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My Heavens! (Score:5, Funny)
I doubt it's the oldest (Score:4, Funny)
I bet people have been playing the skin flute for far longer
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Oblig YEC reesponse (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Oblig YEC reesponse (Score:4, Funny)
agreed. and if you listen to the 35,000 year old flute music backwards, you can hear satanic incantations hidden by "backwards boneflute masking"
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Re:Oblig YEC reesponse (Score:5, Funny)
And if you filmed the discovery of this flute and play it backwards, you see a team of scientist burying a flute for 35,000 years only to have it discovered by some primitive human, who then picks it up and starts playing it....
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Minor correction (Score:3, Funny)
"...who then picks it up and starts playing it....badly"
Interesting! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)
It makes a person wonder just how long ago music was enjoyed (besides whistling or singing) or did we just grunt our way around?
The more I learn about the subject, the more convinced I am that the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that we often imagine them to be.
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Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)
Or that we are not the sophisticated advanced species we often imagine us to be?
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> The more I learn about the subject, the more convinced I am that
> the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that
> we often imagine them to be.
G. K. Chesterton's The Everlasting Man [amazon.com] has some thoughts along the same lines. From this page [wikilivres.info]:
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the more convinced I am that the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that we often imagine them to be.
A quick trip to the countryside (of any nation) should change your mind. There are still plenty of unsophisticated primitives hanging around, and most of them would have no idea what to do with this rudimentary instrument besides scratch their backs with it.
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And none of the unsophisticated primitives you mention are more than 140 years old (I'm being very generous). That's some pretty big extrapolation you're relying on there.
Besides, the coexistence of "primitives" and "moderns" today, indeed throughout recorded history, would tend to imply that there was such a variety then as well, would it not?
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Friedrich Seeberger, a German specialist in ancient music, reproduced the ivory flute in wood. Experimenting with the replica, he found that the ancient flute produced a range of notes comparable in many ways to modern flutes. "The tones are quite harmonic," he said.
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Speak for yourself. I have always envied them their mammoth hunting skils, their survival training and their fluent Indo-European. Hell, man, anyone who can pronounce words like "gnhjotam" or "wlnexmi" without asphyxiating deserves some respect.
evolution of musical ability is open question (Score:2)
Music ability appears to occupy other parts of the brain than language. Brain damage- (strokes, lesion) may damage one ability, but not the other. Some stutterers can sing or chant verse without stuttering.
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It makes a person wonder just how long ago music was enjoyed (besides whistling or singing) or did we just grunt our way around?
The more I learn about the subject, the more convinced I am that the ancients were not the unsophisticated primitives that we often imagine them to be.
They really weren't. Well, at least, some of them weren't. That's why you should respect your elders. ;-)
Re:Interesting! (Score:4, Informative)
There's little reason to believe that our ancestors, going quite far back, had any less inherent intellectual, cultural or social capacity than us. (Other than what we might have from superior nutrition, health, etc. See Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel for that...)
Jared's "The Third Chimpanzee" goes about how humans branched off and took a separate path from the "other chimps". In it he also goes speculates about how and when we took our great leap forward.
While Guns Germs and Steel seemed a more insightful book, The Third Chimpanzee goes exactly about the evolutionary differentiation that made us, how different (or not) we are from chimps and other mammals, and about the plausible evolutionary explanations for these differences.
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Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Interesting)
But what's really interesting about this flute is that the harmonics are very close to a modern-day flute - 35,000 years later! There is a sample of the recreated sound right now on the New York Times website (permalink [nytimes.com])...
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Almost like the laws of physics haven't changed at all!
Same size shaft, holes, and lengths will produce nearly the same frequency.
Add to it that there is a range which most people find pleasant, and it's not surprise at all.
Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)
When you say "... most people find pleasant...", you are right on the edge of a rather profound idea. The laws of physics haven't changed, but people certainly have. Does this mean that what they found pleasant and what we find pleasant are similar? Does that mean that musical perception is largely unchanged in the last 35 millenia?
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Brass and wood-wind musical instruments are substantially influenced by the player. A person with no pitch can't play a flute well, for example, though they could still be a good violinist.
It's likely any tonal similarities are due to the modern musician's training, rather than the instrument itself.
Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Insightful)
For awhile now I've been wondering about the connection between music and religion. For several thousand years, the most common place to hear a serious musical performance was at a religious ceremony. (Unless you were nobility)
A pipe organ in a cathedral is a staggeringly amazing experience even for those of us able to find and listen to recordings ahead of time. Imagine the reaction of the poor common folk who had nothing but a reed flute and some singing in a grass hut to prepare them for it.
As much as video killed the radio star, I wonder how much recorded music killed religion. (See the Taliban, who ban it, for instance.)
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Re:Interesting! (Score:4, Insightful)
Thanks for the cool link :-) You're misusing the terminology a little -- the original NYT article is more correct.
Every sound can be broken down into a sum of sine waves. Usually, for basic physical reasons, those sine waves have frequencies that are all integer multiples (or nearly integer multiples) of the fundamental frequency. When they have this integer-multiple relationship, they're called "harmonics;" the more general term for the case where they're not integer multiples (anharmonic) is "partials." Any wind instrument that's made out of an air column is going to have integer-multiple harmonics, not anharmonic partials. So when you say that the harmonics are close to a modern flute, that's not really a useful statement; trivially, for physical reasons, any tone played on any wind instrument is going to have the same harmonics as the same note played on any other wind instrument. The only thing that will be different is the strengths of the harmonics.
What the expert quoted in the NYT article says is "The tones are quite harmonic." This is a different statement. It means that if you had two flutes like this one, and you played combinations of notes, they would sound good together. This has to do with how the scale is constructed. He also doesn't say the scale is the same as any particular modern one, just that it's a scale that sounds good in relation to itself.
The only cross-cultural universal we see today is that all cultures have what's called octave identification, meaning that, e.g., middle C and the C an octave above it are perceived as being similar, and able to play the same musical function. Most cultures don't have harmony at all -- that's mainly a function of Western music. Different cultures generally don't use the same scales. E.g., Beethoven, a Javanese gamelan orchestra, and a Delta blues musician use different scales in different ways. It wouldn't even make sense to interpret the expert's quote as saying that the scale is the same as today's scale, there's more than one scale used today.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the sound widget to play in my browser.
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Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Interesting)
"Harmonics" doesn't really mean anything in this sense. Flutes don't play two notes simultaneously, so there is no harmony. This flute is capable of playing at least 5 distinct pitches, or at least 10 if you count overblowing to get a higher octave. The notes in the example [nytimes.com] are Eb, F, G, Bb, and C, which is a pentatonic [wikipedia.org] scale.
This is the most amazing thing to me. The pentatonic scale's pitches have the simple frequency ratios of 1:9/8:5/4:3/2:5/3. Instruments designed to play this scale have been found almost everywhere humans play music. The person that made this instrument perceived, through sound, these simple mathematical ratios. 35,000 years ago, humans had already discovered the beauty in mathematics.
Also, I can draw the conclusion that the person that made this flute had made flutes previously, or learned from someone who did. The chances of gouging holes in a bone at random and having a very accurate pentatonic scale along with a serviceable embouchure hole in the end product is vanishingly small. This skill is learned by trial and error or instruction. This opens up more questions. If the maker of this flute didn't invent the pentatonic scale, who did? How old is the scale?
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Almost like entertainment TV and movies got it wrong..shocking~
"Hell, I remember one of my history books from middle school claimed Neanderthals had the mental capacity of a 10-year-old.
The mental capacity of a 10 year old is far greater then people seem to imagine.
Hell, the other day I got a 50mW 532nm laser, and my 8 year old looked at a spinning fan and asked if the laser could be used to measure the fans speed.
I said yes and she said Then it can be used to measure the speed of the laser.
The hole convers
Re:Interesting! (Score:5, Interesting)
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This one time (Score:5, Funny)
This one time, 35,000 years ago at band camp...
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... no stairway. denied.
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Come on, this far in and there have been absolutely know "playing the bone flute" jokes?
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My ancestors used mammoth bones (Score:2, Informative)
But then, we got those when we rode dinosaurs with Jesus.
Mind you, it was hard lugging around a large mammoth flute.
Neanderthal invented musical instruments (Score:5, Informative)
It is the oldest for the Homo sapiens, but there were flutes found on Neanderthal sites, much older flutes.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/376813/neanderthal_flute_the_oldest_musical.html
Re:Neanderthal invented musical instruments (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod parent up. Assuming that the linked article is correct, this recent find is at least 8,000 years newer than the oldest known flute, and possibly as much as 47,000 years newer. Of course, this may be the oldest definitively dated flute.
What is fascinating about this is that it gives you just how far back primitive man was creating complex artistic works. I'm sure there are other instruments of similar vintage---drums and the like---though they may not have survived the years since. The funny part will be when scientists discover that they've underestimated the age of the xylophone family by the better part of a million years. :-) I mean really, if something requiring as much carving as a flute goes back 80,000 years, how absurd is it to believe that something as simple as a bunch of sticks cut to different lengths only goes back to 2,000 B.C.?
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What is really fascinating about this is for how long our species was almost stagnant (from out point of view).
And how rapidly we advance nowadays. What are the factors? Are we really nearing to tech singularity?
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Complex vs Simple. (Score:3, Funny)
I understand that this could be considered definitive proof of an 'instrument', but surely they don't discount that beating two sticks together can be considered as being musical either.
Consider this: prehistoric man had to be MORE intelligent to survive then modern man. If all electrical devices stop working tomorrow, a significant % of the population will be dead within 4 weeks.
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That doesn't point to a difference in intelligence, just a different set of needed skills.
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prehistoric man had to be MORE intelligent to survive then modern man.
No, thye did not.
"..., a significant % of the population will be dead within 4 weeks."
which has nothing to do with intelligence.
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Not that that means you're less intelligent for being happy with banging two sticks together (that's about the degree of musical aptitude I possess), but one obviously takes a little more forethought to produc
Cave Geeks? (Score:3, Funny)
I wonder if they wore underwear so that Ogg could give the owner of this flute a wedgie.
Needs some inner light ... (Score:2, Funny)
Journalism sucks (Score:2)
There is a serious problem with journalism here. From TFA,
Nearly 22 centimetres (8.7 inches) long and 2.2 centimetres (one inch) in diameter
The photograph clearly shows that the object in question is not more than 2/3 the diameter of the person's finger. This is NOT 2.2cm -- it is probably around 10mm to 12mm. So how much of ANY of the rest of the info in this article accurate?
Good question (Score:2)
however looking at the original AP story, it doesn't mention the diameter.
Anyways, the general answer to your question is 'check other reasonable sources.'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090624/ap_on_sc/eu_germany_prehistoric_flute [yahoo.com]
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/06/24/international/i100006D91.DTL&tsp=1 [sfgate.com]
Inner Light... (Score:2)
So was the discoverer forced to live the life of one of the villagers in a simulation, learning the way of their culture and becoming richer for the experience?
I'd like some hot chicks (and other flute jokes) (Score:5, Funny)
to date my bone flute.
*giggity*
How did they know it was a flute? There were carvings on the wall from people whining they could ahve done it better/
How did they get two flutes in tune? they bashed the skull in of one of the bone flautists.
Why did the neanderthal go extinct? to get away from the flute recital.
How many bone Flautists did it taker to start a fire? 2 one to do it and another to push them into the fire.
What do you call a flute that's been buried for 35000 years? A good start.
2 flutists ride a mammoth over a cliff, what's the tragedy? you can fit 4 flutists on a mammoth.
I can go on, but unlike a flautists I know when to stop.
Re:Flute (Score:5, Funny)
Fail.
Pelvis was obliterated due to snu-snu.
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"35,000 year old flute found, RIAA proposes extending copyrights to protect original composer's intellectual property"
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You won't find any - that was before we got it in our heads that music was something to be written down, analyzed, and repeated ;)