First Oort Cloud Object May Have Been Discovered 110
SpuriousLogic alerts us to the discovery of what may be the first object ever discovered from the inner edge of the Oort cloud. 2006 SQ372 was found on images from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey. Its discoverers theorize that this comet-like object and the planetoid Sedna, first spotted in 2003, might be Oort denizens. Sedna is in a stable orbit but 2006 SQ372 has been perturbed by the gravity of Uranus and/or Neptune, simulations suggest, so its orbital history is unknowable. 2006 SQ372 will travel out to 1,600 AU on this orbit, making it the most distant solar-system object yet found. The Oort cloud is believed to extend ten times that far, or about a quarter of a light-year. "Theoretical models of the formation of the Oort Cloud predict that it should also host a massive inner part, but comets from this region never make it near Earth. To see the long-period comets from the inner region of the Oort Cloud requires observing comets whose orbits always stay well outside Saturn's orbit — like 2006 SQ372."
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And I just made this site too (well, remade). Majority of the code and html was written yesterday. Small universe I guess.
Planetoid? (Score:5, Insightful)
the planetoid Sedna
Wouldn't that be a plutoid?
Re:Planetoid? (Score:4, Funny)
Wouldn't that be a plutoid?
so he goofed a mickey mouse factoid?
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Take a bow....
ROFL!
Re:Planetoid? (Score:5, Informative)
A dwarf planet and a plutoid are not mutually exclusive. A plutoid is a subset of dwarf planets that are further from the Sun than Neptune. Sedna has not yet been designated a dwarf planet or a plutoid because there is currently a debate in the IAU about the characteristics of a body for its self gravity to round it. Sedna is currently classified as a planetoid (or minor planet). However, Sedna is considered a strong candidate to become both a dwarf planet and a plutoid since a) its estimated diameter of ~1500 km is larger than the 800 km that is expected to round a rocky dwarf planet, and b) it is likely made of a significant fraction of ice which would significantly lower the diameter needed to round it. I don't expect the debate in the IAU to be resolved anytime soon, but I think Sedna will be reclassified because its characteristics overwhelmingly support the likelihood that it has enough gravity to round itself.
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No, it's the Oort cloud. It'd be an Oort.
Everything in an Oort cloud is an Oort.
Personally, I think they should have called it the "Rocks 'N Stuff Cloud."
Re:Planetoid? No Disneytoids? (Score:1)
From what I can read here, I am surrounded by a bucha Gooftoids.
.
Oort Cloud (Score:5, Informative)
Something tells me that a lot of people are going to be looking up Oort Cloud on Wikipedia in the next few minutes... the article summary is nice and scientificky but it hardly explains what's going on in simple terms - the article is actually more summarised than the summary!
For reference, see the article itself or:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oort_cloud [wikipedia.org]
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I know I just did :)
I was listening to a radio show last week where listeners phone in with science question and the Oort Cloud was described as a cloud of matter outside the galaxy, which isn't what I thought it was so I meant to look it up a week ago. I missed the question though, so maybe it was about this object.
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Something tells me that a lot of people are going to be looking up Oort Cloud on Wikipedia in the next few minutes...
Not me, since I was a victim of the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon. But something tells me that people who read this message are going to be looking Wikipedia for something else...
For reference, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baader-Meinhof_Phenomenon [wikipedia.org]
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As a personal example I remeber that Dorthoy's red slippers from the wizard of Oz were stolen a couple of years ago. The reason it sticks in my head is because I was driving along with the wife when I saw a young woman wearing red sparkly shoes. I pointed and said "I thought Dorothy went back to Kansas?" (I live in Australia, often refered to as Oz). As soon as the words left my mouth the story about the shoe theft came on the radio. It was so close the wife was unsure wet
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This is the first time I've realized that the Oort cloud is only theoretical. I didn't realize we haven't really properly observed it. That kind of freaks me out... how can we NOT know whether or not we are completely surrounded by billions and billions of comets?
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Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is.
-HHGTTG
Oops, Oort. (Score:3, Interesting)
Offsite backups seem like a good idea to me. How about you?
Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:4, Interesting)
Anybody know if this a theory, or I'm I just ready for bed? I can't seem to find any info on it. Maybe I heard it on Art Bell years ago, in which case I AM ready for bed...
Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, this is the "Nemesis" theory, which was popular in the '70s and '80s for explaining "regular" extinction events. However, the events are less "regular" than suggested by proponents of the theory, and if such a star really existed, Infrared All Sky Surveys would have detected it by now. They haven't, so it doesn't exist.
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I thought the latest theory was that Oort cloud disruption occurred as our sun fluctuated up and down through our arm of the galaxy, as we circle around the core?
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Tricksy V'Ger, we hates you!
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Indeed, it is still Popular, but not among serious scientists.
Until about a decade ago, we could say "we don't know", with the IR surveys made since IRAS, we can actually put upper limits on objects out there which are below the threshold where such an object could have a "Nemesis" like effect.
Also, our knowledge of the fossil record and extinction events has advanced significantly since the theory was first posited, and the supposed "regularity" of the Extinctions has vanished, knocking out the main other
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You could be perfectly correct, but "we haven't discovered it so it doesn't exist" sound like famous last words. Kind of like "640K ought to be enough for everybody".
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Uhm, no...
It's a bit like we can be pretty much 100% certain that there are no 1000km sized asteroids waiting to be discovered in the Asteroid belt between Mars & Jupiter. If such an object did exist, we would have seen it by now because we've checked the sky with sufficient detail that any object that size would already have been discovered.
It is true that theoretically a huge, massive, Nemesis-like object could exist and be undetected, but that object would then not be a red or brown dwarf, or even a
Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, there was a serious theory for a while that a small dim star called "Nemesis" orbits the Sun and would disrupt the Oort could every 40 million years or so sending a hail of comets into the inner solar system which is responsible for mass extinctions on Earth. It never really had many supporters.
I addition to Nemesis, which at least was a theory espoused by legitimate astronomers, many kooks are convinced that there is a weird giant planet out in that same area which swings by Earth every few thousand years and is supposedly the home to a race of lizard people who communicated with the Sumerians. Now go to bed or the lizard people will get you.
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i'm not sure if you're joking or not but I was wanting to read more about the crackpot lizard planet. Do you have a link?
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Googling "Marduk", "Nibiru", and "Anunnaki" is a good place to start. I can't remember if the Anunnaki are supposed to be lizards or if that's another race - after awhile it all gets muddled together.
The best track ("Pleiadian Agenda") on Hanzel und Gretyl's first album makes reference to it as well.
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Yeah, you weren't kidding at all...
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Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:5, Informative)
From the Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]:
The outer Oort cloud [...]. Its total mass is not known with certainty, but, assuming that Halley's comet is a suitable prototype for all comets within the outer Oort cloud, the estimated combined mass is 3x10^28 grams, or roughly five times the mass of the Earth. Earlier it was thought to be more massive (up to 380 Earth masses), but improved knowledge of the size distribution of long-period comets has led to much lower estimates. The mass of the inner Oort cloud is not currently known.
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The outer Oort cloud [...]. Its total mass is not known with certainty, but, assuming that Halley's comet is a suitable prototype for all comets within the outer Oort cloud, the estimated combined mass is 3x10^28 grams, or roughly five times the mass of the Earth. Earlier it was thought to be more massive (up to 380 Earth masses), but improved knowledge of the size distribution of long-period comets has led to much lower estimates. The mass of the inner Oort cloud is not currently known.
Wait, Halley's Comet? Doesn't that one have a period of 70 years or thereabouts? That's way too short for an Oort Cloud comet.
Now I'm not an astronomer, so I don't really feel qualified to fix this, but to my layman's ears it sounds like Wikipedia is misleading here.
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You missed this in the Wikipedia article:
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Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:5, Informative)
Incorrect, the sum of the mass of the Oort cloud objects *might* be larger than the Earth's mass, maybe even a few Earth masses, but it is certainly not "far more than the mass of the sun and all the planets".
While an Earth sized planet might exist in the Oort cloud and not be detected, it is essentially impossible for anything Jupiter-sized to exist there, for two reasons: (a) Infrared all-sky surveys would have detected it by now and (b) a massive object like that would cause a significant detectable influx of smaller objects (comets) from the region where it exists. No such "preferred" direction is detected in long-period comets, and the number of long-period comets we find is at least an order of magnitude lower than we would see if there really was such a massive object out there.
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The total mass is probably much larger than the mass of its larger objects. Remember the Oort cloud is supposed to be very large and, thus, very sparse. You can have a couple solar systems worth of mass out there and it would still look like a pretty good vacuum. There would be no distant Jupiter (not a hot one, at least) and no dark star, but that would not preclude the total mass of the cloud from exceeding the mass of the rest of the solar system.
To put it simply, nobody knows its mass and all estimates
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Actually, the total mass is not "probably much larger than the mass of its larger objects".
A few comparable examples:
50% of the total mass of the asteroid belt resides in the 4 largest asteroids.
70% of the total mass of the known solar system outside the sun resides in one object, Jupiter.
And the original author claimed that the Oort cloud is more massive than the sun and all the planets. I could probably acknowledge that, in theory, the mass of the Oort cloud could be on the same scale as the mass of all t
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Small addition: Wikipedia has a good overview (with scientific references) of the Oort Cloud mass (look at "Structure and Composition") [wikipedia.org]
Basically, estimates of the Oort Cloud mass can be made based on the size & distribution of long-period and non-periodic comets. These estimates have actually decreased in recent years, and range from a total mass of 380x Earth to (more recently) no more than 5x Earh.
You could call that an "educated guess" if you want, but it's one based on more science than your Solar M
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Like I said, we will know in a couple decades.
And any estimate that can range between 380 and 5 is not an estimate. It more closely resembles a wild guess than an educated one.
If it stays around 5 Earth masses for a couple decades, I may start to respect it.
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Like I said, we will know in a couple decades.
And any estimate that can range between 380 and 5 is not an estimate. It more closely resembles a wild guess than an educated one.
If it stays around 5 Earth masses for a couple decades, I may start to respect it.
Actually, the estimate doesn't range between 380 and 5, 380 earth masses was an early estimate of the upper limit, more recent study points to 5 earth masses as being the likely upper limit. At any rate, since a solar mass is about 334000 earth masses, the range from 380-->5 isn't quite so huge as to include another thousandfold increase as a likely possibility. And like I said, the trend has been down, not up... Oh, and I'm sure the scientific community cares a whole lot about your "respect"...
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Every bit as much as I care about the mass of the Oort cloud.
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Incorrect. He did not say there were "Jupiter-sized" or even "Earth-sized" objects.
He Said: "... SUM of the mass of oort cloud objects is far more than the mass of the sun and all the planets. "
What you are saying is totally different. We KNOW with (reasonable) confidence there are no Jupiter sized objects in the Oort. We believe with (somewhat reasonable) confidence there is no Earth sized object in the Oort (although there is so much out there, I wouldn't bet on it).
What he said is the sum of all the smal
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Things like the Oort cloud tend to follow some kind of statistical distribution in the size of their constituent particles. If there really was a Solar mass worth of matter out there, the odds are extremely high that some of that matter would be in the form of Jupiter sized objects.
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I said "planetary mass." I didn't specify a planet. Mercury is a planet. A Mercury sized object could be out there somewhere. Mercury isn't the lower limit on planetary masses either - it's just the smallest one we have now that Pluto is demoted.
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I took exception to your estimation of the total mass of the Oort cloud, it is indeed quite conceivable that Mercury sized objects exist in the Oort cloud and haven't been detected yet, and they could be sent into the inner Solar System and collide with Earth. Only, the odds of this happening are quite spectacularly small. Except if you claim that there are a huge number of mercury-sized objects out there, in which case you'll also need to explain why we're not seeing their larger siblings, which we would s
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You are of course right. The solar mass stuff was my imperfect recollection of the understanding from >30 years ago.
Small is not nonexistent. I wasn't attempting to mislead - I was just wrong. Being wrong in this one case does take away from the message that I'm trying to keep in front of people: Astronomers and earth scientists believe that global cataclysm has occurred on Earth in the past, and will occur in the future. Although that
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Small is not nonexistent. I wasn't attempting to mislead - I was just wrong. Being wrong in this one case does take away from the message that I'm trying to keep in front of people: Astronomers and earth scientists believe that global cataclysm has occurred on Earth in the past, and will occur in the future. Although that outcome is unlikely today and tomorrow, even this century, in the fullness of time it's not just likely - it's certain. If we don't get humanity established on some other place in the mean time, it's game over for our species. There isn't any credible disagreement on this issue.
No disagreement from me there!
Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:5, Funny)
The Oort cloud could hold a planetary mass comet on a collision course with Earth and we would know about it only right before the event or just after.
It's probably a conspiracy to build A Really Big bypass.
Someone should go down to the local planning department to see if any demolition orders are on file.
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The Oort cloud could hold a planetary mass comet on a collision course with Earth and we would know about it only right before the event or just after.
It's probably a conspiracy to build A Really Big bypass.
Someone should go down to the local planning department to see if any demolition orders are on file.
Yeah right after I get out of the bath.
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Yeah right after I get out of the bath.
Remember to put on a bathrobe.
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Yeah right after I get out of the bath.
Remember to put on a bathrobe.
And don't leave your towel behind!
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Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy references. How could they ever be modded down?
Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:5, Funny)
I am pretty sure we would notice something was amiss during the collision as well.
Re:Oops, Oort. (Score:4, Informative)
Just to make you paranoid, the sum of the mass of oort cloud objects is far more than the mass of the sun and all the planets
Not supposed to be. The mass in the Oort cloud can be estimated by assuming some sort of mass function (i.e., a distributon of number, and thus total mass, with the mass of the object. Unless there a some unknown big objects out there, the total mass is order one [harvard.edu] Earth mass to maybe 100 [sciencemag.org] Earth masses. And, there have been negative searches [harvard.edu] in the IR for very large (Jupiter size and larger) objects, so it's almost certainly nowhere near as large as 1 solar mass.
It is interesting that the "knots" seen in the Helix Nebulae are likely to be super-comets (Sedna sized bodies ablating under the bright glare of the dying central star), so if you want to get a look at an Oort cloud, here is a good one [hubblesite.org].
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It is interesting that the "knots" seen in the Helix Nebulae are likely to be super-comets (Sedna sized bodies ablating under the bright glare of the dying central star), so if you want to get a look at an Oort cloud, here is a good one [hubblesite.org].
Interesting. Looks like a bloodshot blue eye staring at me!
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In space, no one can hear you scream Ow!?
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The Oort cloud could hold a planetary mass comet on a collision course with Earth and we would know about it only right before the event or just after.
Offsite backups seem like a good idea to me. How about you?
It's not like there's be anyone around to restore the backups, so what good would they be?
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WE are the backups.
Unless we get living humans off the planet, residing in a sustainable environment, then any large object hitting the earth could take us all out - permanently.
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Unless we get living humans off the planet, residing in a sustainable environment, then any large object hitting the earth could take us all out - permanently.
Who would be left to care? Does this increase people's individual chance of surviving, or just reduce the correlation?
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My knowledge of astrophysics has been garnered from reading Discover over the years, so I don't have a firm grasp on the concepts of accretion...
But if the Oort cloud was much greater in mass than the rest of the solar system, wouldn't a greater portion of the cloud have coalesced into planets and a larger star? I would have thought that the remnants of the accretion disc (what we know as the Oort cloud) could only be a certain percentage of the mass of the star it surrounds.
Or am I talking our of my ass?
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Oort not more massive than Sun (Score:2)
Ah... no - The Oort cloud estimated mass is greater than the Earth. About 50 times Earth as I recall, but that is much less than Jupiter even. Not more massive than the Sun.
First or Second? (Score:4, Informative)
It seems that Sedna [wikipedia.org] is sometimes regarded as an inner Oort Cloud object. But this seems to be disputed since it's a lot closer than the supposed location of the Oort Cloud but much farther away than the Kuiper Belt objects.
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They should rename it "Urectum"... (Score:3, Funny)
SQ372 has been perturbed by the gravity of Uranus
I can't help but feel there's a "Yo Mama" joke in there somewhere...
I thought it was Neo. (Score:1)
Was I the only one that saw a 'Matrix' reference there?
Re:I thought it was Neo. (Score:4, Funny)
Was I the only one that saw a 'Matrix' reference there?
Yes, yes you were...
interraction with the Kuiper Belt (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm willing to go as far as to say it was one of these objects that was responsible for the destruction of a now ghost planet between Mars and Jupiter.
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No, that was the Martians. [wikipedia.org]
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Re:interraction with the Kuiper Belt (Score:5, Interesting)
Let me be pedantic for a minute and state that the Kuiper Belt != the Oort cloud.
The Kuiper Belt and the scattered disc have been studied/observed quite a bit. The Oort cloud, on the other hand, is hypothetical (which certainly does not mean that it doesnt exist). The "boundaries" of the inner Oort cloud are thought to begin well beyond the scattered disk, which in turn extends beyond the Kuiper belt (although the two may well overlap).
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Oort Cloud is an epicycle (Score:1)
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Last I heard, it's more likely that the planet there was never able to form, because of the gravitational effect of Jupiter. It led to the protoplanets there becoming too energetic, and so when they came to collide they smashed each other to bits rather than accumulating together to form a planet.
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The scarring of the inner planets should mean nothing unless it can be proven that the bulk of the impacts occured around a relatively short period. That is: instead of random impacts over billions of years with little or no weathering to eliminate the scars.
Granted, the early solar system should have somewhat more chaotic before the early planets had "swept up" a lot of the debris, and one would expect more bombardment early on. However, this should not indicate anything about the formation o
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Not an Oort Cloud object (Score:4, Interesting)
Too much hyping. This object seems to be a scattered Kiper Belt object than an Oort Cloud object. Why? Its orbit crosses Neptune's orbit, which means it is strongly influenced by the planet's gravity. Sedna is different, because it never comes near Neptune. That doesn't mean that Sedna is an Oort Cloud object since its aphelion (most distant point of orbit) is not far enough. This newly-found object has a longer orbit, but compared to some long-period comets that originate from the Cloud and which can take several tens of thousands to millions of years to complete one orbit this is not at all unusual.
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This could be from another solar system (Score:3, Interesting)
Sedna [arxiv.org] is supposed to have resulted from an interaction between the Oort cloud and a distant passage of another Star in the past. That means that there is a good chance (30% or so) that it belonged to the OTHER stars Oort cloud.
2006 SQ372 has an even more irregular orbit which is unstable to boot. The same sort of arguments will apply to this object, and so there is a decent chance that it, too, will prove to come from another solar system.
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Go there.
(Of course, the dynamical arguments are interesting, and may even give a high probability, but to prove it IMHO we will have to send a spacecraft there. Don't hold your breath.)
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Once we (or, more likely, our machines) do go there, isotope analysis will make it pretty clear whether it comes from this solar system or not.
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Well, once you get out as far as the Oort cloud which is almost a light year away from the Sun, an object's membership in the solar system could become fairly tenuous. I could see how the Sun might approach another star and have its Oort cloud interact with the other star's Oort cloud, exchanging some objects and sending a few others into a closer orbit. There might even be rogue comets which just wander through interstellar space because they were kicked out of their solar system by just such an interactio
thoughts (Score:2)
juvenile nerd insult: (Score:1)
Oort Cloud = !exist? (Score:1)
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If you could show there's an Alpha Centaurian snow-ball making machine flinging comets into our solar system, then the need for the Oort cloud vanishes. However, until you do, you should expect people to scoff at such a theory and pick something that actually seems plausible.
At the moment, the Oort cloud is the most plausible, and the alternatives (like the extra-solar snow-ball flinger, or the even less plausible exploding planet) are ignored. This is as it should be.
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I'm curious as what kind of mechanism would cause a solar system body to "explode" into a bunch of comets? It seems plausible that if it happened in the earlier stages of the solar system, by now the only pieces left would be the ones in a highly elliptical orbit around the sun - the rest having either crashed into something or ejected out of the solar system by one of the gas giants. The only thing needed is the mechanism that would cause it in the first place.
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Juvenile time (Score:2)
That's what she said!
From web page of co-author (Score:1)