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Comments: 139 +-   35,000-Year-Old Flute Is Oldest Music Instrument Ever Found on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:40PM

Posted by timothy on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:40PM
from the old-earth-theory dept.
music
media
science
Omomyid writes "The AFP is reporting the discovery of a 35,000 year-old flute, made from a vulture wing bone. The context described makes it sound like a musician's shop. There were also fragments of ivory-based flutes and flint tools. Being at least 35KYO this bone flute beats the previous oldest-known musical instrument by at least 5,000 years and puts it very close to the beginning of the Aurignacian culture."
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  • My Heavens! (Score:5, Funny)

    by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:43PM (#28456405) Journal
    That flute is -29,000 years old!
  • Interesting! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by squiggly12 (1298191) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:43PM (#28456415) Journal
    It makes a person wonder just how long ago music was enjoyed (besides whistling or singing) or did we just grunt our way around?
    • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by causality (777677) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:46PM (#28456475)

      It makes a person wonder just how long ago music was enjoyed (besides whistling or singing) or did we just grunt our way around?

      The more I learn about the subject, the more convinced I am that the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that we often imagine them to be.

      • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2009, @02:04PM (#28456741)

        Or that we are not the sophisticated advanced species we often imagine us to be?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        > The more I learn about the subject, the more convinced I am that
        > the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that
        > we often imagine them to be.

        G. K. Chesterton's The Everlasting Man [amazon.com] has some thoughts along the same lines. From this page [wikilivres.info]:

        It may be that in certain savage tribes the chief is called the Old Man and nobody is allowed to touch his spear or sit on his seat. It may be that in those cases he is surrounded with superstitious and traditional terrors; and it may be that in those c

      • the more convinced I am that the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that we often imagine them to be.

              A quick trip to the countryside (of any nation) should change your mind. There are still plenty of unsophisticated primitives hanging around, and most of them would have no idea what to do with this rudimentary instrument besides scratch their backs with it.

        • And none of the unsophisticated primitives you mention are more than 140 years old (I'm being very generous). That's some pretty big extrapolation you're relying on there.

          Besides, the coexistence of "primitives" and "moderns" today, indeed throughout recorded history, would tend to imply that there was such a variety then as well, would it not?

      • For what it's worth, the New York Times article [nytimes.com] about it has an audio clip of a replica being played. I think it sounds surprisingly good.

        Friedrich Seeberger, a German specialist in ancient music, reproduced the ivory flute in wood. Experimenting with the replica, he found that the ancient flute produced a range of notes comparable in many ways to modern flutes. "The tones are quite harmonic," he said.

      • "that we often imagine them to be."

        Speak for yourself. I have always envied them their mammoth hunting skils, their survival training and their fluent Indo-European. Hell, man, anyone who can pronounce words like "gnhjotam" or "wlnexmi" without asphyxiating deserves some respect.

      • A number of people think music co-evolved with language, but not sure why. Harvard Prof Pinker calls music an epiphenomenom- something that came along with the ride along with other more important cognitive abilities.

        Music ability appears to occupy other parts of the brain than language. Brain damage- (strokes, lesion) may damage one ability, but not the other. Some stutterers can sing or chant verse without stuttering.
      • It makes a person wonder just how long ago music was enjoyed (besides whistling or singing) or did we just grunt our way around?

        The more I learn about the subject, the more convinced I am that the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that we often imagine them to be.

        They really weren't. Well, at least, some of them weren't. That's why you should respect your elders. ;-)

        • Re:Interesting! (Score:4, Informative)

          by BlackCreek (1004083) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @02:27PM (#28457085)

          There's little reason to believe that our ancestors, going quite far back, had any less inherent intellectual, cultural or social capacity than us. (Other than what we might have from superior nutrition, health, etc. See Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel for that...)

          Jared's "The Third Chimpanzee" goes about how humans branched off and took a separate path from the "other chimps". In it he also goes speculates about how and when we took our great leap forward.

          While Guns Germs and Steel seemed a more insightful book, The Third Chimpanzee goes exactly about the evolutionary differentiation that made us, how different (or not) we are from chimps and other mammals, and about the plausible evolutionary explanations for these differences.

        • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Interesting)

          by snl2587 (1177409) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @02:29PM (#28457117)

          But what's really interesting about this flute is that the harmonics are very close to a modern-day flute - 35,000 years later! There is a sample of the recreated sound right now on the New York Times website (permalink [nytimes.com])...

          • Almost like the laws of physics haven't changed at all!

            Same size shaft, holes, and lengths will produce nearly the same frequency.
            Add to it that there is a range which most people find pleasant, and it's not surprise at all.

            • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by NotBornYesterday (1093817) * on Wednesday June 24 2009, @03:44PM (#28458307) Journal
              I think you miss the point. The old flute sounds close to modern flutes. When you consider the broad range of instruments and musical scales (think "non-western") in the world, having prehistoric and modern instruments whose notes are "quite harmonic" falls somewhere between interesting and amazing.

              When you say "... most people find pleasant...", you are right on the edge of a rather profound idea. The laws of physics haven't changed, but people certainly have. Does this mean that what they found pleasant and what we find pleasant are similar? Does that mean that musical perception is largely unchanged in the last 35 millenia?
          • But what's really interesting about this flute is that the harmonics are very close to a modern-day flute - 35,000 years later!

            Brass and wood-wind musical instruments are substantially influenced by the player. A person with no pitch can't play a flute well, for example, though they could still be a good violinist.

            It's likely any tonal similarities are due to the modern musician's training, rather than the instrument itself.

          • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)

            For awhile now I've been wondering about the connection between music and religion. For several thousand years, the most common place to hear a serious musical performance was at a religious ceremony. (Unless you were nobility)
             
            A pipe organ in a cathedral is a staggeringly amazing experience even for those of us able to find and listen to recordings ahead of time. Imagine the reaction of the poor common folk who had nothing but a reed flute and some singing in a grass hut to prepare them for it.
             
            As much as video killed the radio star, I wonder how much recorded music killed religion. (See the Taliban, who ban it, for instance.)

          • Re:Interesting! (Score:4, Insightful)

            by bcrowell (177657) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @05:56PM (#28460147) Homepage

            But what's really interesting about this flute is that the harmonics are very close to a modern-day flute - 35,000 years later! There is a sample of the recreated sound right now on the New York Times website

            Thanks for the cool link :-) You're misusing the terminology a little -- the original NYT article is more correct.

            Every sound can be broken down into a sum of sine waves. Usually, for basic physical reasons, those sine waves have frequencies that are all integer multiples (or nearly integer multiples) of the fundamental frequency. When they have this integer-multiple relationship, they're called "harmonics;" the more general term for the case where they're not integer multiples (anharmonic) is "partials." Any wind instrument that's made out of an air column is going to have integer-multiple harmonics, not anharmonic partials. So when you say that the harmonics are close to a modern flute, that's not really a useful statement; trivially, for physical reasons, any tone played on any wind instrument is going to have the same harmonics as the same note played on any other wind instrument. The only thing that will be different is the strengths of the harmonics.

            What the expert quoted in the NYT article says is "The tones are quite harmonic." This is a different statement. It means that if you had two flutes like this one, and you played combinations of notes, they would sound good together. This has to do with how the scale is constructed. He also doesn't say the scale is the same as any particular modern one, just that it's a scale that sounds good in relation to itself.

            The only cross-cultural universal we see today is that all cultures have what's called octave identification, meaning that, e.g., middle C and the C an octave above it are perceived as being similar, and able to play the same musical function. Most cultures don't have harmony at all -- that's mainly a function of Western music. Different cultures generally don't use the same scales. E.g., Beethoven, a Javanese gamelan orchestra, and a Delta blues musician use different scales in different ways. It wouldn't even make sense to interpret the expert's quote as saying that the scale is the same as today's scale, there's more than one scale used today.

            Unfortunately I couldn't get the sound widget to play in my browser.

          • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Ripit (1001534) on Thursday June 25 2009, @02:08AM (#28463585)
            Disclaimer - IAPOM. I am a professional orchestral musician.

            "Harmonics" doesn't really mean anything in this sense. Flutes don't play two notes simultaneously, so there is no harmony. This flute is capable of playing at least 5 distinct pitches, or at least 10 if you count overblowing to get a higher octave. The notes in the example [nytimes.com] are Eb, F, G, Bb, and C, which is a pentatonic [wikipedia.org] scale.

            This is the most amazing thing to me. The pentatonic scale's pitches have the simple frequency ratios of 1:9/8:5/4:3/2:5/3. Instruments designed to play this scale have been found almost everywhere humans play music. The person that made this instrument perceived, through sound, these simple mathematical ratios. 35,000 years ago, humans had already discovered the beauty in mathematics.

            Also, I can draw the conclusion that the person that made this flute had made flutes previously, or learned from someone who did. The chances of gouging holes in a bone at random and having a very accurate pentatonic scale along with a serviceable embouchure hole in the end product is vanishingly small. This skill is learned by trial and error or instruction. This opens up more questions. If the maker of this flute didn't invent the pentatonic scale, who did? How old is the scale?
        • Almost like entertainment TV and movies got it wrong..shocking~

          "Hell, I remember one of my history books from middle school claimed Neanderthals had the mental capacity of a 10-year-old.
          The mental capacity of a 10 year old is far greater then people seem to imagine.
          Hell, the other day I got a 50mW 532nm laser, and my 8 year old looked at a spinning fan and asked if the laser could be used to measure the fans speed.
          I said yes and she said Then it can be used to measure the speed of the laser.

          The hole convers

    • Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by moon3 (1530265) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @02:34PM (#28457191)
      Pity TFA lacks more detail about the tonality. It would be interesting to know what notes it could produce, and what intervals, possibly indicating whether they leaned to minor or major scale for example..
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:44PM (#28456433)

    This one time, 35,000 years ago at band camp...

  • But then, we got those when we rode dinosaurs with Jesus.

    Mind you, it was hard lugging around a large mammoth flute.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:55PM (#28456625)

    It is the oldest for the Homo sapiens, but there were flutes found on Neanderthal sites, much older flutes.
    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/376813/neanderthal_flute_the_oldest_musical.html

    • by dgatwood (11270) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @02:27PM (#28457087) Journal

      Mod parent up. Assuming that the linked article is correct, this recent find is at least 8,000 years newer than the oldest known flute, and possibly as much as 47,000 years newer. Of course, this may be the oldest definitively dated flute.

      What is fascinating about this is that it gives you just how far back primitive man was creating complex artistic works. I'm sure there are other instruments of similar vintage---drums and the like---though they may not have survived the years since. The funny part will be when scientists discover that they've underestimated the age of the xylophone family by the better part of a million years. :-) I mean really, if something requiring as much carving as a flute goes back 80,000 years, how absurd is it to believe that something as simple as a bunch of sticks cut to different lengths only goes back to 2,000 B.C.?

      • What is really fascinating about this is for how long our species was almost stagnant (from out point of view).

        And how rapidly we advance nowadays. What are the factors? Are we really nearing to tech singularity?

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            Actually most studies have shown that hunter-gatherer societies have a lot more leisure time than industrial or agrarian societies. On average, they might spend 2-4 hours per day procuring food, compared to 12 or more hours per day in an agrarian society, or 6-10 in an industrial society. Instead, there are a couple things that one should consider. First, look at the line plotted by an exponential curve. It starts very flat, then rises very quickly. Assuming that "progress" (however you measure it) is
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        And I hate to be a tedious [citation needed] asshat, but I do wonder if there's any chance of a better cite than a three paragraph article on a self-publishing website?
  • by B5_geek (638928) on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:57PM (#28456661)

    I understand that this could be considered definitive proof of an 'instrument', but surely they don't discount that beating two sticks together can be considered as being musical either.

    Consider this: prehistoric man had to be MORE intelligent to survive then modern man. If all electrical devices stop working tomorrow, a significant % of the population will be dead within 4 weeks.

    • That doesn't point to a difference in intelligence, just a different set of needed skills.

    • prehistoric man had to be MORE intelligent to survive then modern man.

      No, thye did not.

      "..., a significant % of the population will be dead within 4 weeks."
      which has nothing to do with intelligence.

    • I think there's a difference in the level of thinking required to realize that you can bang two sticks together and seeking out a hollow stick of just the right dimensions and cutting holes at the appropriate intervals such that when you force air through it you can control the kind of sound it makes.

      Not that that means you're less intelligent for being happy with banging two sticks together (that's about the degree of musical aptitude I possess), but one obviously takes a little more forethought to produc
  • Cave Geeks? (Score:3, Funny)

    by filesiteguy (695431) <kai@perfectreign.com> on Wednesday June 24 2009, @01:59PM (#28456689) Homepage
    So, does this mean that the term "band geek" was discovered 35,000 years ago?

    I wonder if they wore underwear so that Ogg could give the owner of this flute a wedgie.
  • Psssft. Get back to me when the grad student who dug it out collapses into a coma and lives a lifetime as a paleolithic hunter, then wakes up and can play some good mammoth hunting songs ...
  • There is a serious problem with journalism here. From TFA,

    Nearly 22 centimetres (8.7 inches) long and 2.2 centimetres (one inch) in diameter

    The photograph clearly shows that the object in question is not more than 2/3 the diameter of the person's finger. This is NOT 2.2cm -- it is probably around 10mm to 12mm. So how much of ANY of the rest of the info in this article accurate?

  • So was the discoverer forced to live the life of one of the villagers in a simulation, learning the way of their culture and becoming richer for the experience?

  • to date my bone flute.
    *giggity*

    How did they know it was a flute? There were carvings on the wall from people whining they could ahve done it better/

    How did they get two flutes in tune? they bashed the skull in of one of the bone flautists.

    Why did the neanderthal go extinct? to get away from the flute recital.

    How many bone Flautists did it taker to start a fire? 2 one to do it and another to push them into the fire.

    What do you call a flute that's been buried for 35000 years? A good start.

    2 flutists ride a mammoth over a cliff, what's the tragedy? you can fit 4 flutists on a mammoth.

    I can go on, but unlike a flautists I know when to stop.

    • You won't find any - that was before we got it in our heads that music was something to be written down, analyzed, and repeated ;)

It's clever, but is it art?