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Comments: 612 +- Science: One Fifth of World's Population Can't See Milky Way At Night on Tuesday June 09 2009, @10:40AM
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An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Cosmos Magazine: "Light pollution has caused one-fifth of the world's population — mostly in Europe, Britain and the US — to lose their ability to see the Milky Way in the night sky.
'The arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage,' said Connie Walker, and astronomer from the US National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, Arizona.
Yet 'more than one fifth of the world population, two thirds of the US population and one half of the European Union population have already lost naked eye visibility of the Milky Way.'"
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Submission: One-fifth of us have lost sight of Milky Way by Anonymous Coward
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Well... I could. (Score:5, Insightful)
Poor kids, I wish they could see what they are missing.
Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Interesting)
In our last vacation, my four-year old spent at least 30 minutes staring up to the night sky with his mouth open...
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Interesting)
In our last vacation, my four-year old spent at least 30 minutes staring up to the night sky with his mouth open...
I know what you mean. I took our daughters camping just a month ago, and the 2.5 year old asked what all the lights in the sky were. Despite that, being _my_ daughter, she was able to identify the Big Dipper and find Polaris, by herself (thank you Stellarium)! That, at two and a half!
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Interesting)
Once I got up in the mountains a bit I pulled off and just looked at the stars. It was amazing. I must have spent 4 hours out there just looking up.
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Insightful)
I drove out west a few years ago. Took 140 out through southern Oregon. It was just BLACK. No moon, no lights, nothing but starlight.
I have never seen anything quite as beautiful as being on a Navy ship about 2 degrees off the equator and under a new moon, with no light from horizon to horizon but the sky and the phosphorescent bacteria we were churning up. It was one of those things that was so lovely that it almost hurt, as if you couldn't look at it and breath at the same time.
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Insightful)
IHBT, but what the hell:
If you're too "manly" to appreciate beauty, then your life sucks more than your narrow brain can appreciate.
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Funny)
'It was very dark.'
I remember once, while camping, it was so dark, it took three of us to see if the fire was lit.
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Funny)
And no, I don't know what that is in the metric system
American Degrees are called "Degrees" in metric. The conversion factor works like this:
American Degree = d'
Metric Degree = D
D = -(d' * e^(i*pi))
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I can't blame him (Score:5, Interesting)
I did pretty much the same thing. I went camping and saw the milky way for the first time. In my 30's.
Honestly - my first words once I saw it were "What the hell is that?"
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Re:I can't blame him (Score:5, Interesting)
I did an evening class recently in astronomy. The tutor told us a story of a graduate student who went to South America to work at an observatory there.
She was sent outside to check the weather. She came back in and said there was a huge cloud reaching across the sky.
The guy in charge didn't think that sounded right at all, so he went out to check himself.
It was the Milky Way. And the other astronomer had never seen it.
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Informative)
Even just outside Lincoln, not only can you see the Milky Way, but many college kids would ask me what the haze was amidst it...I would just reply, those are the rest of the stars...they always were stunned.
Perhaps this is why kids now adays have such big egos, they don't have to look up and see how insignificant they really are.
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Re:Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Leela: "I don't get it."
Professor: "I'm sorry, rattaroaz, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2008 to end that stupid joke once and for all."
rattaroaz: "Oh. What's it called now?"
Professor: "Urectum."
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Re:Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Rectum? Damn near killed em!
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Funny)
I live in a small town in Finland. Actually at the outskirts of the town. I just love the sensation, when on a clear winter night, I tilt my head back I can see the steam emanating from my body, illuminated by the moon. And after couple of seconds of adjusting can see a clear image of the milky way across the sky.
After this I roll naked in the snow, take a shot of Koskenkorva, yell 'PERRRRKELE' and head back to the sauna. Amazing! =)
(Haha, no need to thank for the mental image!)
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:4, Insightful)
Too much investment to satisfy too small a group - who cares if it's world heritage.
Governments will listen to any small group that pays well.
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Re:Well... I could. (Score:5, Insightful)
See the milky way or don't live in the dark. I think 99% of the population would choose one over the other.
The whole point of reducing light pollution doesn't mean living in the dark. Lighting manufactures can create good lights that allow the light to shine down and not up into the sky. Its just getting the 99% of the population to choose these instead.
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Oh, the Milky Way (Score:5, Funny)
Vastly over-rated sight.
Better still the suds of morn,
By which unsightly stubble's shorn.
Burma Shave
Re:Oh, the Milky Way (Score:4, Funny)
Is there any other kind of die?
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You don't even know you're missing it. (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in Los Angeles. One day I went up to Yosemite to hike Half-Dome. It's a long hike, so we started at 3 in the morning. When we broke out of the trees, I looked up and shit my pants.
Re:You don't even know you're missing it. (Score:5, Funny)
I looked up and shit my pants.
So you managed to spot Laxitiva Major? I have some great practical joke stories about that star.
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Re:You don't even know you're missing it. (Score:4, Interesting)
What was really amazing was once I went camping with some friends up in the mountains and at the time someone had the right contact and we were able to borrow a piece of Gen 3 night vision. Lying on the ground in the mountains with a high quality image intensifier was pretty crazy. You could see an almost continuous stream of meteors as well as more stars then I ever imagined.
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Re:You don't even know you're missing it. (Score:4, Interesting)
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On a trip to Vegas. (Score:5, Insightful)
I looked up and said to a friend. This town is so corrupt even the stars have left it.
Another interesting stat (Score:5, Funny)
2/5ths of Americans can't see their own toes.
Used be able to see it. (Score:5, Interesting)
I can see about 20 (Score:5, Interesting)
I just recently got a new DSLR camera so now I'm playing around with all it's fancy features. I figured I would see if I could get a picture of the Milky Way from my deck in Cambridge MA. After processing the heck out of it I got about 20-30 stars... it was really kinda sad.
You have to get away ... (Score:4, Interesting)
1. In the middle of the Atlantic on a boat
2. In the desert in Mauritania
Also on your astronomical to do list, head to the southern hemisphere. There's a whole different set of stars there. (Besides Nicole Kidman)
Light pollution or not... (Score:4, Funny)
It's usually right next to the Snickers.
Stars at night (Score:4, Interesting)
No, I won't continue with the Texas theme song.
But I will say that having lived on Nantucket Island, New York City, and now California's Central Valley, I definitely appreciate going back to the sandbar and seeing what a night sky really looks like. I did spend a night in the Badlands of South Dakota -- and I think that is the most stars I've ever seen...it was like the entire sky wasn't black with pinpoints of light, but more of a fuzzy white with brighter spots. Truly amazing until the buffalo attack... (kidding)
Light pollution is fixable (Score:4, Insightful)
If we could start getting in the habit of focusing our lights down through the use of hoods and lamp covers we could probably make fast, cheap improvements on this problem. Light is wasted going up, with the exception of cool satellite shots showing the Earth at night. I for one would love to be able to see more than magnitude 1 and brighter stars from my rooftop in Brooklyn.
Re:Light pollution is fixable (Score:5, Insightful)
They like their lights - it gives a sense of security, although in practice, a well-lit area probably just helps burglars and assorted baddies to see how to break into your house - rather than having to draw attention to themselves by carrying torches, tripping over things they couldn't see - or even being able to tell if there's a large dog waiting for them, in silence.
I don't know if it's due to a generally depressed demeanour, but most people prefer to look down, at their feet, rather than up at the sky. I've even had arguments with people who were so uncaring about their surroundings that they didn't know the moon was visible during the day.
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This is goofy... (Score:5, Insightful)
I take issue with a number of things here...
A) Is this 1/5th immobile? Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something? I'd really like to know. I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.
B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word? Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights? Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot? Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'? Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark? I'd honestly like to know...
C) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage' mean, exactly? Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage'? Because, from where I sit, 'living in a cave, eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick' is also our 'natural heritage'. The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.
It just strikes me as weird, and I'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.
Re:This is goofy... (Score:5, Insightful)
B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word? Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights? Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot? Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'? Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark? I'd honestly like to know...
Well, I'd probably call it "light polution" when it started to have measurable negative impact on the ecosystems that it's being poured into.
For example, do you know about the interactions between exposure to light and melatonin (not melanin) production? And how some animals (arguably including humans) use that to regulate their circadian rhytms? And how other animals use differences in that to measure the change of seasons, and undergo metabolic changes based on that measurement? About how that can impact fertility in some species?
Also, do you know about how light interacts with migration instincts? Do you know why Japanese fishermen light up the sea at night?
The "milky way at night" is an aesthetic thing, and I can see folks using it for PR purposes, and also to make what's going on into something people can directly relate to. But don't conclude from that that it's the only argument available, the only reason to think about "light polution". That might be natural to conclude at first, but it's like concluding that the only problem with littering is that styrofoam containers by the roadside are ugly to the eye, just because that's an argument you hear someone making.
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Re:This is goofy... (Score:4, Insightful)
B) Light pollution is, in my understanding, any photon that goes up rather than down. It's most noticable when the city is overcast and it's bright enough to read by because of all of the light reflected back down by the clouds. Thus, it's both your headlights and Wal-Mart, but I'd argue that you would get better returns for limiting it at the Wal-Mart than your car.
C) The advancement of technology and the departure of us humans from our natural state is not a consistent good. It is often good, yes, but not always. One should always be mindful of what should and should not be left behind. Turning off all the lights is not a good solution to this particular problem, but there are ways to mitigate the side-effects.
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Re:This is goofy... (Score:5, Insightful)
B) Pollution is pollution, regardless of the source. Lower levels are more tolerable than higher levels, but it all detracts from the view of the sky (along with other negative effects). All sources of light pollution should be minimized.
C) Seeing the wonder of the universe is a good thing. Living in a cave is not. Is that distinction so difficult to comprehend? "The rest is technology at work, for better or worse." Oh, so maybe you do grasp the point! Except that we don't have to just accept technology "for better or worse"; we can choose to use technology in ways that makes our lives better and not to use technology in ways that makes it worse.
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Re:This is goofy... (Score:5, Insightful)
I take issue with a number of things here...
A) Is this 1/5th immobile? Can they not hop a commuter train to the suburbs or something?
I'd really like to know.
Ok, first take a look here [blue-marble.de]. Now look carefully on the western edge of Europe, in the country of the Netherlands. See that extremely bright spot stretching along the cost? I live right in the middle of that. Now look around that: everything is equally bright. The nearest darkish spots are to the south, in France, about 350km away.
Let's say I go to France, then. The train to Paris will take me there in about four hours, but I don't want to go to Paris, I want to head out into the dark spots. Have you ever noticed a train stopping in total darkness, in the absolute middle of nowhere-without-a-light? Right, neither have I. They stop in places with high enough population density to make a train stop useful. Those places typically have lots of light as well. So even if I were to make the additional train ride to get to an area that is at least semi-dark, I would still need to get out of the city I'm in and into the countryside to have any benefit.
I hope this explains to you why I have seen the milky way precisely _once_ in my entire life... And it was an unforgettable sight.
I know that when I go out to see Dad in Wyoming the difference is absolutely noticeable, but I've always assumed that the same could be gained by finding some road-side location out in 'the sticks'.
I'll skip the obvious joke about your dad, but for some of us "the sticks" is two countries to the south...
B) When is light 'pollution', and are we okay with (what I assume is) a situational definition of that word? Is light 'pollution' when it comes out of your headlights? Or only when Wal-Mart uses it to light their parking lot? Is there some measurable standard of 'enough' light, and the excess is 'pollution'? Or is it only 'pollution' when you want it to be dark? I'd honestly like to know...
I don't know about the precise word "pollution", but it is certainly undesirable when it deprives us of something of awesome natural beauty - even if it serves some purpose in our industrial society.
C) What does 'the arc of the Milky Way seen from a truly dark location is part of our planet's natural heritage' mean, exactly? Are we really weighing the advantages of light at night against 'natural heritage'? Because, from where I sit, 'living in a cave, eating only what you can kill with a pointy stick' is also our 'natural heritage'. The rest is technology at work, for better or worse.
It just strikes me as weird, and I'd love to hear voices from the other side of it.
What purpose does the grand canyon serve? Why not just make it the largest landfill in the world? What purpose does yellowstone serve? Why not build a city there so people can use the geisers for natural heating? What purpose does the arctic wildlife reserve serve? Why not dig the whole thing up and draw out every last drop of oil?
The sky is no different from that - even if you've never seen it with your own eyes.
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Europe, Britain and the US (Score:5, Funny)
When did Britain get moved to a different continent? Or did we get upgraded?
Re:Europe, Britain and the US (Score:5, Funny)
Evidently the submitter voted UKIP.
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Yeah, but... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm selling my house in Spokane. You can generally see the milky way, and hang out with the deer and elk while you do it.
Nice spot, 10 acres of farmland within viewing distance of a lake (barely), miles of bike trails along the river, ... but I couldn't take the trade-off.
You see, to get all that you have to live in Spokane.
Perspective (Score:4, Interesting)
For me the best thing about being able to see the Milky Way is the sense of perspective you get from the realisation of what it is you're looking it in relation to where you are. Next time you get to see the Milky Way, think about how the galaxy is in a flat-ish plane, and how you and the band you are seeing are both in the same plane. Once you think about it, you mentally orientate yourself in this plane and it starts to mess with your perception of what's "up" and what's "down". The discrepancy between the local "up and down" that you experience on Earth and the bigger "up and down" you see from the Milky Way puts things into perspective in quite a powerful way, in that you stop seeing the sky as a big mass of stars and start to see how you + the Earth fits in to the bigger picture. Of course this may all be obvious to a lot of people here on /. but it isn't to most non-nerds, so if you're on a camping trip and want to impress your mates (or a girl..), try this, it works great ;)
Re:Aren't we in the milkyway? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Aren't we in the milkyway? (Score:4, Informative)
Much like planet is greek for wonderer.
Go on mod me funny and informative.
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Re:Aren't we in the milkyway? (Score:4, Informative)
Note to astronomy guys - some pictures of what the milky way looks like with the naked eye would be very appreciated on that wikipedia page.
The panoramic shots are cool, as are the color-enhanced ones. But for all that people talk about the milky way so often, and the fact that I have seen it several times (if faintly) in person, I've always been very vague on whether I was actually seeing it because so few of the common pictures show what it'll actually look like :)
If you look at the section labelled "Age" on the wiki page, you will see a good picture of what the Milky Way looks like to most people not living in a light polluted city.
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Re:Milky Way, hell... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Milky Way, hell... (Score:5, Funny)
You're lucky! There were a hundred and twenty six of us living in a cardboard box in the middle of the road...
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Re:Milky Way, hell... (Score:5, Informative)
Real New Yorker's never look up. That's just for tourists.
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Re:Milky Way, hell... (Score:5, Funny)
Living in Tucson, where the International Dark-Sky Association ("The Light Pollution Authority") is (was?) based, I'm lucky if I can see cyclists and pedestrians after sunset.
Yes I can see the bloody Milky Way, but the Milky Way isn't likely to cross an unlit street in front of you, is it?
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Re:Milky Way, hell... (Score:5, Funny)
Pro-tip: turn on your headlights.
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Re:Milky Way, hell... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Aaah... the lucky, lucky, people... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah well, I live on a mountain, can see the Milky Way most nights, get daily mail & UPS & FedEx service, have my choice of 2 decent broadband services, can get over-the-air DTV, and am only about 1/2 mile from a paved (but mostly unlighted thank goodness) road. Granted, shopping is not so close, 15 minute drive to a quick-mart, 30 minutes to anything substantial--such as Costco, Safeway, Home Depot, major mall, excellent restaurants, the state university, or several medical centers. Oh woe is me, deprived of freedom and comfort ;-)
Of course brutal high winter winds, deep snow, and spending lots of quality time with a chainsaw are not for everyone. But I love it!
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