Chimpanzees Exchange Meat For Sex 313
the_therapist writes "A team from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany, studied chimps in the Tai Forest reserve in Ivory Coast and discovered that chimpanzees enter into 'deals' whereby they exchange meat for sex. Among the findings are that 'male chimps that are willing to share the proceeds of their hunting expeditions mate twice as often as their more selfish counterparts.' They also found this to be 'a long-term exchange, so males continue to share their catch with females when they are not fertile, copulating with them when they are.'"
Bonobos (Score:5, Interesting)
I can believe this is a new discovery for the Common Chimpanzee. But for their close relatives the Bonobos, I saw documentaries decades ago showing not just the long term pair-bonding/mating-behavior related food-giving described in TFA, but outright prostitution. As in a male chimp comes up to a female with a banana in his hand, kinda tugs on her, she reacts neutrally, he hands her the banana and tugs again, they go off and have sex. And lest you hold on to the notion that this was still mating-related behavior, the sex in question was oral.
Ah, Bonobos [wikipedia.org]. Gotta love those crazy nympho primates. I could be wrong but I think the Common Chimp is closer to us genetically, but I think the Bonobo is closer to us psychologically. I was going to say socially, but I don't know many human societies where genital rubbing is used as a greeting or where orgies break out whenever they acquire food.
Re:NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:3, Interesting)
This behavior has been quite well documented in bonobos, which until recently were considered chimps or dwarf chimps. I'm not sure what makes this article newsworthy, except that we all like to read about meat and sex...
What makes it newsworthy is that despite what they used to be called, a Bonobo or Pigmy Chimpanzee is not a Common Chimpanzee. The article only says "chimpanzee" but quotes from scientists using the same term makes it obvious they're using the common name for common chimpanzee otherwise they'd specify.
The part where the male gives the female meat but doesn't have sex until later (yet still averages twice as much sex as selfish males) sounds interesting, and maybe is news for a zoologist too, but I don't know.
Plank institute? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I've read, I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
If they're using meat as a currency for reproduction, then it becomes a very valuable part of the diet. And supplying meat sounds just like the typical display of fitness ritual common to many animals' reproductive behavior.
Re:Bonobos (Score:3, Interesting)
I doubt this is new at all. Maybe a new discovery.
Um well yeah, obviously it's news in the sense of us discovering it, not that chimps suddenly started doing it.
Isn't this what evolution is based upon? The strong get laid, procreate and the weak don't get laid and don't procreate?
Sure, but not every animal or mammal for that matter used food gifts to express that strength to a mate, and we didn't know chimpanzees did, as tfa says. And it isn't necessarily the case that the ones that share are getting more meat, they might just be more generous. Not necessarily a bad trait for females to select for! Though sexual selection throws a weird kink (giggity) in the basic "survival of the fittest"... Sometimes it seems more like a female thinks "gee if you can survive like that, you must be healthy!" like in for example peacocks. :P
Not new (Score:5, Interesting)
There was an article some years ago about monkeys (not sure if chimpanzees or not) being trained to use money.
Researchers taught them that discs of metal could be exchanged for food and such things. They got all sorts of interesting behaviors out of it, including the monkeys attempting to fake the money.
One uncomfortable discovery was discovering that some of them were actually using that money to pay for sex.
This seems even better than this one. Food for sex is a straightforward exchange. Tokens that can be used to obtain food for sex is more complicated, and shows a deeper understanding.
I always laugh.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Bonobos (Score:5, Interesting)
Part of what's new about this finding is that the chimpanzees are engaging in a long-term exchange, not just an instantaneous trade like in your bonobo example. The male chimp gives the female some meat now, and at some point later in time she mates with him.
This is interesting because the ability to engage in long-term exchanges requires some pretty sophisticated cognitive machinery that isn't necessary for an instantaneous trade. You have to keep track of who you have active deals with and what the running balance is, and you have to be sensitive to cheaters (and have an effective response, like ostracizing them) lest you get exploited. Evolutionary psychologists think that humans have special cognitive adaptations [ucsb.edu] to help us manage long-term exchanges. This study appears to present evidence of similar abilities in other primates.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Interesting)
Though as you mentioned, could also be that rulers insisted on monogamy from their mates to ensure that any offspring came from the right father. Always hard to confirm parentage if you don't have access to at least a basic lab.
Maybe it's not an EXCHANGE (Score:5, Interesting)
Humans look at the male chimp's giving the female chimp meat as "trading" meat for sex, but there are a lot of other constructions that could be put on that behavior. He could just as easily be trying to assure that his offspring will be healthy. Or trying to assure the health and well-being of a female that he's come to care about.
The original article says that people had tried to find meat-for-sex exchanges in chimps before and failed, because they didn't give the animals enough credit for long-term planning. They looked to see if Chimp A gave meat to Chimp B, then had sex with her two minutes later, and they didn't find that. The current researchers succeeded because they took a longer-term view and counted meat-giving and sexual activity over time. But it's possible that they're still not giving the animals enough credit -- what if the meat-giving isn't trading meat for sex but is something else entirely?
Observations of primate behavior will never tell us anything until we learn to just report what we see the animals doing, then think of every plausible reason why they might be doing that, rather than assuming that the animals aren't capable of doing what we do.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:5, Interesting)
Small tribes and isolation prevented any bad repercussions for free sex.
In my 50 years of experience there are three types of women
* Those who hate sex (common and really sad- seems to last decades)
* Those who are extremely promiscuous (uncommon but more common than you think)
* Those who enjoy sex and are reasonably or totally monogamous (uncommonly for a decade, rare for a lifetime)
Based on actual experience, if you are not afraid of loss, the best partner is a couple days a week and then the rest of the time you do guy stuff. A full time wife/girlfriend can be stifling unless you make them your life. I've done it both ways multiple times. I prefer the fwb and free time. Since I have extra meat to share, it works. I've been in three ~decade long relationships and ended up gutted emotionally every time. After I quit that, I was much happier. But I do envy friends who made it work. Having a girlfriend, then wife from 16 to 26 was probably awesome and changed me since I never did the club hunting thing. But it was stupid to marry before I was on good financial footing. And once you marry/get a girlfriend, you can't do what you have to do to get set financially.
If I was religious, it would have been a lot easier. Religious girls *will* drop you after you and they are in in love-- because a) god comes first and b) "they are going to be in heaven alone for eternity while you are in hell and it makes them sad."
Worldwide (citation needed but exists), women leave men at a higher rate when the last born child reaches 5 years old. Regardless of culture, religion, or other factors. The theory was that genetically that is when the child can gather it's own food and walk around and there is something genetic about it. And that it is better to have children by multiple mates in order to maximize the odds your genes survive (for both sexes- but they use different strategies to achieve the goal-- I've read up to 10% of children's dna do not match their fathers in many areas, so that's another strategy- happened to at least one friend of mine).
The only problem is the damn legal system currently punishes men way out of proportion. I've even heard of men required to pay child support for children that were not theirs (they'd paid for a couple years and THEN found out the ex had been lying-- so do a quick paternity test when your wife asks for a divorce and save yourself some grief).
We all want to love and be loved in return-- and really, almost completely separate from that we want red hot noogie. In fact, the argument over who should take out the garbage gets in the way which is why some of the most incredible sex is with people you only see to get it on with. But (in my experience), you still have to know them well- the anonymous stuff never worked for me. Too cold.
Re:I always laugh.... (Score:5, Interesting)
A woman whose body works well (no endometriosis, abuse issues, etc.) can climax every 2 to 3 minutes for an indefinite period.
The best a man can do is either edge forever, or train themselves to climax without ejaculation (came close but never succeeded myself but some do).
One huge piece of advice... get a massage table ($300). So much better than a bed. Soooooo much better than a bed.
You can adjust the height by inches (so you hit the right spots inside her) and instead of doing push-ups (every frikkin muscle in the body except the inner ear) for an hour, you are only screwing (so mainly abs, gluts and triceps). It is marvelous for all parties concerned.
Because of our weak egos, ladies do well who push those buttons. I can see when they are pushing my buttons and it still feels good.
Ladies in their 40's who didn't have something go wrong, like sex as much or more than younger women. I was married and monogamous most of my 20's so I don't have a lot of comparison in that age. In my 30's they wanted sex but a lot seemed to be screwed up by their previous relationships. In their 40's they knew what they wanted and went for it. I wonder what the 50's and 60's will be like.
Re:For human males, the key is to avoid Marriage t (Score:3, Interesting)
Having a good marriage is probably 25% likely.
But here's the problem....
Hubby or Wife asks spouse for sex and is rejected. Ego hit. And unavoidable.
Enough ego hits, and you just don't WANT to risk another rejection. Deadly Embrace condition.
Meanwhile, the guy or lady you see on the sly only at lunchtime on thursdays is there for *one* thing. If you are not feeling well, you cancel it in advance and no rejection. That sex is *incredible* over a long enough period. No rejections, no ego damage to your sex drive. And then the idiots split up with their spouse and go into a "real" relationship with their sex partner and over 75% are split up within 12 months.
Sometimes I think we should marry our spouse and then we and our spouse find other sex partners. Maybe not the first child bearing marriage but any second or third marriages.
Women and men lose their sex drives for a particular person (re: Calvin Coolidge's famous rooster discussion with his wife).
However- if you are a man and lost your sex drive big time- GET YOUR HORMONES checked. A lot of men find they are down in the 200's to 300's and should be in the 500's . As a testicular cancer survivor (16 years! Woo woo! would have been dead 2 years earlier because no cure), this hit me when I was 43. I got treated and turned back the clock to like I was a mid 30 year old again.
Re:Not new - Article link (Score:0, Interesting)
Here's said article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/magazine/05FREAK.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2 [nytimes.com]
Re:Oldest profession? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:3, Interesting)
From what I've read, I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
What about the protein gain for the female, exclusive of the male's effort? A higher protein diet would be a big survival advantage for pregnant/nursing females, as well as for developing offspring.
So the balance may be against the hunter (he has to not only hunt the meat, but also gather other food to offset the net energy loss from the hunting), but may improve the survival probabilities of the female/offspring, which would in turn improve the chances of the male's DNA surviving.
Re:NOT News . . . seen Bonobos (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd also disagree with the article that meat is so valuable to their diet. They LOVE meat, but other research suggests that the amount of energy expended on hunting compared to what they gain in protein/food is a net negative. Hunting is also high risk and includes getting injured in the process.
They might need meat for the same reason we do: essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals and fat that their fruit/plant diet either lacks or is deficient in.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe I spent too much time at college, but I'd change your list quite a bit:
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:4, Interesting)
Quite often I've taken dates out to a nice steak dinner....and there is really only one reason to take a girl out on a date....
As for marriage...dude, you never marry them, it cost you half your shit when you want to upgrade to a newer model."
Wow...modded to hell.
Hehehehe...I guess there are many more women lurking around slashdot than we originally thought.
Re:Same behavior in humans too (Score:3, Interesting)
Ah, but that's when you simply go for the "best of both worlds" and have an open relationship. I'm currently single, but when I had a girlfriend, I'd have sex with her, and also my close female friends. She had sex with me and her close friends (both genders). Now that I'm single, I still have sex with my close female friends, but it's a different sort of situation to actually having a girlfriend.
(for reference, we didn't break up because of anything sex related - that side of our relationship was very healthy; we broke up because we had very different views on children (I want them, she didn't))
Re:I always laugh.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Very interesting about the endometriosis and female plumbing in general contributing to the overall ability to satisfy a woman sexually. I can probably say the most if not nearly all men and women alike fail to consider that the reasons that we have cliche diagnosis of PMS are directly related to satisfaction in bed.
It's almost akin to suggesting that we shouldn't even bother to attempt to bed a gal (with the intent of a long term relationship) until such time as we've made an attempt to determine if she has any female plumbing issues.
Now this is an overt generalization of what you had posted but it does make some sense. All you hear these days is ads targeted at males looking for a bigger meat. But not the other way around. Very seldom do we hear ads that target women to suggest to get endometriosis, cysts, and other down under issues delt with in the pursuit of a good climax.
My wife for example was recently diagnosed with a cyst and mild endometriosis. The cyst was removed and BANG. Not only better joy but also a bun in the oven. We had been trying for a while to have kids.
It's almost a selfish act to consider that we don't look to female plumbing as part of the overall issue UNTIL we attempt to procreate for reasons other then recreation.
The correlation may be weak and unscientific here. But, never the less compelling...
Re:Oldest profession? (Score:2, Interesting)
actually there was an article last year about some researchers who taught chimps to use money (plastic "task reward" tokens exchangeable for food). they promptly invented prostitution.
I looked for some reference for this... here it is [nytimes.com], on page #2 [nytimes.com].