Indian Moon Mission Launched 305
hackerdownunder writes "India's maiden lunar mission (Chandrayaan-1) got off to a flying start today. Describing the launch as 'perfect and precise,' the chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO), G Madhavan Nair, said that it would be 14 days before the satellite would enter into lunar orbit.
Chandrayaan carries eleven payloads: five designed and developed in India, three from the European Space Agency, one from Bulgaria and two from NASA."
How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Third World is exploring space, developing scientists and engineers, and developing their economies.
Here in the US, we're developing our military, discouraging the study of science and engineering, discouraging all rational thought (God did it!), spending resources on some nebulous terrorist threat the will come some day (or so we're told), and developing industries based on chance and moving money around.
I wonder which society has better long term prospects for its people, economy, and Government?
Only $ 80 Mn (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:4, Insightful)
My parents spent a month there visiting friends and despite how quickly they're building up there are still many problems that need resolving. Maybe the moon mission is a good idea in some eyes, just as we are spending money on building weapons both of us should be putting it towards building schools, hospitals, and getting average Joe six pack health insurance so he can take care of that knee that has been bothering him.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that India should focus on poverty first and eschew other areas has shackled the country for many decades. Nehru and his daughter followed that philosophy. Grandson Rajiv broke out in 1984 but was very naive and reversed himself by 1988. It took Narasimha Rao and his finance minister Manmohan Singh to really put India on the right path. BJP govt instilled the country with some pride. India has to become the world leader in a few areas and then use the wealth it generates to alleviate the poverty.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone might even go as far as to say that investing in high tech will create jobs that will pay (through taxes) for all the feel good social services.
You know. Give a man unemployment pay and you feed him for a month. Teach a man to design radiation hardened telecom transceivers and you feed him (and 100 others) for life.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:PROGRESS!!!.... maybe. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:3, Insightful)
Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reaching the Moon while milllions go Hungry (Score:5, Insightful)
How about actually setting up a sensible education system, then a sensible industrial sector, and then a sensible R&D sector for future industries; so that people can be productive and build wealth for your country?
Doesn't that sound a lot like what India is trying to do?
Re:Outsourcing. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why moon? (Score:3, Insightful)
It is much more sensible to go in small steps first, so that any problems will be solved before the big project.
Re:Outsourcing. (Score:1, Insightful)
I realize they have an amazing (and selective) university system that makes many of ours silly by comparison,
WTF No!!!!! The Engineering programs in most universities outside of select good ones like BITS, NITs and IITs is deplorable at best. The undergrad programmes just get the bare minimum done in terms of imparting wisdom and a hands-on approach to the students.
Why do you think the guys here in US are constantly moaning about the lack of quality in the work that had been outsourced to India? Doesn't that speak volumes about the kind of skillset, workers that are being employed by those firms possess?
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Reaching the Moon while milllions go Hungry (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
Poverty itself isn't the problem, it's inherited poverty that's the problem.
"Fair" doesn't mean "everyone succeeds"
"Fair" means everyone gets a decent chance to succeed and those who get things right do succeed more.
You can still get unlucky on a fair dice role and be screwed.
"Unfair" only kicks in when you go for multiple generations and players start with less chips and the game loaded against them.
Problem is that almost no societies are fair, they either remove the ability of those capable of doing well from benefiting from it for the sake of the losers or alternatively screw the kids of people who've done badly for the benefit of the winners of the last round and their kids.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're being a little "black and white" on this topic.
Science and god aren't opposites. It's not either science or god. Science and god speak to completely different endeavors and areas of human interest. Science attempts to explain the physical phenomenon around us. Religion contemplates mans place in the universe, his role in it, and the "meaning" of our actions and lives.
Science tells us the big bang happened. If you don't believe in the big bang, that's your problem. However, there's nothing that stops you from believing in the big bang, and the notion that god was the prime force behind it -- essentially, creationism but on a much huger scale than typically explained by religions.
There are many educated, intelligent people, who are completely capable of believing that god exists and not have to worry about any incompatibility in these two beliefs. It's the belief that either science or religion are true and there's no room for them to coexist which is the problem.
At present, science can't disprove the notion of god. In fact, god and all that implies takes over where science ends. Believing that some divine power caused the big bang isn't irrational, it just requires a leap of faith. That leap of faith, however, doesn't need to be at odds with science. I know astrophysicists who accept all of the physics on face value and still believe that, ultimately, god is out there. Their belief doesn't in any way affect their objectivity behind what the science tells us -- their religion supports their spirituality and morality, and their science allows them to investigate physical reality.
And, before anyone accuses me of defending the concept of religion from the perspective of a religious person -- I was raised protestant, spent about 20 years being an atheist, and now buddhism informs my morality and world view, but I don't actually believe in a god per se. But, I don't believe that all people who do believe are a bunch of crazy wing nuts who are gullible idiots.
Cheers
Braindrain? (Score:1, Insightful)
awesome (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:2, Insightful)
"India's economy has turned around due to technology outsourcing to India by the rest of the world. This outsourcing started happening when Indians began showing the outside world that Indians aren't just the hungry clamouring mobs always shown on TV. As the world realized this, they began to see value in sending work to India."
Nope. We began outsourcing to India because labor rates there are so much lower than in the U.S., not because of some perceived technological advantage. Pure economics. Very shorted sighted--a practice that will come back to bite the U.S. in the ass big time in the future.
As the Indian standard of living increases and salaries go up, then we'll just find another country with cheaper labor and move our outsourcing there instead.
As for the Indian moon mission: yawn... Ho hum... Been there, done that. Forty years ago.
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:1, Insightful)
Some Indians commenting here are unfortunately the backward navel-gazing types, who will never understand the basis for economic growth and alleviation of poverty. They still think in the most primitive backward terms about how to bring development, prosperity and relief to the masses. The lost opportunities and economic stagnation of the past 50 years under the social welfare state show how such narrow mindsets can wreak havoc on a country. The answer lies in Indians showing each other and the world how to be achievers, instead of just beggars forever clamouring with their palms outstretched.
Ha! the wonderful belief that free market capitalism will solve all the worlds problems and mitigate poverty!
Do you really think that private corporations with no compulsions other than "shareholder value" will consider the good of the poor?
Just take a deep breath and look around you. Free market capitalism has failed spectacularly and the market is gone crying back to the governments to bail them out.
In the last couple of weeks, the US government and the Fed has purchased stake in pretty much all the major banks. The EU is doing the same for the European banks. The Indian government is brazing itself to save the "Public Sector" banks.
GM and other auto majors have already asked for their bailout. The telecom companies will follow suit.
What do you term this other than socialism? where do you think the money is going when people withdraw funds from the private banks? All the money is headed in the direction of government bonds or are being placed in accounts with nationalised banks.
Let me know if there is something that I missed in all this then perhaps I will drink that old "free market" capitalism koolaid again.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:5, Insightful)
Ha! the wonderful belief that free market capitalism will solve all the worlds problems and mitigate poverty!
Do you really think that private corporations with no compulsions other than "shareholder value" will consider the good of the poor?
The private corporations don't have to care. That's the point of capitalism. The whole thing is based on the idea that if you have something I want and I have something you want, we negotiate until we find some mutually beneficial exchange which leaves us both better off. The crucial point is that I am only worried about my own well-being.
Do you really think that you and I would be better off if we sent our two things in to some central government committee, which would evaluate how much they were worth, how much we needed them, and how much we deserved, then take a cut to fund the system before handing us our Fair Share? I would much rather deal directly, TYVM.
That many large corporations (such as my employer) make correspondingly large donations to charity is also something to bear in mind, but the point is that it's not required, and the system ensures that there are advantages anyway.
The problems that we are seeing now are due to some misguided attempts to mess with the workings of the system. It's complex, with all sorts of feedback, and most of its failure modes are quite spectacularly nasty for those affected. I just hope They can reboot it in time: http://newsbiscuit.com/article/world-leader-agree-rescue-plan-turn-all-the-computers-off-and-then-turn-them-back-on-again-382 [newsbiscuit.com]
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:1, Insightful)
Jesus fucking Christ, you couldn't be more wrong. This opposed to the Congress and other regional parties who shamelessly exploit the caste and religion divides? India has a majority of Hindus, and face it or not, it's because of that majority that we have a secular country. Try doing that with a Muslim majority.
It's bloody time that one stopped this religious conversion and my Dog over your Dog bullshit and concentrated on what's needed to improve the lot of the country.
The only good administration that the country had was the Narasimha Rao administration. The rest is just fluff.
Nehru fucking blew India's seat in the UNSC. Imagine the perks we'd have had with it.
Perks of space exploration: remote sensing, agriculture development, mining and resource utilization optimization, satcom, spying, national security. Get a sense in before you post.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:1, Insightful)
Bullshit.
The BJP is not a "fascist" party. It is definitely a right-wing party but by no means "fascist". And I'm not even sure what you mean by "unleashed atrocities against minorities". Do you have anything to back that up?
Don't forget that ALL parties in India play the caste and religion card. All the Congress does is pander to minority groups during election time and go back on their promises.
Re:How things are turning out. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, that said, it doesn't mean that the Indian program will be nearly as successful. But it does point out that these benefits are real and have been documented. Since some of the benefits are jobs creation, this can go towards benefiting people other than the upper class.
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:2, Insightful)
Crude oil? From which fossils?
Another outsourcing industry started (Score:2, Insightful)
India showcased its low-cost space technology. Project cost only $79 million, considerably less than the Chinese and Japanese probes. Now world can outsource space projects to India. Another outsourcing industry started :)
This project also shows India's partnership with 14 other countries and sharing data and technology together.
Re:Why moon? (Score:1, Insightful)
Have you any idea at all how much more complicated and expensive it is to go to Mars rather than the moon?
I'd like to see you when you get kids:
"Yeah, Jimmy learnt to walk two months ago, but then again, Billy next door has been walking for a year already, so that's old hat. I was really hoping Jimmy would start with pole-vaulting or something."
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:5, Insightful)
The private corporations don't have to care. That's the point of capitalism. The whole thing is based on the idea that if you have something I want and I have something you want, we negotiate until we find some mutually beneficial exchange which leaves us both better off. The crucial point is that I am only worried about my own well-being.
What about the young, the old, the poor, the sick and the crippled who have nothing you want (goods, services, money) but need food, shelter and medicine?
Should your precious Free Market remove them from the face of the earth?
When you grow old and/or sick, and your savings are rendered worthless when the great Free Market has one of its funny turns, should you remove yourself from the face of the earth, or should the Free Market do it as you lie down and starve to death?
Re:wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
The collapse was caused by the creation of GSEs, and the subsequent congressional pressure on those GSEs to ensure loans could be make to poor people that couldn't afford to pay them back. Essentially Fannie and Freddy said, make a bad loan, and we'll buy it from you, because we think those people deserve loans. Without government regulation, the loans would have never been issued in the first place. Your pontificating about socialist wet dreams and rogue megacorporations is unwarranted.
Only an idiot incapable of taking care of themselves would want to live in a social welfare state.
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Old-Fashioned Navel-Gazing (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, but they do have something I want, and that you want, too: Human dignity worth preserving.
Which brings us right back to the original question: What's a better way of getting what you want? Finding someone who needs your help, and helping them? Or referring them to a government bureaucracy that decides who needs help and how much, and takes your money for that purpose? Are you really convinced that the government does a better job of spending your charity dollars than you would?
NO. and please dont comment without researching (Score:5, Insightful)
1.000.000 people unable to pay for their mortgages nets to a loss around $300 bn, if the houses were bought from $600 k by the bank and their values now $300 k.
thats only 1/3 of the cash us had prepared for its banks, its also around 1/10 of the cash that europe has provided.
you see, the funds provided had already covered approx 20 times that loss, if you count in what japan, korea and other nations have readied.
you should have understood by now that this is nothing related to unpaid mortgages or poor people, or fannie mae freddie mac. this is the bullshit that republican bastards are feeding you to get off the hook.
the real problem is this :
banks are allowed to lend approx 10 times the total assets they have. because its logical - money turns slow, so it doesnt create a problem. its all valid liquidity wise. this ratio is a healthy ratio and its checked by government regulation.
but, due to the lawless environment republicans and holistic economists have created by yelping 'hands off business' 'government out' 'government bad for economy, youll cost jobs to people', government regulation was totally hampered in that sector since reagan era.
then what happened ? in this unregulated environment, some bastards realized this ; if they show those mortgages as assets, and then create DERIVATIVE assets over them (called hedge funds in general because they accept all kinds of 'assets'), they can sell/trade those assets !!!
and they proceeded to do that. they created assets linked to those mortgage assets, then started trading them. attracted investors. those funds have inflated in value, disproportionately. imagine the funds value becoming $ 20 trillion instead of the mortgage value of $ 200 bn. this is round one.
in round two, they went further. they showed those DERIVATIVES as assets. meaning, despite they had $200 bn worth of mortgage assets, they now had $20 trillion worth of hedge funds/investments tied to those mortgages !! and they started lending by showing their total assets as $20 trillion plus $200 bn !!! see the point ? they started lending money THEY DONT HAVE !
see the issue now ?!
someone should have stepped in, checked their books and said 'hey, you dont have that much assets. what you are showing me as assets are actually derivative papers tied to OTHER assets. these are NOT real, and they are OVERvalued !!' and stopped them in their tracks.
but noone did. because a lot of poodles were yelping 'hands off economy !!'. so it went like this, those banks lent to countries, governments, megacorporations, traded those investment funds SO widely around the world that every bank in the world got infested by those funds.
then it was discovered. and today we are here.