to find your post.
Kinda makes you wonder what his skull sounds like under echo-location.
That's pretty awesome. And I thought I had a pretty good ability to use ambient sound, he just blows everything else away. I have hearing out in the higher frequency range (and as a result I think, my LF hearing stinks) so I can use a tv set in a room to sound out the room and hallways etc nearby, even behind closed doors. Unfortunately not many can hear up into the range of the flybacks on TVs. I bet if Ben could hear up in there he could carry around a sound generator on his belt or something and woul
I've seen documentaries on Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, and UFO's. Does that mean I should believe all the crap that's spewed about them? If they are real, there has been so many bogus accounts put out there, you'd never know when the truth was presented.
And yes, that was el Chupacabra that you saw outside your window last night. Beware! It's going to eat your goat, and then eat your SOUL!:)
My mother used to teach children who are both deaf and blind. They used taxies quite a bit to move children between home and school. One day the taxi driver got the destination totally wrong. The child knew straight away they were going the wrong way and tried to tell the driver but unfortunately the driver assumed he knew better and kept going.
Without sight and hearing you still have a lot of input from your senses. Your skin can detect photons (nice and warm sitting here in the sun) and vibration (hapti
Wasn't this the same kid that claimed he could play video games through sound alone?
If not, I at least remember one kid playing SNES on the news who was 'completely blind' and clicking at a TV screen. I wanted to kick the news reporter for being a fool and getting trolled.
innate? (Score:2, Interesting)
I noticed I unconsciouly tongue-click when looking for stuff. Shrug.
"Now where did I put it <click> <click> <click>"
Have to be a daredevil to be successful at this (Score:5, Funny)
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Are you the governor of New York state?
Seems only fair that if California gets the Terminator New York would get superhero - although I would have expected it to be Batman.
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radioactive cylinder
Actually, it was a cylinder of biological waste.
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Are you sure the source of DD's abilities stayed the same in every incarnation?
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superpowers (Score:2)
You too can have superpowers but there is a sacrifice to be made. You must avoid Windows.
Is that you, Steve Jobs?
Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
This is exactly what I've been looking for: Something else to do while I'm sitting alone in the dark.
Catburglars? (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, sneaking around the dark house at night screaming at the walls to find your way around. The epitome of stealth!
I am a firefighter (Score:5, Interesting)
...you insensitive clod. ...and one can't hear much in a working structure fire other than one's SCBA, the sounds of the fire, and your buddy on the hoseline.
Which is why we have flashlights and IR cameras mounted on our helmets.
Echolocation can be learned, just not applied in every low-light environment.
I am a cat burglar (Score:5, Funny)
...you insensitive clod. ...and screeching while stealing stuff is generally considered a bad idea in my profession.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It's a good thing my dog wasn't nearby... (Score:3, Interesting)
So if I had anything to add here, it would be: if it's possible at all that You, Too, Can Learn Echolocation, it's certainly not going to be possible within earshot of my stupid dog.
Done that myself (Score:5, Interesting)
While I am not sure I could pull off flying at night, I know I could easily use it to avoid walking into walls at night... I've done it. It's far from a big deal. The method of sound generation I used was snapping my fingers, though, and not clicking my mouth which I think would confuse my ears even more since my mouth is connected to my ears. But repeatedly snapping my fingers around my head while stepping forward allowed me to appreciate the changes in acoustics well enough to know where walls and other large objects were. On the other hand, it's not quite good enough to avoid stepping on toys left out by my two year old.
The picture we get from such a technique is no picture at all. To create a picture, we would need a dense array of ears of great sensitivity not unlike a retina. At best you can sense that something is there and perhaps how solid it may be. After all, a curtain would mask echoes while walls do a nice job of bouncing the signals.
Still, I am quite certain that blind people already do this without thinking about it. While they may not intentionally send out "pings" in the form of clicks or snaps, they quite likely hear other signals such as the brush of their feet on the carpet, the knock of their feet on the floor or even the rustling of their clothes or the sound of the air flowing from the HVAC system. All of these things generate enough noise signal the allow the notice of the change of acoustic feedback as one to detect changes in the surroundings.
Re:Done that myself (Score:5, Insightful)
But repeatedly snapping my fingers around my head while stepping forward allowed me to appreciate the changes in acoustics well enough to know where walls and other large objects were. On the other hand, it's not quite good enough to avoid stepping on toys left out by my two year old.
Normally one would just turn on the lights, as it's less likely to wake the two year old than incessant clicking or snapping of fingers.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Doing it for large objects is between easy and effortless.
Doing it for small objects is hard.
I keep colliding into small, hard objects I don't know the location of if I try to navigate by sound in the dark.
And after that I usually swear, so others can locate me in the dark.
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Exactly. I can hear my bedpost if I'm pointed the right direction, but it is variable. Hearing the walls is easy. Hearing that barbell you accidentally left on the floor, however. is really hard. Fortunately, your feet have no problem "locating" such things....
The biggest problem with echolocation for humans is not hearing sensitivity or mental ability. It's the fact that our feet don't follow behind our heads except when we're swimming.... We would need a second set of ears on our ankles for echoloca
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A simple and profound observation... it somewhat matches the observations of others such as myself citing my son's toys, however, I like the way you put it better ... our bodies do not follow our heads during normal travel and so it is ineffective.
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We would need a second set of ears on our ankles for echolocation to be practical.
The delivery room doctor told my mother it was a "defect".
-
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On the other hand, it's not quite good enough to avoid stepping on toys left out by my two year old.
Acoustic expert Juan Antonio Martinez at the University of Alcalà de Henares in Spain says it takes 'Two hours per day for a couple of weeks' to learn echolocation. On the other had, we have the toddler, for which it takes at least 18 years to learn to clean up his garbage after him.
Wouldn't work for firefighters (Score:5, Insightful)
This would be utterly useless for firefighters as they all wear SCBA which requires a full face mask. Further more your ability to hear those clicks are again reduced by gear over your ears, radio chatter and the often very dense smoke around you soaks up large volumes of noise.
This would take serious adaptation to make it even remotely feasible for someone in that scenario. If you're on a hose crew you can just outright forget it all together.
Blind Wille McTell (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe Robert Johnson really did sell his soul to the Devil.
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Maybe Robert Johnson really did sell his soul to the Devil.
The apocryphal part of that legend isn't that Robert Johnson sold his soul, it's that he sold his soul to the devil. He actually sold it to a nerdy little dweeb with blue hair for $5. After that he had a hard time going through automatic doors.
Now we can answer the age old question ... (Score:2)
Of course actually knowing the answer to the question itself may not help address the philosophical issues raised by the question.
Dyslexic title (Score:2)
Why can't we have more "Stuff That Matters" articles on chocolate?
I was trying... (Score:2)
read Slashdot on LCD by using Echolocation....never success yet, and found that listen to the RSS clip read aloud by the robotic overload works much better.
And to learn a bit more. . . . (Score:2, Informative)
There's a rather more informative article about it here [sciencedaily.com].
Clickers? (Score:2)
That is actually the secondary usefulness of a cane (after visibility). You can make tappy-sounds without attracting undue attention.
Echo-location? How about fins? (Score:2)
Chirping (Score:2)
What about chirping instead of clicking? Clicking is good because it's short, but because it's short it's low powered, whereas if you chirp then you have more power coming out. I wonder how that'd work out for human echolocation too.
Re:No duh (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure if this is the boy you're referring to, but here [youtube.com] is a documentary about a young boy named Ben Underwood [wikipedia.org] who is blind and has taught himself echo location [wikipedia.org]. It is pretty amazing.
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Who? What did he do?
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Wrote books about whisky and beer.
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Actually an earlier and probably more impressive example would be the case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Holman [wikipedia.org] who in the early and mid 19th century travelled around the world using echolocation.
Re:No duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
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Right. On top of that, the magic bean we traded it all for - the internet - isn't even real. You can't hug an internet. We're fucked.
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the internet isn't even real. You can't hug an internet. We're fucked.
Or, more to the point, you aren't.
Re:No duh (Score:5, Interesting)
I've navigated my entire house in pitch blackness. Ever tried to find a flashlight when the power goes out, it's pouring rain outside, at night (no stars, moon, or other ambient light)? Footsteps on wood floors are interesting, even without shoes. I remembered most of my environment, but could hear if I was going to miss a doorway by a few inches (or feet). Constant calls from a known location (like, the wife yelling "Did you find a flashlight yet!") helped anchor my distance and relative angle, and added to the echos to hear. Things like couches deadened the echo. I found it easier to close my eyes while I was doing it, even though it didn't matter because I couldn't see anyways.
Most of the time was environment recognition. I knew something should be at such a distance ahead of me. Not magic, nor echolocation, just the simply knowing my environment. I was pretty good at it, although I did occasionally fall short on things because I was taking smaller steps rather than finding myself face down on the floor because something was out of place.
I do this every night. The light switch is beside the door. There is no good place to put a lamp beside the bed, and I don't want a nightlight, so I turn off the lights, get undressed, and walk to bed without being able to see anything. I get a good reference of the room before I do it, so I don't have to wonder "Was the computer chair pushed in, or sitting out?"
Parent
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I'm saddened by your narrow world-view. You honestly do not think it's possible to fine-tune your brain to automatically discern variances in reflected sounds, in much the same way that it has been doing it for thousands of years?
I thought this 'story' was sensationalist as it was kind of obvious to me. Thus I was very surprised to find your post.
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Re: (Score:2)
I'm saddened by your narrow world-view. You honestly do not think it's possible to fine-tune your brain to automatically discern variances in reflected sounds, in much the same way that it has been doing it for thousands of years?
I thought this 'story' was sensationalist as it was kind of obvious to me. Thus I was very surprised to find your post.
Kinda makes you wonder what his skull sounds like under echo-location.
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> in much the same way that it has been doing it for _thousands_ of years?
Easy for you to say Mr Vampire Man.
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This seems extremely unlikely, and most probably pseudoscience.
It's no pseudo-science. Unfortunately they leave out some facts, like the fact that it only works for people who are born with antennae.
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That's pretty awesome. And I thought I had a pretty good ability to use ambient sound, he just blows everything else away. I have hearing out in the higher frequency range (and as a result I think, my LF hearing stinks) so I can use a tv set in a room to sound out the room and hallways etc nearby, even behind closed doors. Unfortunately not many can hear up into the range of the flybacks on TVs. I bet if Ben could hear up in there he could carry around a sound generator on his belt or something and woul
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I've seen documentaries on Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, and UFO's. Does that mean I should believe all the crap that's spewed about them? If they are real, there has been so many bogus accounts put out there, you'd never know when the truth was presented.
And yes, that was el Chupacabra that you saw outside your window last night. Beware! It's going to eat your goat, and then eat your SOUL! :)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Without sight and hearing you still have a lot of input from your senses. Your skin can detect photons (nice and warm sitting here in the sun) and vibration (hapti
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Wasn't this the same kid that claimed he could play video games through sound alone?
If not, I at least remember one kid playing SNES on the news who was 'completely blind' and clicking at a TV screen. I wanted to kick the news reporter for being a fool and getting trolled.